JSI F-4 Phantom II Wishlist

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:10 pm

VMF115 wrote:the point is to Growwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww the hobby and to get new people to buy it...you need something other then the Big WOW factor...once it sets in that a 1/48 scale aircraft has the same level of detail..the magic is gone. and for the money that they are going for you need more of a wow factor. you may be happy with the level of detail but there are many that toss there nose up them because of one thing lack of detail.

Adding more detail that drives the price up will not Growwwwwwwwww the hobby. It is only going to shrink it to an even smaller niche market. One that I doubt even you will be part of.

The detail level that is already there appears to be working just fine because collectors are still buying them. Look at the re-releases of the old 21st subjects that JSI has done, many of them have sold quite well and they are below the detail level we are getting with the F-14.

Do you honestly have enough information to know how many people have not bought a 1/18 aircraft because it did not have a detail feature like a removable gun to make it that big of an arguement? If you do, I'd like to see the numbers that have turned their noses up at this lack of detail versus the number that have bought them.

Seriously, people are wowed by the size of 1/18 more than they are the detail level. Are some details important, Yes. Providing a variety of subjects that fans are demanding and not re-hashing the same thing over 20 different paint schemes will keep people interested and bring more into this hobby.

Ta-152 · Post by **Ta-152** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:12 pm

From the looks of it the Tomcat is the most detail-intensive piece out there.

And stop bringing up 40 dollar WWII planes. Even 4 years ago the Tomcat wasn't ever gonna be a 100 dollar piece. The scale is a niche, and probably always will be. It's got limited growth potential.

Shin Densetsu · Post by **Shin Densetsu** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:22 pm

It's good to hear that you believe JSI knows WE want an A-10 in 1/18 scale.

Believe? They've told me numerous times before about it.

Shin, Shin, Shin you ought to know by now every time you mention something in 1/18th that is an ac that is not the A-10....it will be hijacked into an A-10 love fest...there is no way to fight it...you just have to go with the flow...LOL

We got the Tomcat so hopefully we can get the others.

It's not unreasonable to want higher levels of detail and movable parts on the A-10. I think it's unreasonable to expect anything for the price of the JSI Tomcat to have the level of detail that the Czech custom made models have.

If anything it's better to post what you want to see on future models so that JSI can gauge interest better on which details/moving parts to include. Process of elimination.

The main reason that the competition in 1/18 scale worked for the better for us was because more detail, accuracy, and moving parts were added over time. The BBI Mustang was a huge step over the 1st 21st version, and the F-86/MIG-15 were significant steps over the F-104.

I don't expect a museum piece but for any future JSI model I'd like to see moving flaps, rudders, and some internal compartments that can be exposed via movable or removable panels. Basically the level of details similar to the F-86/MIG-15 releases in 1/18 scale.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:35 pm

Shin Densetsu wrote:
I don't expect a museum piece but for any future JSI model I'd like to see moving flaps, rudders, and some internal compartments that can be exposed via movable or removable panels. Basically the level of details similar to the F-86/MIG-15 releases in 1/18 scale.

I hear you and !!!!!!!!! I agree 100 percent with that!!!!!!!!!! also add plumbing and wires to the compartments LOL maybe hydraulic lines on L/G can be done

I also think the cockpits can be brought up to a leave of realism like nothing we have seen before in 1/18th and on a budget too!

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:37 pm

Shin Densetsu wrote:
It's good to hear that you believe JSI knows WE want an A-10 in 1/18 scale.
Believe? They've told me numerous times before about it.

Don't want to be skeptical, but how many times have we heard manufacturers tell us many times that they know we really want something. Especially in the case of the A-10. The real difference comes when a manufacturer makes an official announcement that it is going to produce the subject and then at some point shows us pictures of a real 1/18 prototype they are working on. That has become the burden of proof for manufacturers in this hobby over the years. Has a manufacturer doing this even meant we got the subject, no. But it has proven positive more than not.

Shin Densetsu wrote:It's not unreasonable to want higher levels of detail and movable parts on the A-10. I think it's unreasonable to expect anything for the price of the JSI Tomcat to have the level of detail that the Czech custom made models have.

If anything it's better to post what you want to see on future models so that JSI can gauge interest better on which details/moving parts to include. Process of elimination.

Sure, as long as people aren't making statements like "I won't buy this aircraft if it doesen't have this detail". Just be reasonable with your statements. Post them as ideas, not as ultimatums.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:43 pm

VMF115 wrote: also add plumbing and wires to the compartments LOL maybe hydraulic lines on L/G can be done I also think the cockpits can be brought up to a leave of realism like nothing we have seen before in 1/18th and on a budget too!

This type of detail is approaching the Czech products quality unless it is a painted impressioned plastic piece of the model. Amazing you have all these ideas of what can be done on a budget and even the price tag they should be sold for.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:44 pm

Birddog wrote:
Sure, as long as people aren't making statements like "I won't buy this aircraft if it doesen't have this detail". Just be reasonable with your statements. Post them as ideas, not as ultimatums.

I never bought a hellcat and I was not happy with the way it turned out. And I think Bbi dropped the ball on the hellcat so...its my money after all .LOL I am not a yes man or a sheep I want what I want..if I don't get like it I don't buy it.....its simple as that..and there are more people like me. who are tight with their money.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:49 pm

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:49 pm

VMF115 wrote:
Birddog wrote:
Sure, as long as people aren't making statements like "I won't buy this aircraft if it doesen't have this detail". Just be reasonable with your statements. Post them as ideas, not as ultimatums.

I never bought a hellcat and I was not happy with the way it turned out. And I think Bbi dropped the ball on the hellcat so...its my money after all .LOL I am not a yes man or a sheep I want what I want..if I don't get like it I don't buy it.....its simple as that..and there are more people like me. who are tight with their money.

I understand that it is your money in the long run. I never said you have to spend it either did I...

No one has to be a sheep or a yes man to be positive about what the manufacturers are doing and still ask for the possiblity of improvements.

Oh, and even though it may be plastic that they do that extra detailing with, it is still another labor process that will add to the overall cost of the model.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:53 pm

Birddog wrote:
VMF115 wrote: also add plumbing and wires to the compartments LOL maybe hydraulic lines on L/G can be done I also think the cockpits can be brought up to a leave of realism like nothing we have seen before in 1/18th and on a budget too!
This type of detail is approaching the Czech products quality unless it is a painted impressioned plastic piece of the model. Amazing you have all these ideas of what can be done on a budget and even the price tag they should be sold for.

Its plastic for crying out load!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yes the molds cost a lot but they can reused where the high end one are done differently..By HAND big difference, part built by hand..not molded in plastic

This is why these models are expensive

http://www.stateofartmodels.co.uk/OurPr ... lanes.html

The production process of all our models is an extremely complicated process. It usually takes about 6 to 8 months, but we are hardly ever able to guarantee this period to a day.

What exactly happens when you order a model? We first examine your specific requests, if there are any, have a careful look at all documentation you provide us with and check if we really have all we need to commence the production. We usually require detailed photographs of all parts of your airplane. Of course, in case you decide to buy a historically accurate military aircraft or a default-coloured Cessna, all you need to do is to place the order and wait.

After this is done, we start the actual designing and modelling. We either have a form already or we create a new one, using exact drawings and projections or computer programmes. We only use top quality materials and technology.

Once we have the form filled we let the special material stiffen in it. This usually takes no longer than 2 days. At this phase we theoretically already have the airplane model. In practice however, it is just the very beginning. For what needs to be made in addition to the model body is in fact incomparably more difficult. Certain model types’ production requires the use of over a thousand different components, each of which has to be produced separately. Many of these pieces are very small and fragile; others require use of special materials - textile, rubber, glass, etc.

The further we get in the production process the more difficult it gets. The final and most demanding part also takes the longest time and, understandably requires the most skilled modellers. This indeed is where model production stops and art begins. The model body needs to be assembled, skived, and most importantly all parts need to be attached to it.
The whole cockpit, including the instrument panel, which is not larger than 2 centimetres, are modelled inside the plane - this constitutes one of the most challenging jobs to be done in the course of the whole model production.

When this is finished, the model is painted and polished and according to your request also completed with any logos or custom colour schemes.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:57 pm

Those small detials on that plastic piece are painted by hand many times though to make them stand out and add realism. The tampo process doesn't give the same effect in some cases.

This adds another line to the production process and more labor costs. This detail that seems small, could add up in the long run.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:14 pm

Birddog wrote:Those small detials on that plastic piece are painted by hand many times though to make them stand out and add realism. The tampo process doesn't give the same effect in some cases.

This adds another line to the production process and more labor costs. This detail that seems small, could add up in the long run.

but not thousands of dollars or hundred to that fact,,it would be pennies on the dollars for the labor.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:14 pm

Here's an F-4 scheme that will probably be one of the most popular for an Air Force version:

We've all seen this one proposed by 21st.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:16 pm

Birddog wrote:Here's an F-4 scheme that will probably be one of the most popular for an Air Force version:

We've all seen this one proposed by 21st.

Any AF F-4 ace would be my first choice!

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:20 pm

VMF115 wrote:
Birddog wrote:Those small detials on that plastic piece are painted by hand many times though to make them stand out and add realism. The tampo process doesn't give the same effect in some cases.

This adds another line to the production process and more labor costs. This detail that seems small, could add up in the long run.
but not thousands of dollars or hundred to that fact,,it would be pennies on the dollars for the labor.

As far as you know. Even if it is pennies on the dollar, those pennies add up for those that are concerned with the price tag.

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:37 pm

I've said it before - this model is FINALLY the first product to test that high quality, high price point top tier specialty market model that has, until now, been untested for 1:18 scale. I can assure everyone that JSI is watching the sales of this item extremely closely to gauge the feasibility of future projects. This is where the rubber hits the road, so to speak, and where the dedicated collectors are separated from the buy-if-on-clearance guys. Should be interesting! I don't know what JSI's economies of scale on this are, and how many they need to sell to call it a success, but I hope it works out so that we can see more (many more) in the future.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:38 pm

coreystinson wrote:I don't know what JSI's economies of scale on this are, and how many they need to sell to call it a success, but I hope it works out so that we can see more (many more) in the future.

I agree...

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:41 pm

Birddog wrote:
VMF115 wrote: but not thousands of dollars or hundred to that fact,,it would be pennies on the dollars for the labor.
As far as you know. Even if it is pennies on the dollar, those pennies add up for those that are concerned with the price tag.

We could go on and on and on...lets just say for the sake of the argument it will cost more then I expect and less then you expect, but will probably still be affordable........

Bird Dog I still like you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beer have a virtual beer on me!!!!!!!

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:43 pm

Here is a Navy scheme to go with the F-14:

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:47 pm

This would be the first navy F-4J to make.

Navy Lieutenant Randy "Duke" Cunningham

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:51 pm

Birddog wrote:Here is a Navy scheme to go with the F-14:

That would make a nice paint scheme along with the navy F-4B

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:26 pm

VMF115 wrote:Bird Dog I still like you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beer have a virtual beer on me!!!!!!!

I never said that I didn't like you VMF, I just don't agree with you on some things ....

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:47 pm

I am just letting you know I have no hard feelings for the lively discussion......Cheers

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:30 pm

I would like to see a Sundowner F-4. I made one in 1/48 when I was young and I have always loved this sheme.

phil

snake · Post by **snake** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:56 pm

So anyway,
My personal wish list from JSI would be for the F-15,in USAF colours,next.
After that,the Su27,in Russian markings.Really looking forward to having this one done.

Single seater,double seater,doesn't matter.
IF these two get done,I would prefer the F-4 over the A-10.A more historically significant plane,that was used by many air forces.Many choices of paint schemes,as well.
I would buy an A-10 as well,but would prefer the F-4 first.Just my opinion.

At the $200+ price tag,I think that it would be difficult to bring in many new buyers of this scale.The customer base are going to be people that already collect this scale.
And many of them are already balking at the price tag.
You need some disposable income to pay that much for a model.Certainly not going to buy one for little Johnny to play with.
That being said,I am happy with the direction JSI is taking in regards to the F-14.