Phantom II for 89.99?

[tkjaer21]

I will continue to collect from all three companies regardless. I am gratefull that we have them. A point on the few A-10 schemes, look at BBI, they only have 1 Apache scheme, 2 Blackhawk/Pavehawk schemes, 1 Abrams scheme and so on. Heck, 21st has the Bradley and Super Cobra in only 2 different schemes. Those are excellent pieces in that same modern era. 21st should realize that all they would have to do is push more modern era stuff and it would become the mainstream.

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings,

A push for modern stuff by one of these companies would be a great market niche. I thought BBI was going that way with the Hornet and the Falcon and the modern helicopters but now it appears they are working back to World War II with the release of the Hellcat. There are some people that only collect modern era aircraft, it would be a great way to gain market share. Maybe the Phantom is the start of that for someone.

I agree with almost everyone though that in this hobby, which has a limited marketshare and people who love to collect in it, the plane duplication is becoming a problem. I do not really mind a company repainting an aircraft or offering different versions of the same plane with the same mold, as it gives the buyer choice. However, I do start to mind when you have limited space, and two or three companies continue to produce the same model all the time. I understand everyone's frustrations, it's difficult choosing which to buy and can be upsetting with the preorders offered online.

I personally think the most overkilled plane on the market is the P-51 Mustang. I thought it was nice 21st Century retooled it, but honestly, was that to improve their model or to compete with the BBI model? There are so many models of the P-51 from so many companies it is really ridculous (unless you are a Mustang lover like Mighty Mustang). I kind of honestly hope there is not another P-51 repaint for awhile, we do not need it. I am with a lot of people on here, we need new and different models.

When this hobby first started, 21st was kind of alone on it. Then BBI came along and offered some competition but nothing that 21st didn't seem to handle. It seemed like 21st and BBI kind of stayed out of each other's way and made good products. Now Admiral has come along, produced some very exciting airplanes and has put the pressure on 21st to build better and quicker. It seems like there is fierce competition between these two companies, moreso than both representives talk about on this board. I do understand there are secrets in the industry, but this latest annoucement does seem really odd. In the end, as consumers, we can only watch and see what happens.

It is just a shame that there are so many great airplanes out there that have not been made and will not be made because the companies do not want to risk the investment and make something that might just rock everyone's world. There is just so much to be made, and we get the same model from everyone. Makes no sense!

Corey

[STUKA]

This is fun to read - but the simple fact is...

The three companies we all know and love - (we give them our hard earned money) are doing what every company in competition with another company does. There is no love loss, no group hugs at the end of the day. All three companies want your money - they want to make the best military toys they can. All three want to be on top.

Sure when we were kids playing king of the hill - we did sometimes team up to get the bigger kid off the top - but we then had to turn on one another - and one of came tumbling down.

Even the small e-companies are fighting for your business. They are at a disadvantage to begin with because 21st Century mass produces for WM.
AT appears to be doing well for a small company - One can equal their path to any small company entering a market. Examples of small companies making it? Walmart, Chickfilet...for starters....

This competition is a great thing! I have spent countless hours hearing the moans of fellow forum members crying the end of 1:18 is near...what are we to do with no XD... etc...etc...

but this competition - chess match is a sign - the industry is healthy -
even though the Avengers were clearanced at WM - 21st still made their profit - WM also made a Profit.

I have one close by WM that had two S1 Migs for $25 - they are now sitting with 4 s3 and 2 s2 migs at full price.

if one of our beloved companies goes under - then that is business - that company made the wrong choices at the wrong time.

If you say they did not have a fair advantage or they were forced out of business by another - not fair - mom!!

then - well - that is your government school education speaking -
we are were we are as a company based on the decisions we make (both good or bad)

So I say bring on the competition - it is the best avenue and chance for you hunger strikers - it is the best chance for us to see russina, british, and japanese vehicles - it is the best chance for us to fill our homes with XD - and our best chance we are sitting with a marriage counselor over XD spending.

STUKA

[USMCWayne]

Wow. 11 pages and over 200 comments on the 21C Phantom...and the first comment was made after I checked in yesterday morning.

As far as I'm concerned, this is some of the greatest 1/18th news I've seen...and not a sign of the coming apocalypse.

Bring it on. I'll take two.

[tkjaer21]

STUKA, in your theory, AT has to take its losses and lose regardless because of bad timing or decision making. That is insane considering the fact that 21st can do that to any model that comes out at any time because they probably already have a mock up of it as we speak. So, if I were to build a Hawker Hurricane for example, and 21st all of the sudden decides later that day/week/month, that they are building one as well and put a cheeper price point on it, that I have to pack my bags and go home. That is nonsense. That is hurting the industry and themselves. The thing that 21st has over the other competition is that they have more experience and tenure. They probably do have a lot of mock ups around ready to start any time soon. I think as a smart business person, they should welcome the competition because it already promotes the small hobby for 1:18th. Not many people know about it. To make it mainstream, you need every company working together because they cannot afford to stay around as long as we would like to think. Without Wal-Mart, 21st would be a small mom-and-pop shop as well. We would only be able to buy them through e-tailers and vary limeted hobby shops. Just think, Toys-R-Us dropped them. Maybe they would not have gotten far without BBI and their fan base. I know that when I first started collecting, I thought 21st was a cheap company and that BBI was in many ways better. BBI is why I stared collecting and I just skipped on the 21st stuff until the Cobra came out. I do not think I would have ever got into the hobby if it were not for them. Once I had all of the BBI modern stuff, I decided to take a leap and go the WWII 21st century route. I am quite pleased that we have each company, I just do not think in the long run for any one of them at this point in time, that they should duplicate or push each other out. On a side note, I was dissapointed that BBI did the P-51 and the F-4U as well.

[warhawker]

Sorry, to refer back to my Swordfish/Bismarck scenario...This is all in jest and I could not resist getting a visual.

[od1each]

What's the big deal?

McDonald's has a chicken sandwich............so does Burger King.

Just pick one!!!! lol!!!!!!!!!!!

[coreystinson]

I agree. Since both companies have already had this product in development for quite some time, it is not fair to blame one or the other for "undercutting" each other. Obviously, it would be nice if they could communicate a little bit so as to avoid duplicating each others' efforts and maybe produce something else that we'd all like to see (*cough* A-10 *cough*) but in a competitive environment I assume that most if all parties have decided that the better part of valor is to keep their projects to themselves.

Also, because 21st has their contract with Wal-mart they have some motivation to go ahead and produce their own versions of certain models anyway, regardless of what Admiral (and to some extent, BBI) do.

[thetatau87]

On a side note, I was dissapointed that BBI did the P-51 and the F-4U as well.

You would have been happy with just the original 21c P-51 and F-4U? Those two 21c aircraft were quite bad in terms of detail and accuracy. Competition from BBI has given us versions of these aircraft that are much better as well as a much wider selection of paint schemes.

Collectors have to realize that we are only a small part of the 1:18 market. There are still lots of people out there who don't know 1:18 aircraft exist. The P-51 and F-4 have huge mass appeal and will be constant best sellers because new people are always finding out about 1:18 by seeing it at WM. Sure different aircraft would be great for collectors because we already have one or more of the P-51, F-4U, P-47, etc... The fact is that there are still plenty of people out there that want them. 1:18 companies will continue to do repaints and duplications/retools of competitors aircraft and their own for the really popular types and that is good, because it creates more profit for them and results in more money for development of new aircraft in the future.

[Flytiger]

Something no one seems to have thought of in all of this - the difference in price may be how the product is configured. Keep in mind the array of stuff that can hang off a Phantom II.

AT may include a complete set of ordnance - everything in one box.

21C might have an $89.99 WallyWorld package and have option kits to configure the bird the way you want.

Just a thought.

[thetatau87]

Something no one seems to have thought of in all of this - the difference in price may be how the product is configured. Keep in mind the array of stuff that can hang off a Phantom II.

AT may include a complete set of ordnance - everything in one box.

21C might have an $89.99 WallyWorld package and have option kits to configure the bird the way you want.

Just a thought.

I thought of that too, but the 21c announcement says that the F-4 will come with a "full compliment of tanks and weapons." Unless AT includes 2-3 full sets of ordinance it wouldn't be enough to make up the price difference. I bet most of the difference is just in volume. The rest is probably that the AT F-4 will have better quality materials. AT has already hinted several times that metal landing gear are going to be introduced on something soon.

Also, the $140 price has already been pulled off the Badcat site because it is not the actual cost, just an estimate. I'm sure AT will do everything they can to make their F-4 cost competitive, but they can't do anything about the huge volume advantage 21c has.

[Jericoeagle1]

I think this entire conflict makes apparent the dangers of a monopoly. Say that due to this and other incidents Admiral goes out of business. Then you have BBI and 21st. BBI seems to be slowing down on its releases of 1/18 leaving 21st the market. What happens? With lack of competition you can set prices at your leisure, limit choices (no modern anymore, WWII items only), since your the only real manufacturer now everyone has to buy from you alone so there is no need to be innovative or meticulous. Even if new releases are made I believe the timing between them will be long and tedious because there is no reason to rush.

Having competion forces everyone to listen to thier customers wants and needs.

Look at how Walmart limits 21st? They have a monopoly on 21st products at retail. What does that mean, they can distribute how they want and price how they want. There are 21st products that have never made it here to the NorthWest but I hear of dozens being sent everywhere else. Thats why I shop exclusively BadCat now. But wouldn't it be great if you could go to Target, Penny's, Sears or yes even K-Mart and find that much desired XD plane at your leisure?

I am disapointed that 21st came out with the F-4 but that was thier choice. I'm hoping that Admiral makes a killing on the Dauntless and Skyraider to offset any losses they may incur.

Yes its all just business but sometimes its just not right.

[Jericoeagle1]

Humm I just had a revelation. Jason said he had spoke with BBI for 4 hours. I wonder if they made a deal that Admiral would make a 1/18 Dauntless and Phantom while BBI could make a 1/32 one so they wouldn't step on each others toes....Interesting if true, both would benifit.

[jeffrowse]

I thought of that too, but the 21c announcement says that the F-4 will come with a full load of bombs, missiles and drop tanks. Unless AT includes 2-3 full sets of ordinance it wouldn't be enough to make up the price difference.

There's a world of difference between "a full load of bombs, missiles and drop tanks" and "a selection of kit to make every possible warload for a Phantom".
I've seen photos of a Brit Phantom carryng three Vulcan gunpods and a centreline tank - will the C21 bird ship with 3 gunpods? Will it include the Mavericks, 'Winders and Sparrows carried by the -4E when paired with the Wild Weasel -4G? How many laser designator or ECM pods will it come with?
The RAF purchased some -4Js in the mid-80s as a stop-gap while awaiting the Tornado ADV - will the C21 bird have the SNEB rocket pods as carried on the Triple Ejector Racks slung under the 'Winder-carrying inner wing pylons by 74 Sqn?

C21 have been around for quite a while and have quite a few models "almost ready to go" - so why do they announce another variant of 'plane X (in this case the Phantom) so soon after AT announce one? Yes, they had it in development but they say they have other 'planes as well - so why the Phantom and why now? Because the time is right for the 1/18th Phantom, or because someone else has one too?
Rather than go head-to-head with AT again, why not give the collectors and kids something different?

Why can't C21 do the A10? If I remember, the original excuse, sorry reason was that it's too complicated to do. What, a straight fuselage with straight wings, two engine pods and a simple slab tail is complicated?
Boogers, I wonder how the heck they'd cope with a saw-toothed wing with anhedral, a dihedral tailplane and an area-ruled "cokebottle" fuselage - like, say, the Phantom.
As for limited paint schemes, someone has already pointed out the vast array of choice with the Cobra...

What I really want to know is, when are they going to release any British (or European) aircraft? There's plenty to choose from - so far we've had the Spitfire and... um, oh wait, that's all. Where's the Harrier, the Hurricane, the Lightning, Canberra (sorry, B57 to you Colonials )*, Tornado, Typhoon, Tempest, Defiant, Fury/Sea Fury, Hunter, Venom, Vampire... I'll just wait 'til AT announce their Brit collection, I guess...

Sorry for ranting a little, I'll head back to the hangar now...

*This is meant as a joke - some of my best friends are Colonials.. oh wait, that doesn't sound any better really does it??

[Rogo]

I find it very unfortunate that 21st is unwilling to come to the table with Admiral and BBI to discuss future projects. With so many great aircraft yet to be made, time and money is wasted on duplication. And how does it benefit us to lose one of the 3 manufacturers because financially they cannot absorb the loss in sales. Admiral has done a lot to raise the bar on quality and features in 1:18. I only hope they can weather this on-going game of 'Me too!'

Rogo

[cocimitch]

OK

First time poster, but I have been reading this forum for a loooong time, and feel I should put my 2 cents in.

You guys shouldn't grumble too much. 1/18th scale is going strong, and yes competition is good because we get product faster (?) and less expensive. There IS going to be overlap especially if the mfgs. read these forums - let's see, we all wanted an F4, A10, B25 - so if I were a mfg. I would do it to make sales. (a B25 makes the hair on my neck stand up!)

Don't ride AT, 21st or BBI too much, they are just giving us what we want
Just because I like Ford pickups doesn't mean that Chevy makes the best sportscar...

Mitch

[VMF115]

My fear is that AT will not produce the F-4.
I wrote it before but I have sinking feeling that they might not produce it.
I just hope AT makes the F-4

[tkjaer21]

That is what I was thinking VMF, I think if they do go ahead and make it, make it rare to get.

[VMF115]

That is what I was thinking VMF, I think if they do go ahead and make it, make it rare to get.

Well anything they make is rare.
Make it to rare and not to many folks can afford one.

[KAMIKAZE]

This thread has turned into quite a pissing contest. The competition between 21st Century and Admiral is actually pretty tame compared to the exploits of companys like Standard oil or NCR. There are still many subjects out there to be made. I will buy both versions of the Phantom because I'm just sick that way.

Mark

[tkjaer21]

Just like the XBOX 360 is better than the PS3 and Nintendo Wii. I don't think that it is that competitive. At least AT has stepped in and are making the much sought after Dauntless after all of these years. The Skyraider is unique and a must have as well.

[STUKA]

STUKA, in your theory, AT has to take its losses and lose regardless because of bad timing or decision making. That is insane considering the fact that 21st can do that to any model that comes out at any time because they probably already have a mock up of it as we speak. l.

not a theory -smart business - my guess is AT actually knew about the 21st F4 - someone else mentioned that 21st once upon a time did state they had a mock up or model made when they did a A-10 - for all we know both companies both have pre-production stuff going on on many planes - this is just a race to A) announce first - and then race to get the F4 in the market before the other company - steal their thunder so to speak -
for all we know AT is the one making the duplicate plane - they only announced first.

It is all fun and we get to sit back and watch these companies compete for our Money - we do appear to have some minor influence as well - This is just the start

I dont think AT is easily pushed aside - the skyraider and dauntles were a big surprise as we did not see 21st jump out and sing look at ours!

AT is making this XD world better!

[tkjaer21]

I agree STUKA, I just wish that both, AT and 21st, did not duplicate as they both have a lot to offer and there is such a big variety to chose from. As a collector, we want them all.

[VMF115]

I dont think AT is easily pushed aside - the skyraider and dauntles were a big surprise as we did not see 21st jump out and sing look at ours!

Not yet.

[Jericoeagle1]

The Skyraider and Dauntless are pretty close to release I believe maybe by summer. Good sales of those may offset any loss occured by the F-4 announcement. I know I'm up for multiples of both aircraft.