Phantom II for 89.99?

[thetatau87]

The only difference is that AT's prices were too high (IMHO), and 21st's prices are what they should be.. (Think about it.. Avenger $69.99.. Phantom II (A little bigger) at $20.00 more) Seems reasonable huh???
Now, I am not saying that AT's Phantom isn't worth $140... It just might be.. But NOT having a choice and paying a higher price for something is a monopoly and we should give credit to 21st for giving people a choice.. The same would apply if roles were reversed..

Competition keeps prices affordable for the "regular joe" and keeps many people in the hobby that would be priced out of it..

I don't think that $140 is unreasonable price point for AT. If it stays at that price AT's F-4 will need to be head and shoulders above the 21c F-4 though.

The main thing to consider is that AT sells in small quantities through online retailers only. 21c sells in mass quantities through WM. It's apples to oranges to compare WM to online prices. Even 21c prices are higher online that at WM. A $40 plane at WM is $60+shipping online.

Take the BBI F-18 as an example. It is currently selling online for $104. The F-4 is much bigger and had better be more detailed and accurate. I bet that the 21c F-4 will be priced over $104 when sold online.

I guess the real question is will the F-4 be sold at WM for $89.99 or is that the intended price for online retailers as well?

[bdr_ws6]

I am a newbie to these forums but I thought I would chime in on what seems to be the big discussion. I am new to collecting the aircraft, but I have been in the model car scene since 1999. Many different companys make the same car. I'll use this as an example; Maisto and AutoArt both make a Nissan 350Z. Maistos is priced around $25, and you can find them in stores all over. AutoArts is $80, and you can only find it in Hobby shops, mainly online. AutoArt has much higher quality however, where Maisto is what I would consider an 'entry level' car. Still has good quailty and details, but its not as great as AutoArts. Both are good sellers and all that. They just happened to make the same car. I think that is similar to this situation (even though it seems fishy on the timing of the annoucments). I don't know the difference in quality is between AT and 21st as I have never seen an AT in person. In pictures they seem to have better detail and such. So relate that back to my car model example. I hope this makes since. I may be missing the big picture too but I just decieded to chime in.

[p51]

we should close this thread, honestly this kind of heat can make companies pull out sources to keep from this kind of thread.
i like the fact we have Jason and TKO and Mike.
think about this when posting things that may slander or cause a company just to stop allowing us to know things.

VERY well said. Just wanted to rephrase this.

[immeww2]

I think JR has a good point. We don't want to shoot ourselves in the foot by being too critical of what the manufacturers do and don't do. I think we have to be thankful that we do have reps from each company that will share info on this board in order to keep us posted as to what is coming down the pipeline. I'd hate to lose this communication.

[tkjaer21]

Well, I personally think that BBI or AT should say that they are coming out with an A-10 or F-14. Both are A-list planes, and that way, we would finally get one from 21C. All would be forgiven from BBI or AT for pulling out and pushing 21C to do it since they are the largest of the 3 companies in the 1:18 market. In any case, we will buy anything that comes out as collectors.

I think that both AT and 21C will have success with the F-4 Phantom as they are both A-list planes that we as collectors want badly. Just give me a NAVY version, and I am happy. FLY NAVY!

[scbvideoboy]

I am a newbie to these forums but I thought I would chime in on what seems to be the big discussion. I am new to collecting the aircraft, but I have been in the model car scene since 1999. Many different companys make the same car. I'll use this as an example; Maisto and AutoArt both make a Nissan 350Z. Maistos is priced around $25, and you can find them in stores all over. AutoArts is $80, and you can only find it in Hobby shops, mainly online. AutoArt has much higher quality however, where Maisto is what I would consider an 'entry level' car. Still has good quailty and details, but its not as great as AutoArts. Both are good sellers and all that. They just happened to make the same car. I think that is similar to this situation (even though it seems fishy on the timing of the annoucments). I don't know the difference in quality is between AT and 21st as I have never seen an AT in person. In pictures they seem to have better detail and such. So relate that back to my car model example. I hope this makes since. I may be missing the big picture too but I just decieded to chime in.

Yeah another diecast car collector! PM me and I'll send you a picture of some of mine.

In regards to this thread, people want the F-4 but are expressing their opinion of the way 21C handled the release.

The difference is, with the diecast cars manufactors there are 100's if not 1,000s of different cars to choose from from many companies and quality levels.

There are only a few toy compaines doing collector quality 1/18 military stuff with a very small product line. There are TOO MANY other planes vehicles figures etc...that should be done regardless of "A" listing, to have those same few companies doing duplicates.

granted business is business and companies can do what they want, however I feel they are hurting their own sales by duplication. Isn't 21 C doing P-51 schemes that BBI have done already? Why?

If there's prototypes collecting dust on a shelf somewhere, get 'em going!

Taking the customer fan loyality, $$$ and support for granted will is not good business.

DH

[KAGNEW]

I want a F-4E and F-4D to start
then i'll have to work through the rest of alphbet

[der Vogelfänger]

[quote="nfafan"] .......partially quoted......
This is also the version that MY WIFE wants - as this was "our plane" when I served in the USAF. I used to have a built 1/32nd Revell F4E on our coffee table for years! I'm lucky to have a wife that's first in the car for any air show or road trip to an air museum. And with her buy-in, price will not be an issue for whoever is the first one to come out with a USAF F4E.

Wow, are you fortunate to have a spouse who WANTS to be around airplanes WITH YOU.....and to partially quote Dr. Martin Luther King, ..."I have a Dream..."

dV

[Teamski]

Well, I am personally getting sick and tired of this "Me too" bulls**t. Instead of trying to undercut an honest competitor, show some balls, 21st, and do something new and different. The industry is big enough for both of you--and instead of wasting time and money creating duplicates just trying to show up your competitors, try to come up with something new that takes the whole industry farther. So when is the Hellcat or F-16 announcement coming? Where's the M1A1? Or is bbi a little better connected in China than you want deal with?

You are being pretty unfair here. Both companies developed their planes at the same time. 21st is producing for a far larger audience, so they can offer a cheaper price. It's a question of production numbers, not backstabbing..... Business is business.

I am gutted that this happened once again, however. I can't see paying the additional $60 for the Admiral plane in this case. I really wish a communication flow could be established to avoid this sort of thing happening for the 4th time!!!!

-Ski

[digger]

If you guys look back to a post Andrew made in about november 04, he noted that 21C had both the F86 and the 262 on the horizon. Hell, the first 262 proto was shown years ago, so if he who shows a proto first has dibs, well then you get the idea...
Would I rather have 2 different planes rather than 2 of the same, yes. But let's be fair about how we interpret the facts..

[Birddog]

People keep saying that each company has had their plane (the F-4) in development for the same period of time, how do you know? Has 21st been keeping you informed of what is going on with their F-4 before the announcement this week? Just wondering how everyone that claims this knows that's true.

It sure would be nice to see pictures of 21st 1/18 F-4 prototype like Admiral Toys. Shouldn't they have one by now for the planned release date?

[Teamski]

People keep saying that each company has had their plane (the F-4) in development for the same period of time, how do you know? Has 21st been keeping you informed of what is going on with their F-4 before the announcement this week? Just wondering how everyone that claims this knows that's true.

It sure would be nice to see pictures of 21st 1/18 F-4 prototype like Admiral Toys. Shouldn't they have one by now for the planned release date?

Well obviously both planes have been in the works for quite a while. It takes some time to create a prototype, and both companies have one. So, to say that 21st built a prototype in 2 days in response to Admiral is not what I consider possible.





-Ski

[Birddog]

How do you know that the F-4 in 21st poster is 1/18?

Couldn't it be their 1/32 scale F-4?

We've all seen what good photography can do to a scale. And there is nothing there to judge its size.

[CW4USARMY]

I thought Jason already posted that the picture in 21st's poster is actually the 1/32nd version and that they (21st) have not shown any evidence (pictures) of a 1:18 scale prototype.

[Jericoeagle1]

I've looked hard at that photo and it looks 1/32 scale to me. The feeling of "mass" is just not there.

[digger]

People keep saying that each company has had their plane (the F-4) in development for the same period of time, how do you know? Has 21st been keeping you informed of what is going on with their F-4 before the announcement this week? Just wondering how everyone that claims this knows that's true.

For the record, I did not say this about the F-4 - just about the F-86 and 262. Think what you will about the F-4...I know it is a sore subject around here and I don't plan on taking sides...
I would hate for this forum to become like one of the 1/6th boards that deteriorates into a battle among company loyalists, be it Dragon, DiD or whoever. Companies will battle, we as fans should stick together, above the fray, the best we can.

[kevrut]

You said it Digger.

[Birddog]

I agree with what you are saying Digger.

My post was not directed at anyone in particular as you seem to have taken it. I appologize if you took it that I was singling you out. I wasn't.

As fans, I think we should all be able to ask questions about what any manufacturer tells or shows us though....

21st has great products.

This is the best hobby by far and it wouldn't be that way if it were not for all that is a part of it....

[aferguson]

we're really beating this to death gang. The fact is both 21c and AT are coming out with the Phantom. The whys and wherefores of that fact are irrelevant at this point. It's happening.

Buy both, one or neither at your discretion but going over and over and over and over it isn't going to change anything, nor will it make them co-operate in future, if they don't see it in their respective company's best interest.

Let's move on to brighter days shall we?

[KAGNEW]

AND lots of Migs to fight them