Thought I had struck gold on the King Tiger!

[aferguson]

i would say this opens the door pretty wide for FOV to come in and scoop the market with greater variety and lower prices. I wonder if they will seize the opportunity and if Target is willing to expand the Bravo Team line.

[Jagdpanther]

Well I may still buy both but will see. Its still to bad that we wont see them at T R US and Walmart.

[hotrodrock]

It seems the primary reason I hear that stores won't carry these is because of the size of the box. And yet there are whole isles taken up by gigantic boxes with radio control vehicles that I have never seen anyone purchase. That reasoning just doesn't make a lot of sense. Don't know about TRU but WM is just too big to care. Their distribution process proves that. I have personally seen a stack of 15 (I counted them) 1/18 Mig planes sit for more than six months in a California WM and not one was sold. Why didn't they just get a case of 4 and send the other 3 cases to the nearby WM's that never got even one. Not 21st's fault. Sadly, they can't control the product after its delivered to WM warehouses. I don't think its the death of 1/18, but the economy is probably going to cause us to see not much in the way of new 1/18 in the next year or more.

[coreystinson]

Careful guys...this is the wave of the future unless somehow big box stores can be persuaded to sell these 1/18 pieces. If we don't buy them, they won't be built.

Now don't get me wrong, I am feeling the pinch and won't be buying multiple pieces of these either.

Well said.

Some of you guys need to stop whining for a second and deal with certain economic realities. If you can't afford to support this hobby in a specialty-market only basis, then you may have to move over to 1:32 scale or exit the hobby altogether. You can't expect manufacturers to produce product at a break-even or loss. On the other hand, if you can't afford it and it can't be targeted to mass-market appeal, then perhaps it is no longer feasible to make! Obviously, if this product weren't made in China, it would probably already be unfeasible from an economic standpoint. That's just economic reality.

Let's just skip blaming Wal-mart or the mass-market approach. My observation is that 21st Century's product placement in Wal-mart has been an iffy endeavor. In the last two years I have picked up hoards of stuff on drastic clearance around here. Simply stated, that does not bode well for the future and we are seeing the result now - no more XD on Wal-mart shelves.

[hotrodrock]

How can you not blame WM for some of the problems? My example of the Migs is a perfect example. They send a ton of an item to one store and six other stores get none, thus the buying public can't find something they are willing to purchase. Yes, you found a lot of stuff at big discounts because one store can't sell 15 Migs. Lots of members have seen 21st items go straight to the discount isle. Whos fault is this type of problem if not WM's. As I said, they don't care, but who does it hurt. 21st and we people who would buy the product if we could find it, thats who.

[olifant]

How can you not blame WM for some of the problems? My example of the Migs is a perfect example. They send a ton of an item to one store and six other stores get none, thus the buying public can't find something they are willing to purchase. Yes, you found a lot of stuff at big discounts because one store can't sell 15 Migs. Lots of members have seen 21st items go straight to the discount isle. Whos fault is this type of problem if not WM's. As I said, they don't care, but who does it hurt. 21st and we people who would buy the product if we could find it, thats who.

We CAN blame WM, but that doesn't chage the situation. I am sure 21C would be glad to continue selling to big box on these, and they too probably are upset over lousy distribution killing the deal. BUT, it is what it is and the reality is new 1/18 releases for $100 at specialty dealers. I sure miss the days of plenty, but to put it in persective look at 21C cost vs. 1/16 model kits. It is still a deal in my opinion.

I know FOV is churning out 1/18 at a great price point, but to be realistic they are much more toy like. Many members here refused to buy because the quality was subpar. I think this is the dilemma; we must pay for the quality we have demanded.

Please remember that I am no happier than anyone else with having to spend a C note to get these things.

[GooglyDoogly]

How many of us have passed up XD in WalMart in the past, thinking, "Oh, I'll just wait until they're on clearance."

Come on now...don't be shy.

It's not just Walmart's fault. It's a combination of (in no certain order):

1. 21st: We all know know how long 21st can take in releasing new stuff. Do you think Walmart like waiting for new stuff to put in their shelves? No.

2. Walmart: Iffy distribution...or maybe they just get what they can from 21st because of the problem stated above.

3. Buyers: We're such a finicky group of buyers and we shot ourself in the foot. How many of you turned your noses down on an XD product because it has a tiny smudge of paint?

Then we go whining how that XD with the smudge of paint lay sitting on the Walmart shelf for months. What do you expect Walmart to do?

And of course Walmart loved the fact the people kept returning/exchanging XD with little flaws, or if little Johnny accidentally breaks a wing tab, because Soccer Mom thought that these are "toys" and could take the rough handling of a child.

THEN like I stated above...we like to buy stuff on clearance...not just any regular clearance...but we wait for the SUPER MASSIVE BLOWOUT CLEARANCE. $9.99 for a 1/18 Avenger, hurray!

And you blame Walmart for not wanting to carry 1/18 stuff anymore?:?

Admit it. The Walmart/XD love affair didn't pan out because we, and the buying public in general DID NOT support it.

[aferguson]

Also, FOV has had great success with Bravo Team at Target. Target's distribution while not perfect appears much better than WM's. The price is about the same as XD armour was selling at WM.

This stuff can succeed at mass market retail......it just didn't happen to succeed at WM. TRU was supposed to pick up the slack and since the KT's and 88's boxes are smaller than the planes TRU is now carrying i don't see why the wouldn't carry them as well, which would allow greater production and thus lower prices and thus more sales success.

And as i said before AT is able to produce good quality aircraft at XD selling prices.....they have no mass market outlet. So why can't 21c similarily succeed, without jacking up the prices by 250%?

[GooglyDoogly]

The funny thing is, I would gladly pay $100 for the 1/18 88mm but not the King Tiger.

Why? Simple. 21st, MAKE YOUR ARMOR AT LEAST EQUAL IN DETAIL TO THE 1/18 PLANES YOU PRODUCE.

I'm horribly disappointed with this King Tiger. 21st made tremendous advance in terms of accuracy and details in their planes, but their armor is still toy-like.

And why is the King Tiger $100? Because it's bigger? It's not THAT big compared to the Tiger nor Panther.

With the 88mm, I could understand a $100 price point because of the level of detail on that thing.

[olifant]

3. Buyers: We're such a finicky group of buyers and we shot ourself in the foot. How many of you turned your noses down on an XD product because it has a tiny smudge of paint?

Then we go whining how that XD with the smudge of paint lay sitting on the Walmart shelf for months. What do you expect Walmart to do?

Well said GD. I have never been too concerned about XD quality in the past as I hang all my planes and tanks are, well, they get dirty and beat up. But for a hundred bones I think 21C must have flawless quality or even I will holler.

[VMF115]

As much fun as it is to talk about the good ole days driving (burning gas like it’s going out of style) looking for XD, buying XD at cheap prices. Those days are over.

New times have besieged us, the economy is slowing down, the dollar is at it’s lowest point in many years, fuel cost have gone up. Lets just hope wages follow…

[hotrodrock]

I swear this is the last post from me on the subject (yes, I know, thank goodness you are thinking). Lots of folks still defending WM. How come no one other than myself is mentioning those giant boxes of radio control vehicles that don't seem to sell. Much larger than 21st's, so how come 21st's is too large but those are not. If you are a member who lives in a area where all of the WM's get good supplies of 1/18, you should count your blessings because where I live they don't.

My argument with WM has nothing to do with variety. It has to do with one WM getting 4 cases when the other WM's in the area got none. What does that have to do with variety? Nothing! And its not just 1/18. Go over to the 1/32 forum and read about the WM that got 17 cases of a
ME-109 and no other WM in a 100 mile radius got any. Once again, nothing to do with variety. Just WM's distribution. Theres got to be someone on this site with a business degree in that field who can explain the business strategy of that. I don't believe there is any kind of strategy. Probably that 1/18 is just such a miniscule segment of their sales..

I do believe the KT will be able to be had for less than $100 although Historic Aviation that quoted that price ususally has reasonalble prices on their 1/18. And I realize all the bitchin' in the world is not going to change anything. Just unbelievably frustrating from a collectors standpoint.

[VMF115]

Fist off what is the whole-sale cost of a single 1/18 king tiger?

[FieroDude]

Well, according to the experts, 2009 should be a better year, with an econmic recovery and rising home values so we can again tap into our home-equity lines to afford the new 21st price structure. Or, according to the White House, these are great times, and the economy is booming (sorry GWB, but we don't all own stock in Exxon). But to get away from political issues and my feelings that it's time for a repeat of 1776 in this country.

I think 21st IS shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Do I think that $100 for the KT or 88 is unreasonable? Not necessarily. I mean, I would be ok with spending $250-300 on a well done A-10 or F4. Operative words being well done. Conisdering's 21st's amazing quality control, I really wonder how they will get the 88 to customers without a 25% reject rate. I'm not talking paint smudges, which I really don't worry about so much as long as they won't let me pull someone up in the Interpol database, but I have seen so many other quality issues (misassembled or broken parts, design flaws that essentially guarantee a part will break, etc.). And from a detail standpoint, despite it's inaccuracies, the Tiger I better warrants the $100 price tag. Keep in mind that the Panther is supposed to be hitting this price range, as well--and it left me very disappointed after the expectations I had because of my Tiger I.

I agree with Corey: this is the trend of the future, in many ways, if a manufacturer can't get support from a major retailer (although I do question whether 21st even approached TRU, or thought they would just try this approach instead? My local TRU keeps XD moving pretty well, and has shelf space to spare). But I also think 21st's inability to meet production/launch dates, provide consistent quality, and provide a logical variety/assortment didn't help their case with Walmart. WM's distribution sucked, too, without a doubt: I saw stores in my area with 30 Avengers and others that never saw one. I also think that the box size issue has less impact than we believe. WM does do better per square foot with 1/32, WWE wrestling figures, and Homeez low-riders, but that doesn't stop them from taking up large blocks of shelf space with other slow movers. I think the bigger proiblem was that that space was filled with 4 identical planes. Or with 2 or 3 variations of the exact same plane.

But the price hikes are a bit dramatic, especially all at once. Then again, it HAS been forever since 21st released anything of significance in the armor arena--maybe the going rate of inflation x the number of years since a major release DOES equal 200%.

I'm not thrilled. I probably won't buy either one, but time will tell. But I am greatly disappointed.

[aferguson]

another point......the justification for the high price of the KT and 88 is that they are being produced in fewer numbers, due to the lack of a major retailer and thus the tooling costs etc have to be amortized over a smaller number of units, thus a big price hike. But the Panther is being reissued at the same price. The panther had 3 previous releases and it's costs have long ago been covered. Why is it $100-is too?

This strikes me as a bit of 'double talk' (even though 21c hasn't actually said a word about the new pricing yet).

[ostketten]

Why is it $100-is too?

Bunker oil. These come across the ocean on a slow boat from China.

[FieroDude]

Why is it $100-is too?

Bunker oil. These come across the ocean on a slow boat from China.

And the container was the only cargo

[olifant]

Fist off what is the whole-sale cost of a single 1/18 king tiger?

Lets try to take a stab at cost. I work in the plastics industry in supply chain, so although I don't know 21C's costs I can talk about what we pay in the US.

Plastic should run between $.80-$1.20/lb. Lets call it an even dollar on what, five pounds per unit?

Paint, glue and decals, lets be generous and call it a dollar a unit.

Tool cost would be anywhere from $200-600K. Lets average this at $400K amortized over 10K units for the first run for $40 each.

I'm guessing but say packaging is $5.00 per unit.

Labor is almost nil for the injection molding, on assembly, painting and packaging say one man-hour each for maybe a dollar per unit?

Variable and fixed overhead can be high for a plastics plant, but most injection molding plants work 24/7 to eliminate downtime on expensive equipment. Lets say a dollar per unit.

Shipping is a big variable and it sounds like others here have a much better idea than I do. It can't be too high though as you are getting thousands of these things into a container with hundreds if not thousands on a ship. Say another dollar a piece?

This totals $54.00 each. Figure a ten percent profit margin and this puts wholesale at just over $60. This sounds about correct for $100 retail in my book.

[STUKA]

Problem has never been in making products - it has been putting money behind some good sales reps to get their product in the stores - 21st is a company of model makers and toy lovers - not business managers - proven time and time again.

[King O' Fools]

Well, BBI products like the Mitsubishi Zero also come on a slow boat from China, yet etailers in the US are selling this aircraft, which is more detailed than the 21st Panther, for $50.

[aferguson]

Well, i would say the following about the costs:

Plastic should run between $.80-$1.20/lb. Lets call it an even dollar on what, five pounds per unit? ......nowhere near 5 pounds, more like 2 1/2 at most.

Paint, glue and decals, lets be generous and call it a dollar a unit...fair enough

Tool cost would be anywhere from $200-600K. Lets average this at $400K amortized over 10K units for the first run for $40 each....250K is the usual number thrown around for an XD plane/tank.

I'm guessing but say packaging is $5.00 per unit...high, probably closer to $3.

Labor is almost nil for the injection molding, on assembly, painting and packaging say one man-hour each for maybe a dollar per unit?.....19 cents per hour is what the chinese labourers make.

Variable and fixed overhead can be high for a plastics plant, but most injection molding plants work 24/7 to eliminate downtime on expensive equipment. Lets say a dollar per unit...fair enough.

Shipping is a big variable and it sounds like others here have a much better idea than I do. It can't be too high though as you are getting thousands of these things into a container with hundreds if not thousands on a ship. Say another dollar a piece?..probably closer to $2.

This totals $54.00 each. Figure a ten percent profit margin and this puts wholesale at just over $60. This sounds about correct for $100 retail in my book......that's a 66% mark up, which is pretty generous. Most retailers are happy to get 30%.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem is because they don't have a major retailer the initial production run is probably not 10,000 units but maybe half of that. So the tooling costs are being amortized over half the number...this is why the cost is supposed to be so much higher....but i'm skeptical. I think the price should be lower and they should have to wait longer to recover their costs ie lower the price, sell more units now, do another run in a few months and from that run break even, then all subsequent runs are gravey....but i think they're trying to recover all their costs from the first production run which is not realistic given the lower units being produced. Both the KT and 88 will sell very well over the years ahead and they will be able to produce way over 10000 units of each eventually. But with lack of a major retailer support it will just take longer. But if they jack the price up too high and kill sales now, then they won't even sell out the fist production run, they won't bother with future production runs, they won't recover their costs and won't produce any more 1/18 armour as a result.

My point on the Panther however, was that its tooling costs were recovered years ago and what they are releasing is essentially a repaint and there is no way a price of $100 for it is justified.

The other problem is that even if a retail of $100 for the KT or 88 is justified (which i don't believe it is) that's too high and they will not move enough units. It's not just buyers being stubborn. I want 6 88's but at $100 each i simply cannot afford to pay it. So i'll probably get 2 instead, maybe a third in a year if they are still around. I am a diehard collector. What are the casual buyers that make up the bulk of the sales going to do?

[ostketten]

Obviously there are many factors that influence the end cost of an XD scale model to the consumer. But it could eventually boil down to this...

they won't bother with future production runs, they won't recover their costs and won't produce any more 1/18 armour as a result.

and I don't think this will apply only to armor either, it will affect everything in 1:18th, it could very well prove to be the case that in the future we will see the variety, quantity, and types of products in this scale wane in favor of the smaller scales (ie.1:32 and 1:72 etc.) which apparently offer certain advantages in terms of production, shipping, marketing, and not least of all, profit margin. A sad reality to ponder, but it could be what's in store in the future, still, I don't think it will turn 180 degrees overnight, but if you are an avid 1:18 collector I wouldn't wait too long to get the stuff you really want.

[KWR190]

My point on the Panther however, was that its tooling costs were recovered years ago and what they are releasing is essentially a repaint and there is no way a price of $100 for it is justified.

Im with Aferguson on the panther look how cheap the BBI stuff was at Target

[normandy]

Could the reason the King Tiger has such a high price tag be that its Die Cast? Well part of it anyway.
I'm looking at this Historic Aviation catalog and see a 1:72 die cast Halifax for $119.00, a 1:48 Mosquito for $89.95, an RAF Stirling in 1:144 scale for $29.95 and so on......
I don't collect Die Cast so I'm not all to familiar with pricing.