F4 Phantom on a back burner

Black_Dragon_One · Post by **Black_Dragon_One** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:25 am

remember guys put your money were it count.... support AT and you have a better chance of getting new stuff rather then repaint which cost much less to produce...

that does not mean i will not buy 21st stuff

just that i put money up for any one is help keep competitiveness going..

i will take a Credit union quote

when toy company compete we all win....

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:36 am

Black_Dragon_One wrote:remember guys put your money were it count.... support AT and you have a better chance of getting new stuff rather then repaint which cost much less to produce...

that does not mean i will not buy 21st stuff

just that i put money up for any one is help keep competitiveness going..

i will take a Credit union quote

when toy company compete we all win....

I agree buy both if you can. Even if it's the same plane, in this case the me-262 or maybe the f-4. lets
I dont mind if they make the same planes from time to time,,,but as long as long as it does not happen to offten.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:42 am

Sabrefan wrote:Geez, if the retail price for the 21st Century ME262 is 90 dollars, what will it be for the B-25? Oh well, better head to the bank for a medium bomber loan.

I wounder what the whole sale price is on the me-262.

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:16 am

where does it say the 262 retails for anywhere near $90?? It is $65 (or less) at BCT, whose prices are not really low and it will probably be $40 at WM.

21c said their F-4 is going to retail for $89.99 and i'm sure it will.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:11 am

Guess will have to wait and see.....it should be interesting though.

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:02 am

How much are the Avengers going for at Walmart? The ME262 will come in a box the same size as the Avenger comes in.

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:22 am

doesnt matter.......if it did BCT wouldn't be charging $65....they'd be charging $80 like they did with the Avenger.

Light.Inf.Scout · Post by **Light.Inf.Scout** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:19 am

Also $65 at the MTS.

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:10 am

I think if theres anything to come out of this, and most of you who have been around since the days of Rex, know that we have to take what we hear with a grain of salt as they tend to talk out their fanny when it comes to pieces they're going to cover, and release dates. I'm also in the same boat with many of you over their trouncing AT's F4, only to make Admiral rethink their decision, which really only hurts us as their base, and continues to show 21st in a bad light.

It's ashamed either way.

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:06 am

aferguson wrote:where does it say the 262 retails for anywhere near $90?? It is $65 (or less) at BCT, whose prices are not really low and it will probably be $40 at WM.

21c said their F-4 is going to retail for $89.99 and i'm sure it will.

There is no way the 262 is $40 at WM. I will bet you a 262 that even if this jet sniffs WM - which I doubt it will - it will not be $40. It is in a bigger box, which means more shelf-space, which means higher price point 9 out of 10 times..

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:02 am

well, as i said, time will tell..

..and on the subject of the box, i still don't know why they had to use a bigger box. The 262 is only a bit bigger than the F-86 and that fit into the standard box no problem. In fact the 262 is shorter than the F-86, and that's the critical dimension for fitting in the standard box. It's a bit spanier but only a couple of inches and that shouldnt' be a problem as the wings are removed when packed in the box.

It's odd they would use a bigger box which will add to retailer/etailer shelf space concerns and everyone's shipping costs...

It may be that it's a one piece wing on 21c's 262...but boy if that really raises the price point that ain't gonna be good for sales...

If it turns out to be $79.99 at WM, as per the bigger box's price point, then we are supposed to believe the F-4, which is probably three times the size in bulk and complexity will be $89.99? And if it isn't $89.99 it really calls what happened at Toy Fair into question, doesn't it?

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:49 am

I agree that it is odd the 262 is in a big box - but we can also agree that it is a fact at this point, not speculation. So I think it is foolhearted to think this jet will be $40 anywhere. We also have no reason to believe it is even going to Walmart. It looks like 1:18 AC are done at WM. Anyone seen any on the reset page? It surely looks like the $80 birds are done - anyone see any Bunker Hill Avengers at Wally?

I think what happened at TF with the Phantom has already been called in question. I think we all see what happened as 21C taking the competition head on, with a little bit of hot air in the mix. We all know there will be no phantom in 2007, but really is this the first time a company has stated a date, or price, that turned out to be too soon or too little? Come on...

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:09 am

as i said somewhere else; 21c would not have proceeded with the 262 without a major retailer committed to taking it. August is a slow month and it's not unusual to not see any new toys at WM or even TRU.

At the end of october if things havent changed, i'll start to think you're right. Until then i'm very confident the 262, BH Avenger and (eventually) Phantom will be at WM, or at the very least TRU and probably at both.

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:53 am

My guess is that the 262 needed a bigger box due to the wing mounted engines. They probably take up quite a bit more room than straight wings do. This is the first 2 engined bird to be produced other than the P-38, remember (which also came in quite the crate).

I think it was inevitable that a bird would get cancelled or indefinitely delayed due to 21st's one-upmanship as demonstrated with both the Sabre and the 262. I think the time is now for 21st to reaffirm that the F-4 is in production and will be in stores in the next four months as they *promised* at toyfair. 21st has stated that to go from ordering production of a mocked-up piece to seeing it on toy shelves is 8 months. This has basically been confirmed by the 10 month span from 21st's first announcement about the 262 last November.

So TK, you gonna have some pics up of the Phantom paints samples or test shots for us in the next month or two?

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:22 am

aferguson wrote:..August is a slow month and it's not unusual to not see any new toys at WM or even TRU...

This is not true - August has usually been a big month in our hobby. This has proven true again this year with the bbi at Target, the Pak 40 hanomag and new figs at TRU, and the Hellcat release.

EnemyAce wrote: 21st has stated that to go from ordering production of a mocked-up piece to seeing it on toy shelves is 8 months...

Even for such a big, complicated piece? And how do we know it has even been mocked up yet? As said, we all know it is not coming this year, no need to give TKO a hard time about it..

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:46 am

EnemyAce wrote: 21st has stated that to go from ordering production of a mocked-up piece to seeing it on toy shelves is 8 months...

digger wrote: Even for such a big, complicated piece? And how do we know it has even been mocked up yet? As said, we all know it is not coming this year, no need to give TKO a hard time about it..

Honestly I think we *should* be giving 21st a hard time about it if they don't produce after *promising* they would *in writing*. They also showed their model unless I'm mistaken? (I could be). Remember, they came out with their statement after Admiral announced theirs for Christmas, causing Admiral to delay if not cancel theirs. If 21st would have either not announced theirs, then I probably would be getting an F-4 in a few months time. As it is, *if* we do not see one from 21st by the end of the year, or at least a firm date or *something* that indicates its imminent arrival, then 21st has deliberately lied to me and the rest of us as a business ploy to damage their competitor, and if that is true I may have very well purchased my last 21st Century product. Considering how long they've been doing this, size and complication should be something they understand by now.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:40 pm

I don't think 21st ever showed a 1/18 F4 prototype....they did show one, supposedly the 1/18 protoype///but it looked like the 1/32 version...

I could be mistaken though.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:07 pm

21st f-4 looked to me to be in 1:32

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:00 pm

VMF115 wrote:21st f-4 looked to me to be in 1:32

You're right, I think it was a 1/32nd and they used it in a discussion/news post about a 1:18 scale. Same type thing as their paint scheme post in their Area 21 news.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:22 pm

I think everyone here knows the AT 1/18 F-4 is "real". There are some here that can attest to seeing it in person at Toy Fair. To this date we have not seen anything to prove that 21st's F-4 prototype is really 1/18 scale. If 21st didn't already have one developed as far as AT's by the first of this summer, I don't think we are going see one from them by years end unless it is a rushed job. We all know how that turns out. I hope 21st proves me wrong for all of our sakes, but I'm not holding my breath.

As far as the Toy Fair issue is concerned.....well I know what I believe........

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 21st was supposed to unveil their 1/18 F-4 at Comic Con? Didn't they say that that is why they weren't planning an announcement at Toy Fair so that they could surprise everyone and have one of the 1/18 paint masters for display? Of course I know things probably changed in light of the TF thing.

Studly · Post by **Studly** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:49 pm

I recon that BBi should release thieres first in best dressed and having it out first they would make healthy competition for 21C after all its a Business world

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:55 pm

Studly wrote:I recon that BBi should release thieres first in best dressed and having it out first they would make healthy competition for 21C after all its a Business world

bbi is only doing the F-4 in 1:32 not 1:18th

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:17 pm

EnemyAce wrote:
Honestly I think we *should* be giving 21st a hard time about it if they don't produce after *promising* they would *in writing*. They also showed their model unless I'm mistaken? (I could be). Remember, they came out with their statement after Admiral announced theirs for Christmas, causing Admiral to delay if not cancel theirs..

First of all, TKO is not 21C so if you want to give 21C a hard time don't call out TKO. Also, let me get this straight - if AT delays their F4 it is OK but for 21C then no? If bbi says - "in writing" - that the Hellcat will be out in Feb. but it is actually August that is OK, but 21C deserves a "hard time"? If AT says it is making a Zero but then no, it is OK, right? Let's be fair here guys..

grunt1 · Post by **grunt1** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:28 pm

Aren't these pictures (except for the toy fair one) of the 1:18th prototype?

http://www.sshqdb.com/coppermine/displa ... =522&pos=3

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:33 pm

No way. That is a small scale model.

AT had a true 1:18 Proto..should have never let 21C scare them off of it.

Small Scale Military Headquarters

F4 Phantom on a back burner

winner

Re: winner

?

proto