ROY Sutherland gone from 21st

cranedriver · Post by **cranedriver** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:54 am

Can't wait to see a purple and red tiger tank at Big Lots.....

This is sad news indeed especially for someone so new to the hobby....it means things just got more expensive for sure.

mikeg · Post by **mikeg** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:55 am

Uh-oh, the day after enzo passed, a nice ferrari goes from a few hundred thousand to over a million---- now we're back to a couple of hundred thousand (on average)

Dont come near my XD- I got new furniture, college funds, cable news financial talking heads and the like to contact..... see ya!!!!!!!!!

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:08 am

aferguson wrote:WM is notorious for f*cking over their suppliers. I"m sure it came as a huge blow to 21c when it happened. Problem is with credit so tight in the US right now it may be pretty tough for 21c to come up with the cash needed to get them through this rough period. If they can survive the next few months they'll probably be ok.

Yep, when attending Toy Fair all the talk you overhear in private conversations on the shuttle, etc. are how Wal-mart are horrible to deal with. Getting involved with them is very often the poison pill for a business.

In this case, Wal-mart apparently had a buyer change at a high level and this caused 21st to lose their placement there.

Also, Roy is not the only key player to have left, so there's no doubt they're in a bind.

Light.Inf.Scout · Post by **Light.Inf.Scout** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:11 am

This explains why TKO has been relatively silent and the 21st C website hasn't been updated in 2 months.

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:17 am

Coreyeagle48 wrote:Greetings:
I had heard 21st has had trouble filling orders with their suppliers.

I find it hard to believe that 21st would short Wal-mart on product, unless they were affected by issues out of their control (manufacturing delays in China, for example, due to the Olympics) and since everyone is probably having similar problems I'd be surprised if that was the sole reason for WM conflict.

Coreyeagle48 wrote: Walmart was probably less than impressed with the people returning 21st items because they were broken or had poor quality.

Yeah, but a big part of that is dumb people who buy these highly detailed models, fat finger them, then expect to return them when they break.

Even as a speciality mail-order retailer I occasionally get these kind of email: "I bought the WC51 truck for my 4 year old son's birthday, it broke, and I wanted to return it."

...Uhh, no!

I never understood how Wal-mart or 21st could absorb the breakage rate that must have been occurring with those models, when selling them to Joe Goober on the street without any screening or advice as to fragility, etc.

dragon53 · Post by **dragon53** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:05 am

If 21st leaves modeling, 1/18 and/or 1/32, I hope this motivates BBI to fill the void.

RAD 2112 · Post by **RAD 2112** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:36 am

That's unfortunate what happened to Roy.
I'm sure with his credentials he won't be unemployed for long.

Also, how does Target fit in to the equation with the random sightings of "Double Nuthin" and "Black 2" under the "Four Star Military" name?

just my .02

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:57 am

Hi everyone. I have been around, lurking mostly but not nearly as much as I have been able to in the past. I know that I have been long overdue to chime in but I needed to make sure of what little facts I do have.

At the moment- Roy is indeed no longer with 21st Century Toys as he has confirmed and said so himself at IPMS. Roy was one of a couple of my primary points of contact that I was authorized and given access to for my information while I have been serving as the Fan Club President.

Roy was the product development director for almost all of the product line. This was how I learned of almost all new products, paint schemes, updates, and long term future planning. Roy was not the only person to leave, my other contacts also are no longer with 21C. I do have some contact with the CEO of 21C but we do not speak nearly as frequently. My last communication with him was about a month ago and at that time I was told that 21C was going to continue forward that that changes to the company structure were required.

Currently there is no news coming out of 21C. At this time I am not certain what it all means. It could be a strategy to sure things up, make changes, who knows for sure. I am out of the loop and have been for close to 6 weeks. I am going to be patient and see what happens from here.

I have spoken with Roy several times since his unexpected departure along with other 21C comrades. He is doing GREAT and is already landing on his feet. He did a fine job for 21C and our hobby. He really was one of the best at what he did. Things change and will run a course, it doesn't always mean the end and sometimes brings about better things.

We are already seeing the slow up of product and I expect that it might continue for a little longer before we know for certain where things are headed. I for one can't say as I am not as informed as I used to be, that could change as well... we will see I guess. LOL

I am alive though and doing well. My daughter had some health issues last month which kept my attention and focus there. But everyone is well now and for the first time in many weeks I had time to see what was up here at the water cooler!

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:01 am

Also- I forgot to add this since people were curious.

Target: Yes the 4-star military stuff is in a test offering mode at Target. They seem to be doing really well based on the info that I have. The change in package design was at the request of Target. They wanted something Red and Black and Gray to be more exclusive to them. At the moment Target is the only way to obtain those paint schemes and if all goes well you can expect more in the future according to the CEO of 21C.

An expanded product offering to Target might also include the 1:18 line, but that not certain at the moment.

dragon53 · Post by **dragon53** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:02 am

TKO211:

Glad to hear you and your daughter are doing well.
Where/what is Roy doing now? Send him our regards.
Also, thanks for the many updates you've provided us.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:13 am

Right now Roy is on vacation! LOL Seriously he is. He left late last week. He said he had some serious R & R due to him and that he couldn't be happier to relax a little before he makes his next moves. Roy LOVES this hobby and his experience as a modeler drives him to be in that community. This is why he attended the IPMS show again this year. He worked up some cool decal sheets for P-47's for the modeling show and just made some connections there.

His plans (at least to me) are unclear at the moment though he did say that he has a few things brewing already and that he was pleased with the progress.

I have a good friendship with Roy and I am sure I will learn more in due time. As I do and at his approval I will try to keep everyone posted.

I wish like !@$& I had more news for you on the 21C front. The Target stuff looks really good though and seems to be a current area of focus along with TRU. Like I said... I guess I will just have to wait and see along with everyone else.

flayrah · Post by **flayrah** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:15 am

I hope this doesn't result in any hardships for Roy, and I wish him the best. At the same time, it doesn't surprise me in the slightlest that he is no longer with 21st. His presence encouraged new and innovative product developments that would have cost 21st money, and from what I've experienced 21st is far less interested in creation, than they are in generating as much money as possible any way possible, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME they manage to screw up their potential profitability.

Remember when Roy led the development of the 1/18 Spitfire, and designed it so the moulds could be readily changed to create different Spitfire versions? Now 21st has 'lost' the Spitfire mould. (I still wonder, they only had ONE mould?)

While other companies are specializing in making limited products to generally high-quality standards, 21st has the shotgun approach of making many different scales, with as many different re-paints, with 'questionable' quality standards. There has to be many factories producing all these different products, and if 21st hasn't shown they can manage the quality at one factory, how can they manage multiples?

And we all know about the F-4 Phantom and B-25 fiascos. Trying to be as objective as I can, I don't see how 21st has remained in busness this long.

tko - I hope your daughter is doing much better, sorry to hear about the health concerns

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:38 am

Hello TKO,

I am glad to hear from you and happy to read your daughter are doing well

phil

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:55 am

tko211 wrote:An expanded product offering to Target might also include the 1:18 line, but that not certain at the moment.

I really hope this Happens, target is really good at keeping the pegs full.

Yoxford · Post by **Yoxford** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:08 pm

God speed Roy! all the best to you and I hope you will soon have the opportunity to flex your exceptional modeling knowledge with a fine scale military toy company that can truly appreciate what you bring to the table.

A great picture, Gunther Rall and Roy

http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 640kf4.jpg

TKO very good to hear from you and that your Daughter is well.

RAD 2112 · Post by **RAD 2112** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:35 pm

TKO2112,
Glad to hear the family is doing well!
It's always rough when the kids get sick.

Thank you for the update... just in the nick of time!

You mentioned that the 4-Star Military was a "Test Offering" @ Target.
Was that Nationwide or just in certain areas?

thanks!

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:29 pm

coreystinson wrote: Also, Roy is not the only key player to have left, so there's no doubt they're in a bind.

BTW, I actually do want to clarify something about what I said previously: I do not in fact know that Roy left, apparently someone else here does? I was just following up (and making assumption) based upon that other information. I've never spoken to Roy outside of one time at Toy Fair (seemed like a great guy). I thought I might just publicly clarify that so I don't appear to have a bunch of secret, inside info (because I don't).

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:46 pm

This is sad news but may turn out to be a blessing for us all. Roy has shown what can be done with plastic toys and who is to say he can't provide this niche again with a new company?

TKO, glad to hear from you again. Even if you don't have the scoop on 21C I would still love to see you post! Glad your daughter is better now.

Everyone is correct with the dangers of trying to expand your niche. My firm used to sell mainly through dealers and built the core of our business there. When housing really heated up we changed this focus and sold directly to the big building companies. The low-margin high-sales approach can be a great way to grow your business, expand your product line and gain credit. The downside is you are dependent upon the volume and when it goes away, it hurts terribly.

I doubt any of us in their shoes would have turned away WM, and hind sight is always 20/20...

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:08 am

i just realized that this means my dreams of a 1/18 Mosquito are pretty much out the window. So now i have the choice of getting a 1/14 scale one or a 1/24 scale one or nothing.

Bah.

Jagdpanther · Post by **Jagdpanther** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:57 am

Nice to see you posting again tko211! Glad to hear your daughter is well. I sure hope all this gets straighten out soon.

skypirate · Post by **skypirate** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:12 am

tko211 wrote:The change in package design was at the request of Target. They wanted something Red and Black and Gray to be more exclusive to them.

That seems like bad marketing. Target brand identity conflicting with more appropriate color schemes. If you're trying to sell hamburgers, you go with the warm, fire colors, red, orange and yellow (McDonalds, Wendys, Jack-in-the-Box), not cool colors, blues and silvers (Long Johns). If you're trying to sell military, earth tones/camo. When we scan down those aisles, we're looking for what we're accustomed to, military colors, "Hey, there's a big area of green, let's go have a look." But, I guess it's better to lose the battle of packaging, than the war of staying in business. Just an unfortunate decision on Target's part and an example of the big two's power to influence products.

I still don't understand the rationale of releasing german tanks and chinese infantry.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:45 am

The big question now is, who will replace Roy?????

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:58 am

the bigger question is will anyone replace Roy. Or is 21c just going to fade away...?

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:04 am

If we don't see the KT & 88 this year then I feel that 21st is going to fade away

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:21 am

21st is probably going to contract designers instead of having one on staff full time. I think they've done this before with older stuff? The marines were designed by a guy as special project. It may be likely that if/when 21st gets some dough together for new projects they'll hire Roy on a project-specific contract basis.

Of course, i know nothing about the details of the situation and am just speculating.

And just think, we could of been playing with our 1:18 Admiral F-4s for about 6 months now if 21st hadn't blown smoke back in Feb. 2007...