Phantom II for 89.99?

[aferguson]

anyone who has been a long term member of this board is well aware (or should be) that 21c announced both their Sabre and Me-262 long before we'd ever heard of Admiral Toys. So much for the conspiracy theories..

Whether or not 21c intended to announce their Phantom at this Toy Fair, we will never know and it really doesn't matter. They clearly, clearly intended to release it this year. So it's a simple case of two different companies recognizing a good potential seller and making it at the same time. And this probably wont' be the last time it happens......like i said before, so get used to it.

For those who think 21c is the big bad wolf, then don't buy their products. Simple. Admiral will get lots of support from members of this board and non-board members who buy AT's product regularily may be totally unaware that 21c is even making a Phantom (and vice versa).

There is a HUGE market for this plane...plenty of buyers to go around. And even if 21c is trying to stick it to AT a bit, so what? If it were your company you'd probably do the same. Admiral had to know they were coming into a competative industry when they started in business and i'm sure they know what they are doing. So, the best thing to do is relax, sit back and reap the benefits of increased competition in our hobby.

My but we're a passionate group though, eh?

[Plane Nuts]

where did you find out about the platoon figures???????

21st started talking about Platoon almost two years ago when they first tied in with Sahara. I honestly thought they had already been on the market!!

But I'm not a figure guy, 'cuz I am only really interested in pilots for my planes!!

[chunks]

anyone who has been a long term member of this board is well aware (or should be) that 21c announced both their Sabre and Me-262 long before we'd ever heard of Admiral Toys. So much for the conspiracy theories.. From Aferg

No conspiracy theory. Like everyone else in the world we can only judge based on our experience and education. 'nough said.

[Jericoeagle1]

Here is the answer on the A-10 as it has been told to me.

TOO BIG, TOO COSTLY, FOR ONLY a FEW SCHEMES.

You got your camo, and you got a whole ton of boring low vis greys! Compare that to the colorful carrier markings of the phantom, show schemes, thunderbirds, blue angles, camos, other countries!!!!! Kinda starts to make sense! YOU HAVE TO MOVE LOTS OF PLANES TO MAKE ANY MONEY!

Air national guard A-10's ain't goning to cut it! NOW would I personally love to see one for my collection grey or not YES! But I would only need one GREY bird and I would be done! Maybe a camo...

The F-4 is a GREAT choice and THAT is why there is duplication!

This argument doesn't hold much water with me since the F-4 is a larger and more complex aircraft to make then an A-10 (no folding wing tips etc, Dual Cockpits, Complex wing and tail surfaces). The F-4 I agree is a great choice for variety but the variety comes mainly from its role in the Navy. Does this also rule out the F-15, F-105, F-16 because lets face it they don't come in many choices either.

This also holds true for most US Navy WWII aircraft your choices Overall Blue, Atlantic Grey or Pacific Tricolor
not alot of variety there either.

And yes the Choices for an A-10 are limited with Lt Sky Grey and Euro Camo 1 being the most recognizable but there are also these tested schemes but very cool looking for an average buyer yet still authentic.


Dessert Camo


Winter Scheme


Jaws II Camo


Just a personal pic
This Foam A-10 is holding the place for the first 1/18 that someone eventually produces


Like what has been said you can create fictional schemes for non-collectors I met a guy who made an A-10 model into an Air Racer with Budwieser decals for the engines to make them look like beer cans. I'd buy that one in a minute if I could find it. In my mind its not finding a market to sell to but making one.

[Spudkopf]

Paint schemes.... ....weren't many paint schemes with the F-16 or F-18 and they seem to have sold very well.

Wish I'd said something like that

[Birddog]

Here is the answer on the A-10 as it has been told to me.

TOO BIG, TOO COSTLY, FOR ONLY a FEW SCHEMES.

You got your camo, and you got a whole ton of boring low vis greys! Compare that to the colorful carrier markings of the phantom, show schemes, thunderbirds, blue angles, camos, other countries!!!!! Kinda starts to make sense! YOU HAVE TO MOVE LOTS OF PLANES TO MAKE ANY MONEY!

Air national guard A-10's ain't goning to cut it! NOW would I personally love to see one for my collection grey or not YES! But I would only need one GREY bird and I would be done! Maybe a camo...

The F-4 is a GREAT choice and THAT is why there is duplication!

One more thing about the paint schemes/liveries, there can be six for the A-10......Lizard Camo w/Shark Mouth, Low Vis Grey w/ Shark Mouth, Lizard Camo w/out Shark Mouth, Low Vis Grey w/out Shark Mouth, the D-Day commerative scheme that the Franklin Mint has done and number five...the killer nose art of the 47th FS at Barksdale AFB....http://www.pbase.com/image/35946495.


Then like Spud stated earlier, paint it in the trial schemes, it will sell to the average Wally World Wonderer who knows nothing about the aircraft and just looks at the coolness. Other than die hard collectors, how many average Wally World Wonderers do you think buy every scheme that comes out anyway.

[aferguson]

Chunks wrote:

"No conspiracy theory. Like everyone else in the world we can only judge based on our experience and education. 'nough said."

Fair enough. But perhaps those that haven't been involved in this hobby for very long or members on this board for a long time, shouldn't make blanket statements/accusations or overly criticize, until they know all the facts...

It's kinda like arguing who the best hockey player of all time is when you just started following the game last season.....you don't have a great deal of knowledge to base your statements on.

[Jason of Admiral Toys]

Dear Fellow Members,

This is truly a sad day in the minds of Admiral Toys. We are sad for our attempt to offer a unique and highly requested model, and we are equally sad for you the enthusiast. Duplication of models on a consistent basis is not fair to the enthusiasts and not good business practices for the manufacturers. Mr. TKO there is something to gain from open lines of communication between the manufacturers. 21st can gain the respect of 21st Century’s fans that they are doing what they can to make this industry thrive. A closed line of communication is an effort by 21st Century to protect their interest in the scale they pioneered. Unfortunately they are willing to kill the scale before giving away any cooperative effort. Admiral Toys would have focused our efforts on other projects had we known 21st was producing an F-4. Not because we cannot compete with 21st in production of a model, but, because it is not beneficial for either company to produce the same aircraft. Not beneficial financially, and not beneficial to the enthusiasts that deserve variety. We would have been more then happy to tackle other projects and give 21st the full range of F-4 sales.

As for the future of Admiral Toys’ F-4: we have every intention to produce this model. As you have seen through photos, we are too far along in the production process to stop production at this time. However, we would like to offer you the enthusiasts more then a choice between two manufactures of the same aircraft. Therefore, I would like to see the “1:18” prototype of 21st Century’s F-4. If you are as far along as you claim in production on the F-4 in 1:18 you must have at least a prototype completed. I would ask that you post photos of the 1:18 prototype in this forum so that I can see what differences we can make of our model to give the enthusiasts some variety. We have shown the world our model, why not show us yours. So if Mr. Sutherland could furnish TKO with some photos, at your earliest convenience, it is not too late for Admiral to make some changes and offer the enthusiasts some variety. I think the fans of 21st deserve to see a prototype now so they can make an educated decision on whether to start saving more then $89 for the F-4. I am sorry to discus on a public forum what I feel should be discussed behind closed doors. But this forum appears to be the only venue for discussion with candor between our companies. Furthermore, Mr. Sutherland, do not worry. BBI does not have an F-4 in production. We actually talk. I had a four hour meeting with BBI in Kowloon just two weeks ago.

I am happy to hear that we are not in competition with the SBD and Skyraider. I am sure whatever 21st Century has planed for this year will be incredible. You make beautiful models that keep everyone on the edge of their seats with anticipation.

Regards,
Jason

[Sabrefan]

Thanks for your comments Jason. I was wondering what your thoughts were on this subject.

[chunks]

Chunks wrote:

"No conspiracy theory. Like everyone else in the world we can only judge based on our experience and education. 'nough said."

Fair enough. But perhaps those that haven't been involved in this hobby for very long or members on this board for a long time, shouldn't make blanket statements/accusations or overly criticize, until they know all the facts...

It's kinda like arguing who the best hockey player of all time is when you just started following the game last season.....you don't have a great deal of knowledge to base your statements on.

This is very much how one finds the facts, and I thank you for't. Very much

[Shin Densetsu]

Dear Fellow Members,

This is truly a sad day in the minds of Admiral Toys. We are sad for our attempt to offer a unique and highly requested model, and we are equally sad for you the enthusiast. Duplication of models on a consistent basis is not fair to the enthusiasts and not good business practices for the manufacturers. Mr. TKO there is something to gain from open lines of communication between the manufacturers. 21st can gain the respect of 21st Century’s fans that they are doing what they can to make this industry thrive. A closed line of communication is an effort by 21st Century to protect their interest in the scale they pioneered. Unfortunately they are willing to kill the scale before giving away any cooperative effort. Admiral Toys would have focused our efforts on other projects had we known 21st was producing an F-4. Not because we cannot compete with 21st in production of a model, but, because it is not beneficial for either company to produce the same aircraft. Not beneficial financially, and not beneficial to the enthusiasts that deserve variety. We would have been more then happy to tackle other projects and give 21st the full range of F-4 sales.

As for the future of Admiral Toys’ F-4: we have every intention to produce this model. As you have seen through photos, we are too far along in the production process to stop production at this time. However, we would like to offer you the enthusiasts more then a choice between two manufactures of the same aircraft. Therefore, I would like to see the “1:18” prototype of 21st Century’s F-4. If you are as far along as you claim in production on the F-4 in 1:18 you must have at least a prototype completed. I would ask that you post photos of the 1:18 prototype in this forum so that I can see what differences we can make of our model to give the enthusiasts some variety. We have shown the world our model, why not show us yours. So if Mr. Sutherland could furnish TKO with some photos, at your earliest convenience, it is not too late for Admiral to make some changes and offer the enthusiasts some variety. I think the fans of 21st deserve to see a prototype now so they can make an educated decision on whether to start saving more then $89 for the F-4. I am sorry to discus on a public forum what I feel should be discussed behind closed doors. But this forum appears to be the only venue for discussion with candor between our companies. Furthermore, Mr. Sutherland, do not worry. BBI does not have an F-4 in production. We actually talk. I had a four hour meeting with BBI in Kowloon just two weeks ago.

I am happy to hear that we are not in competition with the SBD and Skyraider. I am sure whatever 21st Century has planed for this year will be incredible. You make beautiful models that keep everyone on the edge of their seats with anticipation.

Regards,
Jason

Jason if you guys pull of an F-14A from VF-1 wolfpack circa 1975, you guys will not only shock everyone, but give us what we have been begging for for a long time(I know a few members on macrossworld who have begged for a tomcat and A-10 since the BBI F/A-18 came out, me being one of them).

[chunks]

And, other then marketing, please don't underestimate what my experience/education can bring. I very much look forward to what the forum can bring to me!! Which is the important thing. the biggie is testing my own memories and such. At least to me. And I thank everyone here for it

[FieroDude]

That we are, Andrew. That we are. I think the frustrating thing for me is knowing that for what we see on the market, there are 19 more "maybes" that were researched, mocked up, and maybe even tooled, but never see the light of day. For the sake of variety, I would like to see some effort put into realizing these maybes, instead of duplication. So Admiral announces the F-4. Offer up the A-6. Or a Mig-21. I still have a whole pantheon of modern aircraft and armor with nothing to shoot at. Where are my modern Migs, Sukhois, or Hinds? Or a T-72? Hell, give me a Toyota pick-up with a machine gun! There is enough to go around, and no one can say that they haven't considered it. I spoke with someone from FOV in October who said they were debating 1:18 armor since there was so much potential material. So why the same planes, time after time? 21st announced the A-10 some time ago as a concept, but now we hear that there is not enough variety to justify it.

So what is the acceptable delay between announcing something as an idea and actually launching it? look at the delay in the Avenger. When I got into this hobby, it was coming soon. After I had forgotten it and written it off like the Pontiac Banshee, I found one in Walmart. More than 2 years had passed. What is the statute if limitations for XD? Worst caee, get a patent or a license arrangement.

But this one-upmanship is really turning me off to this hobby. It seems like there are two options for the planes I want: no one makes them, or two companies make them. Like Roy pointed out: there is the A-list. But there is quite a bit on that list. Let's finish off the list before the pissing matcbes start, please?

[Spudkopf]

G'day Jason

I am very glad you are making the choice to continue with your F-4 despite the competition, the pictures of your 1/18th (like you, I suspect that the 21stCT image may be of the 1/32 prototype) look very nice and you would appeared to have as promised made great advances over your earlier offerings with all three new products.

I am most looking forward to the Skyraider (can't beet a big fat fan out in front) but the F-4 has a lot of wow factor also.

To paraphrase you "In an effort to offer you the enthusiasts more" may I again suggest again that some flexibility be offered in respect to the aircraft markings (much like the Hakenkreuz on the Me 262) so the customer can have more input, but more importantly you may have to pull out all the stops on the pilots this time round.

Thank you for keeping us all in the loop and sorry that you have had to go public here with your concerns, best of luck.

David

[aferguson]

FieroDude: again, having been around these boards from the beginning i know for a fact that 21c lost interest in producing the A-10 years ago. That it was confirmed today came as no surprise at all to me. Had you been around this hobby for years you'd probably known the same. It was always known the Avenger was a comin', it just ran into delay after delay and it was during a time when 21c was struggling far more than they are now (again you'd know this if you'd been here for the past six years).

What is A list to us and A list to a manufacturer is two different things. I could put easily 100 planes on my A list...but the A list that really counts is what average joe, who has limited knowledge of the history and the different planes, will buy. A Mig 21 may be A list to you or me but not to Joe.

If you were running a company making these things i'm sure your viewpoint would be different as to what should be produced. Hopefully in time, as this hobby flourishes, we will see some of the non A list types produced. I think the chances are decent we will. But for now it will be Phantoms and Corsairs long before we see Migs and Intruders.

Very interesting news about FOV considering 1/18 armour. I've been hoping for that since they came into being. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that one..

[flayrah]

Despite my current situation with the 21st Tender Terror Victory prize I've been waiting for, and that I've been advised to lay low until after Toy Fair so I can play nice with 21st and hopefully get my prize, I have to say I don't like the sound of 21st announcing the F-4 at all. Not at all. For years I've been saying 21st is an opportunistic, questionably operated company and now, maybe, more of you will understand what I have been trying to point out. It was stated that 21st is not in the business of helping other companies run their businesses - but what about the industry as a whole? If 21st wants to play hurry-up-and-copy with the other manufacturers, that's fine but it will result in another nail in the 1:18 coffin when too much similar product is on the market. Oh, that's right, 21st has 1:32, and 1:48, and 1:144 to fall back on so it won't matter to them if 1:18 dies. They can abandon it just as they have announced they are leaving the 1:6 market, which, by the way, they proclaimed they were "dedicated" to a few years ago. For me, more of my money will just go to companies whom I believe have the customer more in mind. If I really want the 21st F-4, I will just wait until they go on $45 or $35 or less clearance at Wally. Just as Wally has been accused of screwing with other retailers through price manipulation and pressuring the market, it appears 21st is attempting in their 'partnership' with Wally. As my mother always said, water finds its own level. And if this post means I won't be receiving my Victory prize, so be it. It will just be another example of 21st not following through on their word.

[tko211]

I wish I were an acutual employee or perhaps a member of management, but I am not. The efforts that I put fourth to help bring photos on AREA-21, report news, and create an open line of communication is more or less done as a fan for the fan! I am only told what I am told and I am only allowed to disclose what I can when I am told that I can.

I would like to think that my friendships with 21st and loyalty has earned me some respect and above all a trusting relationship, but unfortunately I am not in a position to make any changes in company policy. For these reasons I am only informed of decisions at most 2 months in advance. In this role I really am only a plane nut just like everone else on the boards.

As a fan I really felt bad to learn that AT had produced a Phantom as well. I am too aware of the costs and efforts involved to bring a massive plane like that into the market. (Boy does it cost some big bucks) I suspect that this is one reason why AT is not backing out of the position to build one? This move on AT part also says alot about the nature of business though does it not? If this was all just about the fans and not business would'nt it make good sense to pull out in the name of the fans and build them that A-10 they have been asking for? Of course not! Too much time and effort has gone into producing the product to this point. To be 100% honest and this is just my opinion... 21st Century Toys has a little different foucs than say a company like AT? The objectives, opportunity, and road blocks I would say are in fact different in many ways when you compare one company to the other. 21st (from a business perspective) has little to gain from going the full disclosure route?

Take the Sabre for example! 21st wanted to build one because they thought it would do very well at Wal Mart! So they build it! It had almost ZERO bearing on on what AT did or does! And from what I have been told the Sabre does very well! EVEN though us fans have 2 to pick from and there is (duplication) has ZERO effect from the persoective of 21st management and the numbers never lie! So that said I have established why 21st makes the things that they make and why they do it.

Now lets just say that AT and 21st did have a pow wow and discuss the building of a phantom. By your own admission Jason, you would have backed down. That woudl be good for the fans and GREAT for you! Why because you would go on to make something else for you and the fans. Again I don't dispute the VALUE that this would serve to AT and perhaps even the fans. BUT 21st is not in business to help AT a successful business! That is just a crazy notion! And on the topic of business I am full
qualified to speak as I am CEO of my own company and I know what it takes to run profitable business and in truth... helping competitors is not on my list of ways to win!

As a business owner I can respect what AT has done! As a fan I am glad that the hobby has grown to introduce new blood but there are some very basic rules to running a business and have a hard time seeing the mutual bebefit for both parties. I do see what AT could gain. It's not personal, Jason knows this as he and I have exchanged friendly communication in the past. This is just a business and the fact is simply this! 21st Century Toys wanted to make this Phantom and they see a need for it with the customer relationships that they have in place. They intend to do this at a 89.99 price point regardless of features / differences. This was a decision that was made about 11 months ago. The plane is in construction as we speak. The pictures that have been requested cand be viewed at AREA-21 or a flyer / hard copy can be attained at the 21st booth in NY.

As a fan I am just darn glad that the Phantom is being made in 1:18 scale! with the 50 buck I will save I might even get me a Dauntless! or Perhaps I will buy a second 21st Phantom save another 50 bucks and buy the Skyraider too! That is my plan. But you guys do what you want to do.

[Sabrefan]

Or a Badcat and a mouse game.

[chunks]

If this was all just about the fans and not business would'nt it make good sense to pull out in the name of the fans and build them that A-10 they have been asking for? Of course not!



So no A-10, then?

[Moth]

No, no A-10, stop asking everyone.

[Plane Nuts]

I would like to think that my friendships with 21st and loyalty has earned me some respect and above all a trusting relationship, but unfortunately I am not in a position to make any changes in company policy. For these reasons I am only informed of decisions at most 2 months in advance. In this role I really am only a plane nut just like everone else on the boards.

Ummmmmm....Trademark Infringement!!! There is only one Plane Nut here!!

Zach, I appreciate who you are and what you do! We all know that this wasn't your decision to make, and it's not too fair to dump it all on you.

[STUKA]

I think this is very perfect for the industry - nothing like good American business competition. If AT and BBI choose to communicate then they should by all means communicate.

A company is not in any market to please other companies - but to survive and make money -

It would be bad business for company A to tell company B what their plans are when both companies are selling to the same market.

Does Coke tell Pepsi about the next big promo? No but Pepsi still jumps into the market - for example - both coke and pepsi compete for the bottled water market, the sports drink, market, and the energy drink market - I doubt both companies sat down at a table and discussed who should take what market? "No by all means you take the water market - we are not interested in money there?"

From what I have observed it is not out of the question that AT is finding out what planes are in production at 21st and making the same plane....What! AT actually the ones copying? Would be good busines on ATs part as they have to go up against two larger companies in competition. If AT is able to get BBI in to sit down and discuss their future projects - all I can say is wow - great Job AT.

Business competition is great and needed - is what makes America great. it is almost scary that people think everyone should be sensitive toward one company or another - dont get me wrong -I am all for AT! I think the planes are beautiful - The Dauntless will be my first purchase from their company - unless 21st century makes one that looks just as good, makes it cheaper, and makes it where I don't have to pay for shipping. I was going to purchase the 262 from AT but will wait for 21st to see which one is better and cheaper and easier to pick up. Competition..

The business world is dog eat dog - you dont want competition period..

You spend a lot of money to know your competition -

you then must out promote your competition and if your competition makes a better product - you must step up to the plate and make one better.

BBI I bought the F4U - over the 21st - even though 21st was cheaper - why - i liked BBIs better and it was available when I wanted it without having to pay shipping

winner BBI

who knows I still may purchase the F4 from AT - depends on everything I have discussed above

for all companies - your planes and vehicles are beautiful and amazing -

[grunt1]

like you, I suspect that the 21stCT image may be of the 1/32 prototype

Interesting observation.. ?

[Birddog]

TKO,

How about posting some picture of the 1/18 Phantom instead of the 1/32 Phantom? If it has been in design for so long, shoudn't there be a prototype that can be shown since the cats out of the bag now?