Phantom II for 89.99?

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:47 pm

I swear I was doing this for the whole time!

http://www.sshqdb.com/images/emoticons/duh.gif

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:49 pm

aferguson wrote:with the possible exception of mentioning the price point, i don't believe that 21c is deliberately targeting AT for hostile action. Both these planes are well along in their devopment and as we should all be aware by now, these big beauties don't happen overnight.

The F-4 is such an obvious choice to be made that it is not surprising that more than once company will make it. I don't recall everyone dumping on BBI when they made a Corsair YEARS after 21c had already produced one and they also did it with the P-51 and Sherman tank as well. 21c was struggling back then but i don't remember any kind of a witch hunt directed at BBI.

The fact is there will be a huge market for this plane, just like there is for multiple mustangs and corsairs and i would bet each company sells all they can make.

There are those who will be loyal to AT, those loyal to 21c and those who will get both and those who will get neither; and i'm sure each company's offering will have things we like about it and don't like about it.

The fact is gang, this is going to keep happening over and over, so you may as well get used to it. The gene pool for 1/18 airplanes is just too small for it not to happen.

And getting back to 21c announcing the price, well, TKO brought up a very good point and i think it's a case of 21c being damned if they do and damned if they don't. Announce the price and everyone burns them for undercutting AT, don't announce it and when it comes out for less than AT's offering everyone burns them for not telling them.

I too am concerned as to what impact this may have on AT, being a new company, but they have shown they are good business people as well as good toy builders and i'm sure they can adapt, if necessary. They weren't planning on a release til year's end so i'm sure they have plenty of time to rethink things, if that's even required. They will know best.

Relax and be happy we are getting this bird at all and let's not bite the hands that are feeding us our nice toys.

Agree there 100% Aferg!!!

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:49 pm

tko211 wrote:Here is the answer on the A-10 as it has been told to me.

TOO BIG, TOO COSTLY, FOR ONLY a FEW SCHEMES.

You got your camo, and you got a whole ton of boring low vis greys! Compare that to the colorful carrier markings of the phantom, show schemes, thunderbirds, blue angles, camos, other countries!!!!! Kinda starts to make sense! YOU HAVE TO MOVE LOTS OF PLANES TO MAKE ANY MONEY!

Air national guard A-10's ain't goning to cut it! NOW would I personally love to see one for my collection grey or not YES! But I would only need one GREY bird and I would be done! Maybe a camo...

The F-4 is a GREAT choice and THAT is why there is duplication!

May make sense for an A-10, but what about B-25, hundreds of great schemes, how about FW-190, it is small and numerous paint schemes too?

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:49 pm

I knew this would get some good discussion going the moment I saw the coverage from AT on Sunday!

21st simply has no reason to back away or stands to gain anything from working with the competition. That is just the way business is. I belive AT could gain something from knowing what 21st plans. But what does 21st really gain from that move? It isn't mean. It's just business and 21st doesn't need to back away from an investment position in a market that frankly affords 2 planes of the same type. See Afergs posts for more info. on that!

I love my 21st Sabre and I know I will love my Me-262's in both versions. I frankly am glad 21st made them!

Besides! Do you know how many GREAT phantom schemes there are! TONS of them!

USCGSARdog · Post by **USCGSARdog** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:52 pm

CW4USARMY..... I wholeheartedly agree with all that you have had to say on this subject. Lay it on 'em.

tko211..... no arguments here, after all it is 21C's money to make..... or loose.

-Rob

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:53 pm

B-25 is a GREAT subject! Lots and lots of schemes. Size is big! Bigger than the F-4... Could be done though!

Black_Dragon_One · Post by **Black_Dragon_One** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:53 pm

TKO

I did not mean to attack you... you brought goods news that stuff is coming out... that is always a positive....

i would rather 21st spent there money on making the f14....... they would do a good job on that...

i think the f14 stands a long with the f4 as having repaints...

well guys you know were my money goes so you make up you mind...

if 21st century comes out with something that at did not make i buy it... if it ever come to my wally world..

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:54 pm

aferguson wrote:with the possible exception of mentioning the price point, i don't believe that 21c is deliberately targeting AT for hostile action. Both these planes are well along in their devopment and as we should all be aware by now, these big beauties don't happen overnight.

The F-4 is such an obvious choice to be made that it is not surprising that more than once company will make it. I don't recall everyone dumping on BBI when they made a Corsair YEARS after 21c had already produced one and they also did it with the P-51 and Sherman tank as well. 21c was struggling back then but i don't remember any kind of a witch hunt directed at BBI.

The fact is there will be a huge market for this plane, just like there is for multiple mustangs and corsairs and i would bet each company sells all they can make.

There are those who will be loyal to AT, those loyal to 21c and those who will get both and those who will get neither; and i'm sure each company's offering will have things we like about it and don't like about it.

The fact is gang, this is going to keep happening over and over, so you may as well get used to it. The gene pool for 1/18 airplanes is just too small for it not to happen.

And getting back to 21c announcing the price, well, TKO brought up a very good point and i think it's a case of 21c being damned if they do and damned if they don't. Announce the price and everyone burns them for undercutting AT, don't announce it and when it comes out for less than AT's offering everyone burns them for not telling them.

I too am concerned as to what impact this may have on AT, being a new company, but they have shown they are good business people as well as good toy builders and i'm sure they can adapt, if necessary. They weren't planning on a release til year's end so i'm sure they have plenty of time to rethink things, if that's even required. They will know best.

Relax and be happy we are getting this bird at all and let's not bite the hands that are feeding us our nice toys.

Oh yeah, the small little point about them announcing price point....WHAT?!?!? ....are you kidding me? that is not a small little point, that IS the point! A direct undercut of Admiral's potenetial pre-orders before they even get started. Not a small point by any stretch of imagination. It cant be explained away that easily.

Some folks will eat crap, be talked into liking it, and then ask for more....hilarious!

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:54 pm

CW4USARMY-

Actually the plane came in higher from 21st than I expected! Makes you wonder what it might have been if AT hadn't announced 150!!!!

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:55 pm

Maybe from a company's stand point it is no big deal, but you have to understand us TKO.

Not only am I lost as to which model, and which variant in 21stCT case to buy, I am also losing money, because, pre-orders are significantly cheaper. I cant pre-order, because I dont know which company will make the better model. Of course I want to buy the better, more detailed model, but I cant. I also dont need two Phantoms, so dont say buy both and compare.

Times like this, I wish I never started collecting.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:57 pm

Moth-

It's cool man! I know your point. Don't worry you have about 11 months to decide!

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:58 pm

Hi Guys,

Officer Candidate Chunks wrote: “Once is a mistake… twice is enemy action”

Let’s look at the facts. 21st Century Toys had announced the Me-262 way before there was an Admiral Toys. Admiral Toys decided to roll the dice and release an airplane that we had already announced and had been in development. As it happens, the 21C 262 project had finally been green lighted (after throwing out the old pattern and starting from scratch) at least 9 months before Admiral made their announcement. Same story with the Sabre. It was in development long before Admiral made their announcement. It had to be. We cannot go from a standing start to product on the shelves in a short time. The process of producing such a large, detailed, and functional aircraft model is extremely time consuming.

21st Century Toys created the 18th scale airplane collectible market. At all times, we have a number of new 1/18th aircraft in development. We do not react to other’s choices. We have no plans for a Hellcat. Why? We studied it and determined that there were other aircraft that were higher priority to develop. Our line for the next two years has already been decided. Admiral again chose to do an obvious A-list airplane. The Phantom was in front-line service for something like 40 years! It has been on the top of our list for years now. It is a very bold choice for Admiral to make based on the realities of this market. For all we know, BBI may have one in development as well. Let’s hope not, but if they do, I’m sure they would not throw away months of work and hundreds of thousands of dollars of development and tooling cost just to let another company have all the sales. We won’t either.

I understand how frustrating it is for the collector, but understand that we have a long range game plan and we are sticking to it. If there is duplication of effort, that’s unfortunate, but the list of A-list airplanes is finite, and the more companies that get into this game, the more this is going to happen. We have a number of other exciting 1/18th scale aircraft announcements planned for the next few months. No, it’s not a Skyraider or a Dauntless! Please understand that while we are not a small mom and pop company anymore, we are still enthusiasts at heart and do our very best to bring our customers the coolest military collectibles we can make.

The retail price is set by many factors, and not in response to outside forces. The lower the price, the more units we can sell. It’s simple economics. In the end, the choice of whose Phantom you want to purchase is yours, but I can assure you, our Phantom will be to the highest standards of detail and accuracy. We’ve put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in to make it so. My guess is you’ll probably want to buy both.

Roy Sutherland
Designer/Product manager
21st Century Toys

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:58 pm

Well if there is any consolation for the AT version, I probably won't see the 21st Century version around here until they have been marked down to $25 because the shipment of 30 arrived after Christmas.

catman · Post by **catman** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:59 pm

-sigh-

*explodes

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:59 pm

we just need Mig19s & Mig21s to fight all these Phantoms.

i will probably buy wheel barrel loads of both.but if AT does the paint job i want first i buy them first

but most people will have to make big choices.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:01 pm

tko211 wrote:Hi Guys,

Officer Candidate Chunks wrote: “Once is a mistake… twice is enemy action”

Let’s look at the facts. 21st Century Toys had announced the Me-262 way before there was an Admiral Toys. Admiral Toys decided to roll the dice and release an airplane that we had already announced and had been in development. As it happens, the 21C 262 project had finally been green lighted (after throwing out the old pattern and starting from scratch) at least 9 months before Admiral made their announcement. Same story with the Sabre. It was in development long before Admiral made their announcement. It had to be. We cannot go from a standing start to product on the shelves in a short time. The process of producing such a large, detailed, and functional aircraft model is extremely time consuming.

21st Century Toys created the 18th scale airplane collectible market. At all times, we have a number of new 1/18th aircraft in development. We do not react to other’s choices. We have no plans for a Hellcat. Why? We studied it and determined that there were other aircraft that were higher priority to develop. Our line for the next two years has already been decided. Admiral again chose to do an obvious A-list airplane. The Phantom was in front-line service for something like 40 years! It has been on the top of our list for years now. It is a very bold choice for Admiral to make based on the realities of this market. For all we know, BBI may have one in development as well. Let’s hope not, but if they do, I’m sure they would not throw away months of work and hundreds of thousands of dollars of development and tooling cost just to let another company have all the sales. We won’t either.

I understand how frustrating it is for the collector, but understand that we have a long range game plan and we are sticking to it. If there is duplication of effort, that’s unfortunate, but the list of A-list airplanes is finite, and the more companies that get into this game, the more this is going to happen. We have a number of other exciting 1/18th scale aircraft announcements planned for the next few months. No, it’s not a Skyraider or a Dauntless! Please understand that while we are not a small mom and pop company anymore, we are still enthusiasts at heart and do our very best to bring our customers the coolest military collectibles we can make.

The retail price is set by many factors, and not in response to outside forces. The lower the price, the more units we can sell. It’s simple economics. In the end, the choice of whose Phantom you want to purchase is yours, but I can assure you, our Phantom will be to the highest standards of detail and accuracy. We’ve put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in to make it so. My guess is you’ll probably want to buy both.

Roy Sutherland
Designer/Product manager
21st Century Toys

Well said Roy!!! Thanks for the effort 21st is putting out...
And did I say... THANKS!!!

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:01 pm

As much as 21C seems to be picking on the little guy, and I can't stand the duplication, business is business. 21C and AT have spent the money on research and development, they have to recoup the money. Why no bashing of 21C duplicating BBi in 1/32 with this (if I saw the one Toy Fair picture correctly)? Only thing I can see is no price point for the 1/32.

From an equally cold-hearted consumer perspective - I wasn't going to spend $140 for the AT Phantom. Just too steep a price for a plane I "like" but don't have to have. But, by having the 21C F4 at Walmart, there's a great chance I can pick one up on clearance like I did with the Avenger. So, this is good news.

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:02 pm

I am happy 21st Century will make an E model Phantom. Maybe we will see a Thunderbird paint scheme. YEA!!!!

Big Duke 6 · Post by **Big Duke 6** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:05 pm

TKO: I appreciate your professionalism on this board while handling responses and questions. You speak well for 21st!! Thanks for the intell.

I came across a SIG SAUER Gun marketing rep that flamed and ripped an A**whole in a lad on a very big SIG Forum. Totally out of line and unprofessional.

Also thanks Aferg !! Well Said.

The price point is a big factor, but I will have to line these bad boys up and make a decision.

It would be awesome to remove both out of the box and pick out the better one based on appearance regardless of company and let the cards fall !!!

The 1/32 version will be great for those people with space issues. Honestly, I will probably buy both scales.

BD6

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:06 pm

well, as i said, in my opinion, 21c was damned if they do and damned if they don't as far as announcing the price was concerned. Dont announce it and they get lambasted by people who preorder the AT one at a higher price....."why didn't you tell us yours would be so much cheaper??"

So they do announce it and they get lambasted "what a dirty trick, undercutting AT".

Like it or not the toy business is still a business and that's the way business is.

And to whoever said that the bulk of the costs for the 21c A-10 are paid for: nothing could be further from the truth. Making a prototype is peanuts, cost-wise, versus the cost of tooling, doing a production run and packaging.....that's where all the money is spent.

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:06 pm

thanks Roy

for the input

i feel better now
P S i'm working on your Sea Fury cockpit as i read this
what a model you and Paul did

USCGSARdog · Post by **USCGSARdog** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:10 pm

Thanks for stepping in here Roy.

Hopefully I didn't come off as being p.o.'ed about all of this. If so I apologize. I think all of the drama gets me to scratching my head....... a little too hard sometimes. In the end, yes, 21C did get the whole 1/18 scale show rolling, and for that I will always be thankful.

We'll see how this all pans out in about 10 months.

-Rob

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:12 pm

aferguson wrote:TKO is not Roy. Roy is Roy. TKO is someone else.

Aferg..
The statement posted by TKO was from Roy.. He signed it at the bottom of the statement..

I had passed up the 21st Jets, but you can bet I will get a Phantom!!!!

USCGSARdog · Post by **USCGSARdog** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:13 pm

Aferg....... I don't recall saying"the bulk of the costs for the A-10 were paid for".

I did however say that they were "half way to producing a big seller".

-Rob

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:14 pm

One thing I just thought of....

Thank 21st Century Toys for announcing their Phantom now, not after each of us already bought Admiral's version!!!

If I would have seen another company make a better model than I have now I would crack my skull open, not to mention the total destruction of one of my walls.

I may have been a bit harsh in my previous posts, Sorry, rage had over taken me.