POST PAK 40 & NEW HALFTRACK FINDS AND DISCUSSION HERE!

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:14 pm

All my 21c vehicles were in good shape (the previous posts made me go and check my M-16, which has no paint or tooling flaws.) Rowsdower, take your Pioneerwagen out of the box - its more of an exciting vehicle than one might think

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:15 pm

tmanthegreat wrote:Rowsdower, take your Pioneerwagen out of the box - its more of an exciting vehicle than one might think

Lol, I will make sure to do that tomorrow. The gun sure looks interesting.

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:55 pm

Quixo...:

Don't know the source of the small trailer mount pic. I have seen similar mounts before in shows and displays.

Same mount was in an episode of Band of Brothers near the end when they sneak across the river for prisioners.

The quad mount was uised on many different mounts and many trucks all the way up to VN where they were on early gun trucks.

I also saw a quad mount in the same mount sitting in front of a VFW hall on Route 9 around Princeton, NJ. It sat there for 20 years and then disapeared. Every time I passed I always thought about hooking the trailer up and taking it home.

A VFW post is where I got my 57mm Anti-tank gun. Two guns sat there for years, then they expanded their parking lot and picked the gun up with a loader and dumped it over a fence into a vacant lot. Went there with a crew and a WC-62 Dodge and pulled it out, fixed one wheel and took it home. It took about a year going thru channels with the Army and ATF before my club got paperwork on the gun. The second gun just disapeared.

TTT

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:13 pm

Rows....

The Pioneerwagon has just the most awesome little gun.

The gun is a 2.8cm, PzB41 Anti-tank gun. It was developed in the '30's but as soon as the war started the Germans found out that the gun was ineffective againt our armor and the gun was used against personnel and soft skin trucks.

It was mounted on armor and also used in two ground mounts. One normal wheeled mount was towed behind small trucks and Kettengrads. The other had funny little tiny wheels used by parachite troops and alpine mountain troops.

I have both guns in 1/6, both with great detail. I'll post pics if you're interested.

Now, my only complaint with 21C hapens to be with this gun. It doesn't traverse on the Pioneerwagon. It elevates but doesn't traverse. Does that make any sense?

TTT

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:26 pm

The gun on my XD Panzerpioneerwagen has the full range of motion - elevation & traverse. It may just be a little stiff on yours, TTT, as it was on mine initially. I agree its an awesome little piece, but I can't wait for the Hannomag with its larger 7.5cm cousin mounted on the front

BTW, any pictures of the mounted versions, either of the real thing or of your 1:6 piece? Thanks

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:09 pm

grunt1 wrote:You should contact their customer service folks.

It might be a while before they actually have replacements to ship out though. Seems like they are last on the WM distribution list. Walton 4:11

Good luck on waiting for replacement parts, we are still waiting for the screw covers.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:00 am

VMF115 wrote: Good luck on waiting for replacement parts, we are still waiting for the screw covers.

Well I had some time to really look over my M16 and it's such a mess it would need more than just parts. The right fender is only painted a quarter of the way up, the front shield on the turret isn't painted and various other parts of the interior and exterior aren't painted. Somebody was really asleep at the switch.

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:08 am

tmanthegreat wrote: BTW, any pictures of the mounted versions, either of the real thing or of your 1:6 piece? Thanks

I would like to see some pics as well.

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:12 am

Rowsdower please let me know if you will contact 21st. Thanks.

phil

Rowsdower · Post by **Rowsdower** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:53 am

I can't send out email right now but I got the address [email protected] off the 21st site. I will mail them my laundry list of problems later today.

Maybe one of the folks here with experience dealing with 21st can let us know what we need to include.

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:34 pm

Rowsdower wrote:Maybe one of the folks here with experience dealing with 21st can let us know what we need to include.

I hope as it would be good to know exactly how to deal with them.

phil

grunt1 · Post by **grunt1** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:50 pm

The one or two times I did contact them, it was by phone. They mailed out the replacement parts at no cost to me. That was probably at least a year or more ago and was for the 1/9th Stuart.

Anyway, always use the info on their website or this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=54794#54794

Note that I added the 1-877 toll free number for 21st Century. That should help if you were worried about fees.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program: Pak40 and Half track sightings..

grockwood · Post by **grockwood** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:57 pm

I noticed some issues with the 251 "Stuka" 21st century used the roof section from the 251/22. It has the cutout for the Pak 40 gun to swivel, no front mounted mg and the mounting points for the "I" beem supports for the Pak 40. However the photo on the box shows the correct parts.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:16 pm

21c recycling parts would make sense... The vehicle in its current state is still well executed, but the forward MG would have been a nice touch. It would have been accurate as well: check out this site, if only for the numerous pictures of the Stuka zu Fuss and not the language its written in.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... D%26sa%3DG

grockwood · Post by **grockwood** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:26 pm

They could have used the top of the original 251 or even the pioneer halftrack.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:24 pm

I lucked out tonight and volunteered to ring the bell for an hour at my local Walmart. Why was I lucky? I nailed all 4 vehicles!! Booyeah!! Sure enough, 3 complete sets, 1 left! I am thrilled with everything except the glaring error on the Zu Fuss. I don't get how this could be mistaken. Oh well. I think this is one of the biggest goofs so far IMHO. It's easy enough to move the forward bracket up to it's correct position, but the missing MG is glaring....

Other than that, the M-16 is primo!! A figure with the arms and legs removed fits in it perfectly. I repositioned the gunsight to clear the figure's head and I'm good to go. Well done 21st on this one!

I love the Pak 40! Just what the doctor ordered!! The ammo really adds a lot to the gun. Once again, well done!!

I'm set except for the Mig 15. I'm a happy boy!

-Ski

KAMIKAZE · Post by **KAMIKAZE** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:11 pm

No bloody halftracks here!

Mark

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:13 pm

I stand corrected. When I started playing with the Pioneer "251". I thought the 2.8 gun was fixed in position. Sure enough, it was just a little stiff. Now free...Thanks for the correction.

TTT

warhawker · Post by **warhawker** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:00 am

Kamikaze wrote:

No bloody halftracks here!

If you come up to Dallas for the holidays, I can point you to the WMs that do have them here in the area.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:21 pm

Sounds like some of you guys have some concerns in regards to your M16 Half tracks. I can see from the thread that these concerns range from holes in ammo drums to missing paint on the front sections and anything else in between. First let me say that I know very little about vehicles I am more of a plane guy as you already know, so I don't know exactly how much help I can be as far as accuracy is concerned.

My best suggestion would be this. If your M16 looks like it has problems or doesn't look they way you feel it should then I would simply exchange it through WM for one that looks better to you. I say this because I feel it will be the fastest way to resolve any issues and get you back on the road. Waiting on 21c to address, understand, locate, and ship new parts or even a whole new product to you could take a lot longer than you may be willing to patiently wait. The fact is that 21c Customer Service dept is manned by personel that has many other duties and roles to fill for the company need.

Frankly they are better suited to support retailers, hobby shops, e-tailers. The individual request easily have the ability to bog down that system. Please understnad that this does not mean 21c doesn't care for the individual fans. They really do. My post as Fan Club President is proof that they wish to engage the fans directly with the understanding that the majority efforts have to aimed at future product development and product distribution. 21c does try hard to address as many of the individual needs when they can but frankly they are simply not able to answer every single question or concern from each fan. I am sure that they would like to be able to but it is simply unrealistic to think that they can keep up with all of us collectors.

So again, this is why I would suggest simply exchanging it through WM. I know that it seems like many people have issues with this vehicle on this board but it simply isn't the case in reality. There are only about 60 of us here who are vocal and post on regular basis. Of that 60 only about 5 or 6 have logged any issues. As a whole the M16 is selling VERY well (this is GREAT news for lovers of ground vehicles).

One other suggestion: This is just friendly advise NOT anything more. Paint issues, broken parts, missing parts are all fine to discuss, debate and even complain about. But as a fan base we might want to keep the "rivet counting" to a minimum. I say this for only 1 reason. IF we get all wound up about a hole here or a hole there and IF it gets just out of hand enough 21c will start to think the demand and complexity of building certain vehicles isn't worth it. I can honestly tell you that our chances of seeing more exotic vehicles, in larger numbers, with more new product development greatly will increase if we don't let those kinds of minor issues get out of hand.

I am not suggesting we stop talking about it, debate and historical accuracy is part of the experience with this medium of toys. And frankly it is kinda fun to a degree. But as with anything in life it can get out of hand. I am not EVEN saying this has gotten out of hand. Frankly I don't think it has, but we have seen it happen before in the past and I for one would rather see more cool exotic pieces in 07 as opposed to hearing 21c management hem and haw over the decision to "green light" projects due to speculated over reaction from a vocal few.

You guys are all great! I love hanging out here and it is a fun little distraction from the daily grind. Thanks for everyones input and overall I would say thanks in supporting these latest halftrack vehicles. IT shows 21c that exoctic variations do have a home in peoples collections. I hope we see more projects like these in the future!

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:15 pm

i tend to agree with your comments, TKO. i don't think nit picky criticisms are practical in this hobby. Given that these are still classified as toys and have to appeal to a broad range of buyers and have to be able to sell at reasonable prices, it is unrealistic to expect every detail will be covered on every model.

Not that we shouldn't keep pushing the big 3 (21c, BBI, AT) for better quality, better realism, better quality control, etc but beyond a certain point it is ultimately self defeating, i think.

The people behind the companies that produce these items are just like anyone else, and constant criticism, nit-picking and the like gets discouraging after a time and they may just develop a 'why bother' attitude, especially when it comes to borderline projects, which probably encompass alot of the things we want to have produced.

Sometimes, being reasonably close to accurate is good enough...even if it means not quite the right bogies, or hatch covers, etc are on the model. As long as the important details are covered, really, that's all we can ask for or expect.

For those who want greater accuracy, they can treat these products as raw material and have the fun of modifying them to higher standards, or they can buy more detailed and accurate model kits and make those to exacting standards.

I also agree that for the most part the comments regarding the new 1/2 tracks and pak have been very positive and favourable (my 'zzzz's' over the pionerwagon aside..

) and they seem to be causing alot of excitement.

I think the folks at 21c deserve two big thumbs up for making so much great new armour, something many of us have been clamouring for them to do for years. And i really hope these new items do well, so we can see lots more over the years to come. There are certainly a wealth of great possiblities, even just from the basic chassis they've already produced (especially the panzer IV).

billgiff · Post by **billgiff** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:52 pm

I agree

These models/ toys are great building blocks for finer detail. I for one (and I know there are many others) customize every vehicle and figure. I take the base vehicle and customize it to my standards. The scale, assembly and detail of the vehicles are a steal at their prices. I can't wait to get my paws on the M16 halftrack.

I hope 21st and BBI keep pumping out product at these prices and quality.

MandaloreSC · Post by **MandaloreSC** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:10 pm

I agree with aferguson. I have some Friday 4:59 PM toys at home and I think they are okay. I got a Fallschirmjäger Krieger on a Private Jäger card and the amo pouch is missing. Also I have a Hanomag with a broken wheel. I glued the wheel and this Private Krieger is still on card, and I have a smile on my face everytime I see this error figure. I agree that 21st has a problem with the quality control, but hey, what do you pay for those new halftracks? 22 bucks? I think for this price you really can't expect a high quality, super detailed and perfectly painted toy. I'm a big fan of XD and I'd like to support them. I don't care if one of the toys I've bought isn't perfect. It motivates me to repair it or customize it. Most of those vehicles or figure problems you can fix with a little bid of paint or glue.

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:11 pm

While I agree with Aferg and most of what TKO is saying (and as you all know I am a big 21C fan). I would suggest the following for TKO:

The problems pointed out with evidentally more than one of the M-16's, in our small circle of hoby fanatics is not a "hole" or two.

The .50cal drums. in a few cases are glued on the guns backwards. This is not a "broken part", it is a part glued in backwards and glued in so well that prying the drum off to re-glue in properly can cause serious damage to the drum mount.

A problem only solved by returning to entire toy or else 21C providing a new gun turret or just the drums for our guys to cut off and re-glue.

I would this this problem would be more serious than a "hole" or two.

Again, I am a fan and as a matter of fact, my M-16 is perfect, so don't misunderstand my comments as a 21C bash.

TTT

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:18 pm

I totally agree--while the quality issue controls are something that should be addressed and improved upon, I know it's not easy to crank out large volumes of something like this in a very short time frame, especially when much of requires hand assembly.
As far as the "missed" detail or "technical error"--that is what makes these great for such a wide audience. Probably 95% of the buyers would never notice or could care less, and for the 5% of us that might get a wee bit obsessive sometimes, that's what customization is for--and we are getting a great base for doing so.