New BBI Mustang!

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:24 pm

I think I will wait for 21st to re-tool the p51. My bets are with them that they will ultimately end up with the better pony. I rest my case with the new 109G pic that p-51 just posted. Look at the deatil and all the moving parts.... You can bet that they will be looking at the same kind of quality and detail as that new 109. If I am wrong I will eat my words by purchasing the BBI offering after I see what 21st will do. I will be first in line to say I was wrong.... If I am wrong.

Rogo · Post by **Rogo** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:16 pm

vmf214 wrote:I think his point is no one needs to make a mountain out of a mole hill with the name of the plane! Hope people that think the name is harsh don't own any Jerry Lee Lewis records...

Ya know, there is always the possibility that someone from BBI may be reading this board, and if some members are not thrilled with a paint scheme and they read it, then perhaps they will consider additional paint schemes. I don't see that as a negative.
I share my XD with elementary school children and tell the history behind them, and as much as I like BBI's new Mustang, "killer" won't work for me.
People should be allowed to voice opinion on this board without receiving cheap shots from others.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:34 pm

No cheap shot intended. Just some light hearted humor for a waaaaaaaaaaaay too politically correct world. Bottom line is these
planes were made as machines of war, not commuter planes. They were made to kill the enemy and achieve victory. The problem nowadays is we are afraid to teach our youth that victory is achieved through winning wars (i.e. killing) and not by talking about it over a cup of lotte and hiding the painful truth. But thats just one humble man's opinion.

toyktdlgh · Post by **toyktdlgh** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:46 pm

The name doesn’t seem bad at all to me. That being said, I can see how the name might be a little much for the younger audiences. We can all have different opinions on likes and dislikes of various airplanes and paint schemes. That’s what makes this forum interesting.

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:04 pm

'Killer' was a popular nickname back in the 40's which is why it was probably adopted for this pilot's particular plane.

Just watch any gangster/action/boxing movies from the late 30's and early 40's and you'll undoubtedly hear somebody call someone 'killer'. As in 'hey Killer, take it easy now'. It was sort of a light hearted nickname...

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:21 am

I am going to buy the bbi P-51 because I think it will be one bad bird. Just the same, I think the 21st retool will be awesome too, so I will eventually buy it. Maybe we will be lucky and 21st will come out with a P-51 B model (Shang-ri-la). As for the name "killer" on the bbi ship, I agree with Aferg that it was more of a nickname. Heck, I teach too and I call some of my students killer so I wouldn't be too worried.
Aaron

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:42 am

The pilot fig in the crusher I think will replace Cpl. Esquivel as my all time favorite 1/18th fig. He looks classic, like he could be in one of the pics in my collection or he is wearing one of the unis out of my 1:1 collection. Yes!
Aaron

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:56 am

'the crusher'........what's a 'crusher'?

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:08 am

Crusher is a term used to describe the officer's or enlistedman's visor or peaked hat as worn by the AAF during WWII or the USAF during Korea. Aircrew members were allowed to take the metal stiffening ring out of the top of the visor hat so to allow easier wear of radio headsets. Because the ring was removed, the hats would crush in from the headsets---thus the name crusher. It came to be reconized as a status symbol to have a crusher instead of a standard peaked visor.
Aaron

flayrah · Post by **flayrah** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:08 am

Yes, "killer" was a common term fifty or sixty years ago. And so was "sluggo", "goofus", and quite a few ethnic and racial terms that I won't post in public. We don't use those terms today - "pc" or not - because this is a different time. In the future, words that are used now, will fall out of favor and possibly be looked down upon. My point is I am aware that WWII phrases and words were accurate and acceptable for WWII, but does that mean we should still be applying those today, or take it in context of it's time? Realistically, there aren't that many people with much more than a surface knowledge of WWII, and to them seeing the name "killer" will not bring up thoughts of a quaint vintage term, but rather something more hostile. If something is 100% accurate to the era, I'm all for it personally, but that doesn't mean I want my family or friends to be subjected to fighting and holding grudges over a war from sixty years ago. During the war, a B-17 was shot down and most of the crew captured - the name of the A/C was "Murder Inc" (another common 1940's term - 'It's murder') - and the Germans took every opportunity to photograph and distrubute propaganda of the aircraft nose art and crew flight jackets to show the German people that the Americans were nothing but killers out to destroy Germany. I'm not trying to start an argument, this is my opinion.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:29 am

where exactly did you see this figure with the crusher hat? I want to see what we are talking about here but I con't see what figure you are talking about.

flayrah · Post by **flayrah** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:35 am

A good photo of the pilot by himself is:
http://69.93.119.2/photo/1/showphoto.ph ... 817&page=3

I'm glad to see the shoulders on these figures seem to be in scale, ball-jointed shoulders can often be made oversized

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:59 am

It's not like BBI is making this up. "Killer" was the logo on the side of this particular P-51. That's just the way it was. It's nowhere near as offensive as a swastika and i think that most, if not all of us want swastikas on our german planes. Not because we idolize nazism and all that it stood for but because that's the way German aircraft looked back then and we want out models/toys to look as realistic as possible.

To be honest ANY war machine is itself far more 'offensive' than the painted words or logos upon it.

This argument comes up from time to time on Missing-Lynx, where people debate the 'ethics' of making models of tanks, how gorey diormas 'should be', are there any types of machines that should be off limits (eg Israeli Bulldozers that crush people in their homes) etc.

The conclusion is always the same. Each of us must treat this hobby as we see fit for ourselves and no one should try to tell somebody else how they should do it. I tend to agree with this point. But it also requires a degree of individual responsibility.

I have made a few custom vignettes that are pretty graphic and disturbing. Not because i think gore, depravity and mutilation are neat....just the opposite in fact. I made these pieces because evey now and again i want to remind myself that war is not the fun and games it can be reduced to by plastic toys.

But that's just me. Many others may have no interest in having such things in their collection. And that's perfectly fine too. But one thing i have not done is come on here, or anywhere else and describe in detail these pieces which i know some will find offensive, even in concept. So that is where i use my judgement. I keep such things to myself.

It's an absolute fact that Stukas bombed defensless civilians, that Corsairs dropped napalm and that some US soldiers in Vietnam killed women and children etc etc. War is totally awful. Most of us have learned to separate this fact from our hobby.

The word 'Killer' is really not very offensive, in my opinion. If it said 'Baby Killer', 'Raper' or something like that it would be far more so. But, like pretty much every single thing in life, you can't please or appeal to everyone. Some may be offended by the word 'Killer'. Others would be offended if it was a naked girl on the side of the plane and still others are offended by the mere fact that it is a war machine...

It's always a question of degrees, not absolutes and those that are troubled by something should simply not buy it (as some have stated that they won't).

By the way....if you think 'Killer' painted on the side of a P-51 is offensive you should check out some of the modern video games. The graphic violence is absolutely incredible. I don't think any young kids these days are going to be troubled by the word 'Killer' on the side of a toy plane when they are exposed to such violence images in movies, video games, comic books etc. (ever read a Spawn comic?)

KAMIKAZE · Post by **KAMIKAZE** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:11 am

It's not a big harry deal to just paint out what is offensive to a few people.
Ground crews often replaced panels damadged in battle with new sheet
metal.I think this makes the planes look more realistic.I would like to see
the planes produced as close to historically correct as possible.

Mark

corpbob · Post by **corpbob** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:02 am

Perhaps a P-51 without the six .50 cal. machine guns would be even better. A crop-dusting model perhaps, or would the thought of chemicals be just too much?

Rogo · Post by **Rogo** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:07 am

I agree with you 100% aferg! Growing up in the 50's, it was certainly a different time as far as attitiudes toward what is "correct". I personally have no problem with the BBI mustang as is and I'm as fanatical about accuracy as anybody. I just hoped after waiting sooo long for a finely detailed example, as BBI's is, that I could get one to cart into the classroom without catching flak from faculty. Unfortunately I know this would happen. But as others have suggested, maybe a little paint-over would do the trick (maybe have 2, a home edition and class edition

). I really want the little guys to see the detail on this bird and get some history on it!
Thanks and sorry for not clarifying this in my earlier post.

Rogo

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:43 pm

Rogo wrote:
vmf214 wrote:I think his point is no one needs to make a mountain out of a mole hill with the name of the plane! Hope people that think the name is harsh don't own any Jerry Lee Lewis records...
Ya know, there is always the possibility that someone from BBI may be reading this board, and if some members are not thrilled with a paint scheme and they read it, then perhaps they will consider additional paint schemes. I don't see that as a negative.
I share my XD with elementary school children and tell the history behind them, and as much as I like BBI's new Mustang, "killer" won't work for me.
People should be allowed to voice opinion on this board without receiving cheap shots from others.

No cheap shot, light hearted humor as CW4 stated. Over-sensitivity and machines of war go together like gasoline and flame. I'm all for history and dead against the censorship of it. To take the name literal is just plain silly and why is it even an issue? I guess then today if you were considered a "lady killer" you'd be a wanted man??? Give me a break, please. This kind of thinking is what got german related toys off the shelves at TRU, got historical nazi items banned from Yahoo and ebay, and I could go on. Maybe the history of the phrase should be taught hand in hand with the history of the pilot and the aircraft...just a thought.

Rogo · Post by **Rogo** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 10:08 pm

VMF214,
Please read my last post, I think it will clarify my situation. Then how about we move on. Too many other exciting things to talk about

flayrah · Post by **flayrah** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 pm

In all this discussion, has anyone mentioned the unit designator on the model should be GQ, not GO....

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:53 am

http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/scotts/decals ... s48791.htm

Good observation Flayrah!

Should be easy to fix, if BBI doesn't catch it themselves for the production model. What a gaff to make though..

tracer · Post by **tracer** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:45 am

I really like the whole package. I'll have to try and get that one also.
BBD 4 A BBI A.S.A.P.?

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:13 am

The "Killer" P-51 profile has been added to the Profile Album! Thanks for the heads up.............

-Ski

Rogo · Post by **Rogo** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:41 am

Maybe I missed it, but have there been any pics with the engine cover removed? I'd sure like to see how BBI did on the Merlin.

mburduck · Post by **mburduck** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:29 pm

That Mustang looks great, and I personally love the name "Killer."

A crop duster version--that had me in stitches!

Mike

mburduck · Post by **mburduck** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:45 am

If there's a manufacturer out there who's actually reading our posts and acting on our suggestions, can you come up with a better definition of paradise? As a famous inmate might say, that's a good thing!

Mike

Small Scale Military Headquarters

New BBI Mustang!

Wow yet again

Pilot Fig

To Aferg