Phantom II for 89.99?

[blurx7]

My god! I miss a day and suddenly there's a twelve page extravaganza of bloodletting!
We all seem to have way too much time on our hands.
We should all get a hobby or something!

[tmanthegreat]

My god! I miss a day and suddenly there's a twelve page extravaganza of bloodletting!
We all seem to have way too much time on our hands.
We should all get a hobby or something!

We do have a hobby - just that it has too many companies making too many of the same planes

[VMF115]

Dear Fellow Members,

This is truly a sad day in the minds of Admiral Toys. We are sad for our attempt to offer a unique and highly requested model, and we are equally sad for you the enthusiast. Duplication of models on a consistent basis is not fair to the enthusiasts and not good business practices for the manufacturers. Mr. TKO there is something to gain from open lines of communication between the manufacturers. 21st can gain the respect of 21st Century’s fans that they are doing what they can to make this industry thrive. A closed line of communication is an effort by 21st Century to protect their interest in the scale they pioneered. Unfortunately they are willing to kill the scale before giving away any cooperative effort. Admiral Toys would have focused our efforts on other projects had we known 21st was producing an F-4. Not because we cannot compete with 21st in production of a model, but, because it is not beneficial for either company to produce the same aircraft. Not beneficial financially, and not beneficial to the enthusiasts that deserve variety. We would have been more then happy to tackle other projects and give 21st the full range of F-4 sales.

As for the future of Admiral Toys’ F-4: we have every intention to produce this model. As you have seen through photos, we are too far along in the production process to stop production at this time. However, we would like to offer you the enthusiasts more then a choice between two manufactures of the same aircraft. Therefore, I would like to see the “1:18” prototype of 21st Century’s F-4. If you are as far along as you claim in production on the F-4 in 1:18 you must have at least a prototype completed. I would ask that you post photos of the 1:18 prototype in this forum so that I can see what differences we can make of our model to give the enthusiasts some variety. We have shown the world our model, why not show us yours. So if Mr. Sutherland could furnish TKO with some photos, at your earliest convenience, it is not too late for Admiral to make some changes and offer the enthusiasts some variety. I think the fans of 21st deserve to see a prototype now so they can make an educated decision on whether to start saving more then $89 for the F-4. I am sorry to discus on a public forum what I feel should be discussed behind closed doors. But this forum appears to be the only venue for discussion with candor between our companies. Furthermore, Mr. Sutherland, do not worry. BBI does not have an F-4 in production. We actually talk. I had a four hour meeting with BBI in Kowloon just two weeks ago.

I am happy to hear that we are not in competition with the SBD and Skyraider. I am sure whatever 21st Century has planed for this year will be incredible. You make beautiful models that keep everyone on the edge of their seats with anticipation.

Regards,
Jason

Ok I am sorry I did not seen this .....

And I agree with Jason

To Mr. Sutherland I hope you and Jason from Admiral Toys can sit down behind closed doors and hammer out some type of legal agreement. I do like the beautiful models you make and have many of them on display, I am just tired of duplication and so are many on this forum.

[Quixote511]

I feel for the AT people and they have my support. Also, I plan on getting one from 21st as well. I want both of these companies producing big wonderful planes. However, I can feel for TKO. His job is to report for 21st. It was not his decision to make the F4 or to roll with its intro right away. Don't shoot the messenger.

[VMF115]

I feel for the AT people and they have my support. Also, I plan on getting one from 21st as well. I want both of these companies producing big wonderful planes. However, I can feel for TKO. His job is to report for 21st. It was not his decision to make the F4 or to roll with its intro right away. Don't shoot the messenger.

I have no problem with TKO, he is just the messenger and I bet he is a stand up guy.


Here is a scenario

21st corporate headquarters;: TKO we want you to announce to the SMHQ the creation of a 1:18 SBD and A-1

TKO: What!!!!!!! If I announce that the folks over there will have my head……no… I will not announce that,,,, heck you don’t even pay me for this……

21st corporate headquarters: SO how much do you want to be paid?

TKO: How about something in the six figures.

21st corporate headquarters: So how many 1:18 figures do you want?

[MK]

I don't see any of this as bashing. If it were bashing, Aferg would have stopped it by now. Everyone knows TKO is only the messenger, but he is the easiest avenue to voice our opinions to 21st. He is doing a great job and it sucks being stuck in the middle. It will blow over, but I don't think its going to happen today.

MK

[tko211]

Thanks fellas for the breath of fresh air! On the note of being a messenger I was asked to pass this message along. It comes from Roy Sutherland at 21st Century Toys. The discussions here have inspired him to sum up the position and view points of 21st Century Toys.

Hi Guys,

We have been accused by some of simply reacting to the market and not innovating. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

21st Century Toys has been around for 10 years now, give or take a little. When we started, there was only 1/6th GI Joe, and he had become a spy/action hero. No real military uniforms or equipment. Just quasi para-military stuff. The Ultimate Soldier was something completely new. Look at what 21st Century Toys has brought to the high quality reality-based military toy collectors over the last 10 years:

First 1/6 action figures
First 1/6 weapon sets
First 1/6 military trucks
First 1/6 tanks
First 1/6 RC Military tanks
First 1/18 airplanes
First 1/18 military vehicles
First 1/18 RC military vehicles
First 1/18 posable figures
First 1/32 military vehicles
First 1/32 figures
First 1/32 airplanes
First 1/32 playsets
First airplanes (all scales) with multi-variant capabilities
First military vehicles (all scales) with multi-variant capabilities

We have also had the:

First 1/18 Mustang
First 1/18 F4U-1 Corsair
First 1/18 Me-262A (announced but not first into production due to production delays)
First 1/18 F-86 Sabre (announced but not first into production due to production delays)
First 1/32 F4U-1 Corsair
First 1/18TBF-1 Avenger
and a host of many other products too numerious to recall or point out.

We have innovated many special features now standard on military toys, and the innovations will continue to surprise and fire the imagination of collectors. We have a new innovation coming in 1/18th figures that will generate some real excitement (and will certainly show up in competitors products before long, I imagine). We have never bothered to copyright these innovations, so the fans benefit in the long run. We are simply too busy working on new products.

It has been my pleasure to have been with 21C for the last 4 years, and I have worked hard to live up to the amazing standards set by the original creative team here at 21C. While a few products may seem dated by today’s standards, they blew everyone out of the water with the level of accuracy and detail back in the day. Big props to Scott, Marcello, and the guys from the early days in the Burbank model shop. They changed the toy world.

For those of you new to this community, please understand that all the other companies out there making products in the same genre have come after us. Also, please understand that while we are enthusiasts as you are, this is business, and discussion between companies to agree on products is strictly against the law. We cannot and will not do this. Duplication of effort is unfortunate, but in the end, competition benefits the consumer. We are sure you will be excited to hear the many announcements of new products that we will be rolling out on the website over the next few months. There are some real bombshells in there (open to interpretation? Hmmm…) and the NY Toyfair announcements are just a taste of what’s to come. Now, I have to get back to the trenches. I have a ton of product reviews to write!

Thanks for your time, and happy collecting.

Roy Sutherland
Designer/Production manager
21st Century Toys

[toyktdlgh]

Roy, thanks so much for coming on here and expressing your views. I’m excited that both companies are making such a big leap with these aircraft. I intend to buy one of each in the hopes that you will continue to break the size barrier and keep bringing us even better, larger aircraft in the future. (Hint, B-25)

[Timbo]

First 1/6 action figures
First 1/6 weapon sets
First 1/6 military trucks
First 1/6 tanks
First 1/6 RC Military tanks

Dead: Forced out of the market by Dragon and BBI and a few soccer moms.
Might as well be dead
Dead: While still sought after since they are the only game in town. Scale they are not.
Dead: Out of production due to an over saturated market? Sure.......
Dead: Likely same as above.

21st doesn't exactly have a history of dealing well with direct competition.

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

I wanted to give you a recap of the events that have occured this week. I will leave it up to you to come to your own conclusions.

Today was the last day of Toy Fair, and needless to say it was a very interesting day. 21st and Admiral shared an isle at the fair. We were very close to one another and spoke on several occasions.

The first day was cordial. We invited the team at 21st to come over to our booth and preview the F-4. Ironically, 21st was the first to publicly view the F-4 in the world. They gave us no indication that they had an F-4 in the works. We had absolutely no indication or advanced knowledge of 21st’s release. If we did, we would have never released this model so far from production. We thought an aircraft this large would never be received well by Wal-Mart and therefore never produced by 21st.

On Tuesday night we received several phone calls about the 21st news and release of their F-4. It is interesting that the flier for their release states the 21st’s F-4 is the most affordable F-4 in 1:18 on the market. Apparently they produced their release sometime between Saturday and Tuesday.

Today when we arrived I had a conversation with Michael Cordero of 21st Century. I told them that this would be an interesting Christmas, and that I was looking forward to seeing what the competition had to offer. We discussed how the photos on their release pamphlet is of their 1:32 scale F-4 and I asked when I was going to see their 1:18 version. I was told that I was not allowed to see their prototype. When put to the question on whether their prototype was even started they could neither admitted nor deny. However, it was ironic that several of the 21st crew had no idea that 21st was even working on a 1:18 version of the F-4. It is pretty hard to hide a 42’ long prototype.

Our conversation shifted to duplicates. I asked if this is what we could expect from 21st in the future. I mentioned their timing on the Sabre and ME 262 and now the F-4. I was told (paraphrasing) “Get used to it. This is the business practice of 21st Century. Each time you try and produce an “A” list aircraft we will produce it at the same time. We will not let you produce a model that we want to produce without producing it ourselves.”

I was not even shocked. The past had already reflected these business practices.

I asked if the F-4 was going to Wal-Mart because of their $90 price point. I was told their F-4 fits in the Avenger box. This is where my skepticism stepped in. How does a 42’ model fit in a 28ish’ box?

I was informed that 21st anticipates an early fall release, not Christmas. Therefore I am afraid that they will beat us to market on this one. Because of their announcement we have decided to go back and “tweak” the F-4. This will put us behind a couple of weeks. I wished them luck with their F-4 and wished both of our companies great success with this release in the future.

So, unfortunately, I guess duplications are not going to stop anytime soon.

Mr. Sutherland, forbearance agreements for valuable consideration are not illegal. How 21st runs their company is their perogative. We will adjust.

Regards,
Jason

[chunks]

I'm no lawyer, nor do I wish to be one, But I've attended many conventions, meetings, phone calls, lunches, etc that I'm reasonable curtain that talk between competitors is not illegal. Price fixing and market manipulation, if behind closed doors or in the light of day, however is. I am not accusing anyone of trying to do that. My point is only that talking is not illegal.

[chunks]

Sorry, Jason, you'd posted while I was working on my little bit.

[ostketten]

21C is doing fine and will continue to do so. Just because a few of their product lines didn't make the cut is no big deal, happens all the time to companies all over the world, they evolve, they grow, they bring new products to market and eliminate others, it's the natural order of things. Trust me, 21C is not concerned with what AT or BBI or anyone else is or is not doing, they have their own game plan and they are sticking to it regardless of what the "other guys" are doing. They will continue to get my support as well, that's for sure.

[Moth]

“Get used to it. This is the business practice of 21st Century. Each time you try and produce an “A” list aircraft we will produce it at the same time. We will not let you produce a model that we want to produce without producing it ourselves.”

*You said that Admiral does not interfere with your sales, so why kill them?*

There goes my slim chance of getting a Do-335.

Well, as it goes, the bigger the company, the worse the people.

Please say the truth, will you make a Dauntless and Skyraider too?

[STUKA]

Grognard
Could not have said it better - well maybe -
but I agree - this is going to make our hobby better.
The F4 II will be a big seller for both companies -

The best part of this back and fourth is the little hints we keep getting about future offerings in 1:18...





sigh.....


sips coffee

[p51]

It sounds like a very heated issue might be on the horizon with the release of the Phantom by both companies. I wish both companies the best of luck and know I'll be getting one from each company (especially if one of them makes a Blue Angel version).

However, since this issue could heat up a lot of discussion on business practices and such, I have to ask that we leave that outside this public forum. Let's keep the topic on topic about how awesome it is that we have two companies working on two different F-4 Phantoms which will be probably one of the most impressive 1:18 aircraft we have seen to date!!

[Birddog]

Well, I think the safe thing for AT to do now knowing 21st plan is to follow bbi's policy. Not say a word until it is on the boat.

What a sad day this is for our hobby, thanks 21st.....

[Moth]

Well, I think the safe thing for AT to do now knowing 21st slimy plan is to follow bbi's policy. Not say a word until it is on the boat.

What a sad day this is for our hobby, thanks 21st.....

That makes it worse, once all of us has Admiral's version, 21stCT might make a better one, forcing us to get theirs too, I dont need 2 of each model!

[VMF115]

woops

[p51]

Again guys, let's keep who is best out of this until we see both finished F-4 Phantoms.

[ostketten]

However, since this issue could heat up a lot of discussion on business practices and such, I have to ask that we leave that outside this public forum. Let's keep the topic on topic about how awesome it is that we have two companies working on two different F-4 Phantoms which will be probably one of the most impressive 1:18 aircraft we have seen to date!!

Wise decision

[Warthog75]

...when did our free enterprise, capitalist economy become a kumbayah sing-along. I don't understand why some people are angry. Perhaps 21st century is just as far along with their 1:18 F4 as AT is...perhaps they're not. But I am quite sure that 21st did not decide, on simple whim, to greenlight development and production on a brand new 1:18 model the very instant that AT announced their F4. As others have pointed out, these models/toys take months of R&D and all we see are mere glimpses of the process.

And you know what, none of that matters anyway. Both 21st and AT are companies engaged in BUSINESS. They're not charity organizations. Do you think Coke and Pepsi sit down and have annual pow-wows to discuss what their upcoming products are? No! They are always trying to one-up each other, in order to win as many customers as possible and increase their market share. The name of the game is profit, people. That's what it comes down to, plain and simple. Both companies are trying to make money. Sure, there are people at both companies that are fanboys just like us, but I can guarantee that if these toy ventures were not profitable (at least in the long run), neither of these 2 companies would exist. Competition is good, especially for the consumer.

And don't forget that the 1:18 military market would not be what it is today without 21st. They truly were the FIRST. They've had their problems but this fanboy is truly thankful for all the freaking cool stuff that 21st has released in the last decade, much of which I could only dream about when I was a child. I still remember the first time I was in a Toys R Us picking up that Panther tank and just being in awe. 21st will always have my business. (Not to say, however, that I won't be all over that Skyraider and Dauntless!)

Warthog75

P.S. Were we all this angry when BBI decided to release the p51 and Corsair, both of which had been released by 21st long, long before?