Phantom II for 89.99?

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grunt1
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Post by grunt1 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:08 pm

Makes me sick to my stomach knowing how much more the Phantom means to AT than to 21C. :roll:

I understand the business side of the issue. 21C spent it's dollars working up the prototype and likely perceives it's return on investment to be at risk so they had to pull the trigger. I don't they are targeting anyone.

TKO's right in that distribution is the key to price. Make 500 and you sell them for $140, make 2500 and you can sell them for half that.

If you ask the average person what Intel does, they will say they have fast computer processors. If you ask an Intel employee what they do, they will tell you they are a manufacturing company. Anyone can design the fastest computers in the world, it's coming up with a process that allows you manufacture and sell them for $100 that separates the winners from the also-rans.

Anyway I'm torn with this one. Excited to see 21C release a new aircraft, but desperately wish that the announcement had been a T-34, A-10, or anything truly new... :?
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Post by kevrut » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:08 pm

I think this is great! :P

I don't see why anyone has to dog 21C for this. It's not like anyone can predict the future. If this takes a long time to get into production, it's not like this was a spur of the moment decision to release it. TF is when to expect new releases. :roll:

I like this plane. Is the 21C version a one or two-seater?
(I can't tell, I don't know much about this plane.)
Maybe I'll have to get one from each company.

Keep'em coming. :P
Kevin.

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Post by KAGNEW » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:15 pm

WELL
i think my money goes to AT on this one!

i hope BBi beats 21st to market with there secret F-4 project.
the Wally world vs K mart & Target mindset must taken over at 21st.

what a waste
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Post by pokeyjtc » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:15 pm

Arrrrgh! I am getting so sick of this duplication. This is the fourth plane now that 21C has decided that they too need to do after Admiral annouces it first. (F-86, Zero, ME-262, and now Phantom) Is somebody from 21C spying on Admiral? I know that is a pretty bold accusation, but this is getting ridiculous. I know that these two companies are rivals, but I have to agree that the market is plenty big for both of them.

What's going to happen after Christmas next year, are there going to be stacks of Phantoms sitting in WM on clearance for $35? We all saw what happened with the Avengers this year. I can't imagine that this scenerio is going to sit well with Admiral.

This just really frustrates me because after hearing how expensive it is to tool a new plane and how long it takes, we find out that two of the same planes are being produced. This sets back the chance to see a new plane in 1:18 again. I know that we all have an arm long list of planes we have been begging for and now we have to wait again to see something new because of this duplication.

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Post by chunks » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:18 pm

There was this Jeep executive that was involved with setting up licensed production for the 2004 Cherokee in China. On one of his visits he noticed lotsa Cherokees running around with a local company name and not Jeep's on them. When He asked his Chinese contact about it, he was told he should be congratulating them on how far they've come!!! Don't ask me how this applies, it was something this latest announcement reminded me of. And I do welcome anything new that 21c, BBI, or Admiral announce. Admiral, as the new kid on the block, is now driving this hobby and as such, they have 1st take for my bucks when it comes to choosing dups from the others.
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Post by Moth » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:20 pm

MEIN GOTT!!!!
NOT AGAIN!!!!

Damn it, can you companys talk to each other?!

This is too much 21st Century and Admiral!!!

First the Sabre, then the ME-262, now the Phantom?!!!!

Now I have no way of getting the right model, at a lower pre-order price, since I dont know which one will be better. That sucks.

21st Century Toys, are you trying to kill off the competition? 3 planes is too much to be a coincidence!!!

I hope 21st Century Toys will tell us NOW if they also have a Dauntless and Skyraider in progress/planned!

Anyone know how long my monitor will work with a 4 1/2 inch crack on the screen?
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Post by chunks » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:22 pm

Not long, I'm afraid, I just installed my old spare.
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Post by Jericoeagle1 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:23 pm

I have a feeling that all three manufacturers are keeping close attention to this thread.
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Post by KAGNEW » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:25 pm

i remember Jason saying he had a good talk with Roy S.
i wonder what Roy says about that talk? :?


it don't sound like a two way street to me :evil:
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Post by tko211 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:27 pm

It actully doen't effect the ability for another NEW 1:18 scale announcement at all!

I couldn't disagree more. I know for a fact that 21st has more planes in development RIGHT NOW.

Like I said, this is NOT spur of the moment. Projects like this were planned in 2005 and 2006! So many months are already invested. And I would like to remind people of the time that The Zero was announced by all 3 companies! only one company made it though. So Its not a cut and dried case of spying or me too thinking! People like to pick the same planes because they are cool! As far as the decision to go ahead well, 21st frankly has the ability to proceed with the investment without loosing money or really feeling the pains of duplication. Joe blow in WM will see it and say wow gotta have that and may never ever know that AT made one! It's that simple.

The only thing un-planned was the need to reveal the Phantom II a WHOLE YEAR away from now. But that's the way this one had to play out. So now you know about a very new plane from 21st. Make you wonder what sits between the 262 nightfighter / day fighter and the New Phantom. 21st is just getting warmed up for 2007! :shock:
Last edited by tko211 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by USCGSARdog » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:29 pm

What a kick in the nuts for AT.

I can't help but question 21C's motives here, given the timing and all. This whole thing just seems a bit suspicious. I will just leave it at that.

I have been and always will be a fan of 21C's stuff. Unfortunately these shenanigans are growing old. 21st is REALLY going to have to out do AT on the F-4 in order to get my money this time.

My biggest gripe is this.....and I will address this to tko and 21C directly. You have a beautiful A-10 prototype. People have been begging for years now for the A-10. It is smaller and more easily boxed than an F-4. WHY ON EARTH DUPLICATE MORE AIRCRAFT WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY HALF WAY TO PRODUCING WHAT COULD BE A HUGE SELLER FOR YOUR COMPANY?

Geez........ wheres the Tylenol. :|

-Rob

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Post by FieroDude » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:29 pm

Moth wrote: 21st Century Toys, are you trying to kill off the competition? 3 planes is too much to be a coincidence!!!
I think you hit the nail on the head. There is no need to improve quality and variety when you are the only game in town. And bbi doesn't compete directly in most areas--and we saw the results where they did. 21st decided that it was finally time to fix the tooling on the Mustangs, and I am sure a Corsair overhaul is around the corner. Sorry if I am getting rather negative, but I would much rather have two different new planes than duplicate after duplicate.
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Post by aferguson » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:31 pm

with the possible exception of mentioning the price point, i don't believe that 21c is deliberately targeting AT for hostile action. Both these planes are well along in their devopment and as we should all be aware by now, these big beauties don't happen overnight.

The F-4 is such an obvious choice to be made that it is not surprising that more than once company will make it. I don't recall everyone dumping on BBI when they made a Corsair YEARS after 21c had already produced one and they also did it with the P-51 and Sherman tank as well. 21c was struggling back then but i don't remember any kind of a witch hunt directed at BBI.

The fact is there will be a huge market for this plane, just like there is for multiple mustangs and corsairs and i would bet each company sells all they can make.

There are those who will be loyal to AT, those loyal to 21c and those who will get both and those who will get neither; and i'm sure each company's offering will have things we like about it and don't like about it.

The fact is gang, this is going to keep happening over and over, so you may as well get used to it. The gene pool for 1/18 airplanes is just too small for it not to happen.

And getting back to 21c announcing the price, well, TKO brought up a very good point and i think it's a case of 21c being damned if they do and damned if they don't. Announce the price and everyone burns them for undercutting AT, don't announce it and when it comes out for less than AT's offering everyone burns them for not telling them.

I too am concerned as to what impact this may have on AT, being a new company, but they have shown they are good business people as well as good toy builders and i'm sure they can adapt, if necessary. They weren't planning on a release til year's end so i'm sure they have plenty of time to rethink things, if that's even required. They will know best.

Relax and be happy we are getting this bird at all and let's not bite the hands that are feeding us our nice toys.
i never met an airplane i didn't like...

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Post by CW4USARMY » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:33 pm

FieroDude wrote:Well, I am personally getting sick and tired of this "Me too" bulls**t. Instead of trying to undercut an honest competitor, show some balls, 21st, and do something new and different. The industry is big enough for both of you--and instead of wasting time and money creating duplicates just trying to show up your competitors, try to come up with something new that takes the whole industry farther. So when is the Hellcat or F-16 announcement coming? Where's the M1A1? Or is bbi a little better connected in China than you want deal with?
I'm with you Bro, and agree with Chunks. Black Dragon One makes an excellent point as well, and that is 21st has never announced a price before, they have always let the retailer do this, so this is obviously directed at countering Admiral production.

Market competition is a great thing, it breeds excellence, and results in better pricing (which is why I wish we could change public schools to competetive private, but thats another subject). I guess the reason I dont like this situation much is that 21st is the big guy on the block and rarely gives us any updated information, it is always at least 2 months old from what we see and hear at retailers, i.e. anyone notice the new announcement of Tuskegee Mustang on the web site last week? Hell, folks already had theirs out of the box before the announcement showed up on the web site (no attack on you TKO211, you do a great job with what little 21st tells you). Now Admiral comes along and truly cares about the collector and what we want, has outstanding customer service, develops what it is we want (262, Dauntless, SkyRaider, F-4) and 21st decides to undercut them using their Walmart profit muscle. If Admiral hadnt turned up, we'd really be screwed and wouldn't know anything. (I remember the old days before Admiral when 21st would rarely respond to any input. (hell, they still dont except when they must, anyone remember 21st's Me-262 announcment after Admiral unveiled theirs?)

Maybe I wouldnt mind so much if it was BBi, they treat us like dirt as well. I will still buy new Armor from 21st and any aircraft that Admiral doesn't make becasue I dont have another option. But, I can guarantee that I will put my money where my mouth is and purchase at a higher price for the service and respect of Admiral. You get what you pay for; Walmart prices for Walmart/21st service.

I know this turned in to a rant, but I'm going to support Admiral in this. And lets not forget Badcat, they will have a lot at stake in this venture and they deserve some consideration in all of this as well. They could stand to lose big if their venture with Admiral is undercut by 21st. Again, I'm willing to pay more for the great service and loyalty that Admiral Toys gives, and that 21st has long forgotten.

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Post by Black_Dragon_One » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:34 pm

I am really an armor guy not a plane guy... but of late that is all i have been buying.

the new ktinger is a welcome but by the description of the detail it lack the tiger one idetail ....

the pershing and the king tiger were promise to us two years a go...

the panzer came out which is good but it lack the tiger 1 and the bull dog detail..

the money 21st put in developeing a f4 could be used to make the ktiger better...

don't get me wrong.. 21st century started me on this love affair with 1:18 scale, but the waste of money to duplicate the f4....
whats up doc....

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Post by CW4USARMY » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:35 pm

USCGSARdog wrote:What a kick in the nuts for AT.

I can't help but question 21C's motives here, given the timing and all. This whole thing just seems a bit suspicious. I will just leave it at that.

I have been and always will be a fan of 21C's stuff. Unfortunately these shenanigans are growing old. 21st is REALLY going to have to out do AT on the F-4 in order to get my money this time.

My biggest gripe is this.....and I will address this to tko and 21C directly. You have a beautiful A-10 prototype. People have been begging for years now for the A-10. It is smaller and more easily boxed than an F-4. WHY ON EARTH DUPLICATE MORE AIRCRAFT WHEN YOU ARE ALREADY HALF WAY TO PRODUCING WHAT COULD BE A HUGE SELLER FOR YOUR COMPANY?

Geez........ wheres the Tylenol. :|

-Rob
I'll drink to that!!

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Post by tko211 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:36 pm

Here is the answer on the A-10 as it has been told to me.

TOO BIG, TOO COSTLY, FOR ONLY a FEW SCHEMES.

You got your camo, and you got a whole ton of boring low vis greys! Compare that to the colorful carrier markings of the phantom, show schemes, thunderbirds, blue angles, camos, other countries!!!!! Kinda starts to make sense! YOU HAVE TO MOVE LOTS OF PLANES TO MAKE ANY MONEY!

Air national guard A-10's ain't goning to cut it! NOW would I personally love to see one for my collection grey or not YES! But I would only need one GREY bird and I would be done! Maybe a camo...

The F-4 is a GREAT choice and THAT is why there is duplication!

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Post by Flak Happy » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:37 pm

aferguson wrote:with the possible exception of mentioning the price point, i don't believe that 21c is deliberately targeting AT for hostile action. Both these planes are well along in their devopment and as we should all be aware by now, these big beauties don't happen overnight.

The F-4 is such an obvious choice to be made that it is not surprising that more than once company will make it. I don't recall everyone dumping on BBI when they made a Corsair YEARS after 21c had already produced one and they also did it with the P-51 and Sherman tank as well. 21c was struggling back then but i don't remember any kind of a witch hunt directed at BBI.

The fact is there will be a huge market for this plane, just like there is for multiple mustangs and corsairs and i would bet each company sells all they can make.

There are those who will be loyal to AT, those loyal to 21c and those who will get both and those who will get neither; and i'm sure each company's offering will have things we like about it and don't like about it.

The fact is gang, this is going to keep happening over and over, so you may as well get used to it. The gene pool for 1/18 airplanes is just too small for it not to happen.

And getting back to 21c announcing the price, well, TKO brought up a very good point and i think it's a case of 21c being damned if they do and damned if they don't. Announce the price and everyone burns them for undercutting AT, don't announce it and when it comes out for less than AT's offering everyone burns them for not telling them.

I too am concerned as to what impact this may have on AT, being a new company, but they have shown they are good business people as well as good toy builders and i'm sure they can adapt, if necessary. They weren't planning on a release til year's end so i'm sure they have plenty of time to rethink things, if that's even required. They will know best.

Relax and be happy we are getting this bird at all and let's not bite the hands that are feeding us our nice toys.
Amen brother!! :wink: :wink:

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Post by Moth » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:39 pm

One more thing, someone help me with the variants...

I read the differences on them, and I am just lost... Did they add slats on one variant, then remove them on the next to add slats to the tailplane?

The one that had an internal vulcan, did it still carry gun pods?

There are just too many differences for me to decide on!

Which one is Admiral making?

Should I start a separate thread about this?
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Post by chunks » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:40 pm

Thanks aferg. I don't mind new dups so much as the pattern that has formed. You can blame this on how I think, if you wish. Most of my professional life as been based on free associative thought (one of my bosses descripted it as a permanent blonde moment, supported by the goal driven male brain stem, what can I say that was California). Jason once mentioned meeting with the others to discuss who will produce what. It didn't work, and we are seeing, repeated over and over, the result. Even if only for the attempt, Admiral gets my bucks.
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Post by CW4USARMY » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:43 pm

hworth18 wrote:
CW4USARMY wrote:Oh you've got to be kidding me! :evil: Admiral steps up to the plate and now 21st is going to undercut them! all is fair in love and war, and I guess toy manufacturing too! but it sure smells rotten. Pretty sure of which company will get it to us first though. (if past history is any indication)

I thought the $140 was too much to ask anyways, and $90.00 seems a much better price for the Phantom.. It is also an indication of Walmarts influence, 21st can make so many more selling thru mass market than Admiral can selling to individual retailers.. In the end, that has a HUGE influence on price.. :D

To be angry about two manufacturers offering the same plane is silly.. Especially when it is obvious that both manufacturers are far into the development/production process.. Both manufacturers will reap their rewards form this and move on to new and better things which in the larger picture, benefits collectors.. :wink:
Anyone who knows anything about small business knows that Admiral stands to lose big if everyone only thought about cheapest price alone. In your situation, the lowest price may be all that matters, for me it is about brand loyalty to a brand who is loyal to it's customers. If we dont support Admiral, they will go under, period, and we'll be back to waiting three years for an aircraft with minimal information that we were dealing with before Admiral came along.

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Post by grunt1 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:44 pm

Thought these might come in handy for some of you that consider this:

Good news:
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Not Good news:
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Can't we all just get along:
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Post by KAGNEW » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:46 pm

you all remember the Avenger and Bad Cat screwup?
well Deji'vu! :twisted:

21st could make it up to us with a Mig 19 & Mig 21 :P to fight all these :shock: F-4s :D :D
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Post by chunks » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:46 pm

tko211 wrote:Here is the answer on the A-10 as it has been told to me.

TOO BIG, TOO COSTLY, FOR ONLY a FEW SCHEMES.

You got your camo, and you got a whole ton of boring low vis greys! Compare that to the colorful carrier markings of the phantom, show schemes, thunderbirds, blue angles, camos, other countries!!!!! Kinda starts to make sense! YOU HAVE TO MOVE LOTS OF PLANES TO MAKE ANY MONEY!

Air national guard A-10's ain't goning to cut it! NOW would I personally love to see one for my collection grey or not YES! But I would only need one GREY bird and I would be done! Maybe a camo...

The F-4 is a GREAT choice and THAT is why there is duplication!
Not to mention the gazillions of schemes for the F-16 and F-18. I'm not ranting on you, the info you've brought us is great. But with most of the cost of the A-10 already spent, why not finish it up and present it to us at cost point to make it worth 21c's effort?
Tanks for the memories
Your breachblocks so black
And oodles of track
Here at Grafenwoehr it's so good to be back
Oh, tanks for the memories..

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