Problem with 21st Pre production aircraft

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:39 pm

A close friend of mine bought the avenger and was upset that it was not the same one in the box. His problem was that the torpedo doors and the antennas where not correct like the one showed on the box. So he took it back.

So I took a closer look for myself.

And I have noticed that the picture on the box are of more detailed aircraft then the ones that they sale.

I know that these aircraft are probably masters that they use prior to production, but it is deceptive in its practice. the aircraft is not the same
However there is a small statement that does mention styles and colors may very, but it does not mention the overall detail the aircraft is lacking.

Examples

The corsair in the pictures show a more accurate detailed landing gear and wider tires.

The f-104 shows working airbrakes.

The Avenger shows some extra antennas under the wing along with the correct bomb bay doors.

With what I know, I will still buy 21st products and I have explained to my good friend that the tooling required to make the aircraft as detailed as the Images on the box and how that would bring the price up. But I don’t think he bought it.

GAU-8 · Post by **GAU-8** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:00 am

i have to agree.

"picture of product , contained within this box" should match whats actually contained...... in the box.

i can understand discoloration/ minor varyation of colors, but things shown to be on box of moveable/workable design should be same as product inside. i understand mistakes happen. but saying product does"X" function, and it clearly does not... i feel slightly cheated.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:52 am

On the monkeydepot website. The 1:18 bbi "old crow" is described as having a removable engine cover and detailed merlin engine

Post by **aferguson** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:01 am

the picture on the box is usually of the paint prototype, which is often a smaller scale model that has been built up and painted. The packaging has to be done well in advance of production of the toy, so there is no opportunity to take a picture of the actual production plane and put that picture on the box.

If your friend is unhappy with it tell him to return it. I'm sure there are lots of others who would love to have it.

MightyMustang · Post by **MightyMustang** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:07 am

aferguson,

He did take it back. I do see some of they guys points here though and I see that their complaints are some times valid. I did an indepth study of my new tool Mustang and although its a very nice peice it is missing some things like the 3 ID lights underneith the right wing and for some reason 21st decided not to paint the fuel caps on the wings or the fusalge on their Ridge Runner P-51. Even though they still left out the ID lights on their Petie The 2nd P-51 they did paint the fuel caps on the wings and fusalge. Minor details that can be corrected simply if you want to.

And for Jay,

BBI never said they would have a removable engine cowl with detailed Merlin engine with their P-51 series, that some how got put into the item description and it was false. I contacted BBI about that and the Rep told me that that statement never came from them. It would have been cool if they would have done that but production costs would have been high as well as the price of the Mustang itself.

We must all understand though that these are toys and they are never going to be spot on, even though us collectors would love them to be. First series production runs are bound to have mistakes which normally are corrected as the line progresses. 21st has said they would correct the bent props and grey wheels on their P-51 series and I think they will. As for their Avenger? Give it time and I think the flaws will be ironed out. As I said first production runs do have a tendency to have errors.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:50 pm

mightymustang,
yeah, I figured as much. To be honest, that was one of the reasons why I opted to buy that particular mustang, but when I tried to look for more info on it - nothing came up. I figured if it did have an engine it should be all over this forum - but nothing. So I ordered it thinking, if it did have a merlin great - but if not oh well. Sounds like a good custom project!

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:00 pm

Often times the box production is running ahead of the finished model. It has been the case manytimes in the past that the pictures on the box are of paint masters / models. This is a common practice by many Toy companies some others have already been pointed out here on this thread. Its just the way things are done. I don't mind if it means we get product out a little faster.

MightyMustang · Post by **MightyMustang** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:57 am

Jay,

It would indeed be an awsome custom project but try and find a Merlin Engine in 1/18th scale. Thats the problem. I personally thought of taking a 1/24th Merlin and putting into a 1/18th Mustang but its too small and would look funny so I have forgotton about the idea all together. The Mustangs from both companies are nice the way they are.

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:44 am

There's your business opportunity knocking, a resin cast 1/18 engine.

merlin, daimler, allison,

You go to a hobby shop and they have tons of small "cottage" industries doing resin parts for kits.

DH

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:14 pm

MightyMustang wrote:aferguson,

BBI never said they would have a removable engine cowl with detailed Merlin engine with their P-51 series, that some how got put into the item description and it was false. I contacted BBI about that and the Rep told me that that statement never came from them. It would have been cool if they would have done that but production costs would have been high as well as the price of the Mustang itself.

I don’t know what the problem is but I found at least two web store that have stated that the bbi p-51 has the following:

Product Specifications:

•Bubble Canopy with sliding open/close action
•Super Detail Cockpit complete with control stick, gun sight and pilot seat
•Detail Panel Lines
•Workable Flaps
•Moveable Control Surfaces
•Workable Landing Gear
•Workable Landing Gear Door
•Workable Undercarriage
•Fully detailed Rolls Royce Merlin engine
•Removable Engine compartment cover
•Spinning Four Bladed Propellers

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:47 pm

The only two things comes to mind,
1. Some one started a false calm and then every one else followed suite with out knowing. “most likely“

2.. Bbi originally planed to make the P-51 with a detailed Merlin engine and a Removable Engine compartment cover, but decided that it would cost to much to make so bbi made it with out for the time being. Also bbi may have told its venders that that it would be removable before they decided not to add it. “A conspiracy theory” least likely but could happen

Also

I bought my first aircraft was the bbi Corsair Marine's Dream I bought it thinking that the 50 cal Machine Guns where visible as in removable panels. Oh well its still one of my favorite aircraft.

Bird-Cadge Canopy with sliding open/close action
•Super Detail Cockpit complete with control stick, gun sight and pilot seat
•Detail Panel Lines
•Workable Flaps
•Moveable Control Surfaces
•Workable Landing Gear
•Workable Landing Gear Door
•Workable Undercarriage
•Fully detailed Pratt-Whitney R-2800-18W Double Wasp 8-cylinder Radial Engine
•Spinning Three Bladed Propellers
•Folding Wings

Accessories:
•External Drop Tank x 2
•.50 cal (12.7 mm) Colt-Browning M2 •Machine Guns x 6
•5 in (127 mm) rockets x 8
Markings:

•Marine's Dream Nose Art
Figure:

As for 21st and bbi they proudly claim that they are “Extreme detail” and for bbi “As real as it gets” on there packaging and website’s.

I know they are toys but these toys are supposed to be historical accurate military toys. There are many others toy companies that make unrealistic military toys “cough, cough Hasbro,” I still think that 21st and bbi are making good products but they could still make them better.

I will still support them and buy their products, I believe that they are getting better and that it’s not cheap to make them. Lord knows how much money we spend on all of our collections. In the end it is we the customers that dictate what we will buy and not buy.

As for my friend he still feels deeply cheated, he felt that the picture on the TBA Avenger was the same one in the box.

So I will get off of my soap box now sorry.