JUNE 10th.....

75th Ranger · Post by **75th Ranger** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:01 pm

WHERE IS MY MOST PRORMISED MERRILL MARAUDERS SET!

I still want to know!

KWR190 · Post by **KWR190** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:55 pm

Thank you TKO for all your work. My look on this is when they come they come no reason to complain if it wasnt for 21st we wouldnt be with the stuff we have now.
Kurt

toyktdlgh · Post by **toyktdlgh** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:15 am

WHERE IS MY MOST PRORMISED MERRILL MARAUDERS SET!

It was at TRU months ago...

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:34 am

and sold very well to my understanding...

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:42 am

75th Ranger wrote:WHERE IS MY MOST PRORMISED MERRILL MARAUDERS SET!

I still want to know!

Well the 10 that went to TRU are gone, now you might find one on ebay and have to really $$$ want it to win it.

DH

digger · Post by **digger** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:02 am

lol guys - I think Ranger is venting his personal gripe with 21C not sending him one. I don't think he's wondering literally where they are/were.

toyktdlgh · Post by **toyktdlgh** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:31 am

lol, so he had one comming directly from them?

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:33 am

Thanks for the information TKO!

jeffrowse · Post by **jeffrowse** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:16 am

toyktdlgh wrote:lol, so he had one comming directly from them?

Dunno for sure, but I think he's recently said he did a writeup for the set so they promised him one as part-"payment...

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:08 pm

tko211 wrote:I also love my flying undertaker PTO P-51. It is nice to have those pieces.

I like mine too - it looks great next to my BBI Corsair and Zero!

Just had to throw that one in, but that's actually how I have it displayed

WGP Klaus · Post by **WGP Klaus** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:08 am

aferguson wrote:i quiver with anticipation...

so will we be collecting social security before these hit the shelves?

75th Ranger · Post by **75th Ranger** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:21 am

Well,

I just wish they would stop all the COLD WAR secrecy and post the ^&$&$^&# list of the up coming items so that we can make a budget for the things!

It is not fun anymore to wait for months in order to wait for more months to have to see 1 or 2 maybe 3 pics per week of the upcoming items!!!

not good marketing!!!!

boring, childish, and annoying!

furthermore, there is not even exact dates of release for most/some of these items...bah babahah !

And then we have to wait and see if Wally mart brings them....and in my Area, my local Walmarts "do not carry those items because they tend to cater the needs of a different ethinic group!" GO FIGURE!!!!

i like 1/6 becase I do all my shopping online and get what i need, but this forum was the birthplace of the hobby (well Groundpounders was) for many of us and i like the group!

"HOLD YOUR POSITION MEN!....DIG IN AND FIRE AT WHAT YOU CAN HIT!

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:58 am

I agree with Ranger, although i can see shipping and manuifacturing delays interfering with release dates.

I can see, in today's marketing, it isn't like the old days, when a manufacturer would make a product and before they announce that product, they had a warehouse full of that product sitting somewhere in the US waiting for orders. 21C, and almost all others with manufacturing plants outside the States announce a release when they order production to start and hope demand for that product will be high after that product arrives on the docks here, which is months away.

As with Ranger, my stores carry little or no 1/6, so I too went into 1/6 because I can get whatever I want online. My entire collectiln has been secured online, except for a very few store purchases (1/6 CC's on clearance at TRU, tipped to me by a board member) and a couple of 1/6 pieces secured for me by a couple of the excellent guys in this hobby, on this board, who knew of my 1/6 likes and bought pieces they knew I'd pay them for and just asked me for what they paid for it. How can you beat guys like that? One guy even found the item for me on one of his thousand mile buying trips and put my big item in his truck with precious little room for his own toys.

It's OT, but how can you beat guys like that?

This is a great board, and a great hobby, between this board and THE SIXTH DIVISION, there are enough good guys, to last a lifetime. THE SIXTH DIVION even has a bunch of "Silver Backs"......can't beat that when you are one.

Sorry for the OT. Now what were we talking about? OK, OK, I remember, SO when can I expect my new Sdfz 251?

The Fan Cluib says more 1/18 will be announced in the next few weeks. As, usual, I'm waiting, patiently waiting...

TTT

digger · Post by **digger** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:17 am

75th Ranger wrote:I just wish they would stop all the COLD WAR secrecy and post the ^&$&$^&# list of the up coming items so that we can make a budget for the things!

Ranger, this is an age old disagreement on this board. Some people say don't tell us until it is on the water (go back one page) or even closer, and others (like you, me, TTT) like to know what is in the pipe. I think 21st is trying to stradle that divide. And as TTT put it, delays happen and then people get pissed. Jason himself said this is a reason alone for not laying out long-dated plans. Just pointing out that not all the fans are on the same page with this one so we can't say it is annoying, childish, etc..

75th Ranger · Post by **75th Ranger** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:37 am

My dear friend Digger,

It is annoying, childish and boring!

If it is not ready don't mentione it!

if is mention it nd it is it in the works at least have a positve idea of the time frame.

I know you, better than that and even thought there are many different opions on the forum, the fact is that to have a goal you have to have an objective, and to achieve the objective you need a plan, and the plan needs to be executed in a timely manner; therefore, there needs to be a realsitic sense of time in order to fully accoplish a project. I know that there are relaistic delays and problemetic situations but any projct which deviates way of its time frame is not prone to much success. of course there are exectiosn but that is not my point. My point is that 21st, BBI, and others need to have a goal, a mission and a well plan in order to succed; thefore, they should be better at "guestimating" time and releases plus a good marketing camping before those items get relase would be an important asset.

two examples of weak planning and marketing:

the Sahara FIASCO!

the Avenger.....which I call the LOST squadron due to the long lenght for its arrival.

and there are others.
So I understand that business is a dynamic event but common, even you know that a catalog and promt releases are needed in order to succed.

The secrecy is bad, because even the items beign worked keep up to a project time table. So in all there seems to be a big problem in marketing, distribution and development. And that is fact, so take that to the bank. In the meantime I will take another look at the Dragon website because they offer a more or less month by month list oftheir releases!..hahahaha!

All in good faith my friends!......

take care and

"HOLD THE LINE 'TIL THE LAST MAN!"

Coreyeagle48 · Post by **Coreyeagle48** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:42 pm

This is a very interesting discussion and expresses some very vaild points regarding distrubution and product lineups and waiting periods for products. I think though we also have to look at some of the past history in the consideration of these points.

In my area, the 21st 1/18 aircraft have never sold particularly well at the Walmarts. Neither has the armor that has shown up. Two stores near me got massive amounts of Shermans and never sold them. Now, months later, they are still sitting there, unsold. This was the same for the APC 113's. They never sold. Shopping the other day I saw one sitting somewhere. Another thing I have noticed is that in my area, Walmarts always seem to destroy the items before they are on the shelves. I know some of you have expressed that you do not care what the boxes look like but I personally won't buy Golden Grahams in a beat up box and especially not a $40 model. Then, there also seemed to be a lot of quality problems on the planes and pieces that arrived near me. Parts missing, major paint touchups, bad stuff. Keep in mind I am not talking about minor product problems, these were ones that most people on here would probably say they wouldn't buy, unless for a project.

There is also evidence of products not selling in other areas. Take the famous 4 for Victory Contest. Obiviously there were plenty of 190's that did not sell. My interesting question is, where are they? Around here, we never got a one of them, not one 190 in 1/18. Either Walmart really messed up the distrubution or the 190's didn't sell.

That being said, I think the 1/18 line sells but it also struggles. As Ranger mentioned, some of the product releases have been embarassing. The Sahara and Sky Captain pieces are terrific examples. Some of the regular pieces have been less than ideal, and as a result did not sell well. 21st is also the subject of Walmart's insane distrubution. That has not helped the situation at all.

That being said, I think the delays in the 1/18 line are for several reasons. 21st is working in multiple scales, I am sure this is taking away from some resources in 1/18. Secondly, I have a feeling Walmart might be giving 21st a little "flak" over the 1/18 items. If you think about it logically, Walmart's buisness model is sell as much as possible, cheap and fast. I have a feeling Walmart likes the 1/32 line better because they can stock lots of them, they are cheaper and people will probably impulse buy a smaller item. When shopping for 32x products I have seen several people checking out the 21st 32X products but just plain old ignoring the larger models.

I think 21st has a terrific business model, but perhaps they should tone it down a little bit. For example, really concentrate on the 32x line for Walmart, and issue 1/18 models through e-tailers and maybe two models a year for Walmart. This way the releases would be more limited, and if they released them at opportunity times such as Christmas, the products would sell nicely. It is just a thought, but it seems 21st may be jumping in a little bit over their heads.

I think the next year will be the deciding factor if 1/18 continues in current capacity. I think 21st's real cash cow with Walmart lies in the smaller scales that they seem to be able to release more quickly and easier within the Walmart system.

DocTodd · Post by **DocTodd** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:12 pm

I agree with Coryeagle about WM and the smaller scales. Several stores around here have had some of the 1:18 planes for quite a while--years. While the 32X move fairly quickly and are easier to find shelf space for etc.
I wonder what the sheer numbers of 1:18 scale planes WM commits to per year. Even with spotty ditribution I bet the numbers are fairly high. Probably higher than the e-tailers. I do like to support the e-tailers as much as possible but it is also nice to get the smaller planes for around $15 at WM. I am not a huge fan of WM for several reasons but I do check there for the 21st Century products. I would like to see them elsewhere like Target or possibly TRU.
Todd

75th Ranger · Post by **75th Ranger** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:05 pm

the items from 21st, bbi and others are NOT toys!!!
if we were to conduct a test with many average kids, the in most of the scales would not last a day!!!...
granted some exeptions are always there but the vast majority of kids would destroy the itmes just by playing with them under normal conditions!
For example, play with your track vehicles for a while and you see that the parts strat to tremble!..hahahaha!
the planes in 1/18 are way to big for many kids and also so flimsy that one crash landing to the ground would most likely terminate the airplane. And so on....so why, other than to make money, attempt to sell COLLECTOR items to kids?.....21st, BBI, and the others need to create a simple line that targerts kids and that it is easy to mass produce to sell at walmart and to use the resources from those profits to make another line targeted to collectors.
Walmart will get tiered of itmes sitting on the shleves and also of having to sell items at closeouts. Plus they will soon realize that the toys are mostly collectors items which sell better at different level.
lets see what happens.

"TO THE TRENCHES"

Morian Miner · Post by **Morian Miner** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:02 pm

Goodness, gone a few days and look at all the heated discussion - over a Pioneerwagon of all things!

Me thinks it be built-up frustration from the Avenger

Coreyeagle48 · Post by **Coreyeagle48** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:42 pm

Ranger,

You bring up something else that I forgot to mention and discuss myself. I also believe that 21st and BBI suffer from a bit of an identiy crisis in the market. Do they make their products toys or do they make them for the collector?

I personally see them as both. They are collector pieces because they have great details and are really sold to a limited market. However, they are also in the toy department and in toy stores. So, generally, you are thinking that 21st and BBI are at least trying to target some of their audience as children. Interestingly enough, one of my third graders this year collected the 32x line. We swapped a few planes he had and that he wanted. He told me that he takes care of them all very carefully because they are "cool". So some kids do enjoy these products, parents do buy them and the kids play with them. They may just last pretty long, depending on the care taken when playing with them. During my childhood, I broke and played with a lot of cool toys. Unfortunately, they are toys, and kids will play with them and break them and collectors will keep them in their attics. Go figure.

Unfortunately another sad aspect I have seen is getting to view some of the 1/18 airplanes, and their 32x airplane counterparts. I firmly will tell you the 32x models look better and are better detailed. I personally have felt that with the exception of a few of the big birds, most of them have some critical errors that are not easily overlooked. When taking an art class in college, an art professor told me "The bigger the scale, the more evident are mistakes". This is true for these models. As the models get bigger, the sacrifices 21st and BBI make for functionality and the "toy" in these models is more apparent. In smaller models, mistakes are less visible but good details are powerful. I guess it is all what you like.

If 21st and BBI want to make these pieces truly collectible and for the military collector, a few things need to happen. 1) They shouldn't be sold in the toy department and 2) They need to be made as collector pieces. Take for example the models produced by Corgi and Franklin Mint and Carousel. We do not see these models in Walmart, except for the real small scales. I've only found these larger precision models online, through speciality gift shops and at a rare military toy show or airshow. Look at these models, the details, paint, and quality. Most of these models have very few mistakes, as the prices suggest. They are perfection in the strongest form of military modeling. They are made for the collector, and are priced and made as collector pieces.

My challenge to 21st would be, if you want to lead the market, catch up to these models. Simply put, if you want to be in the market as a leader, why are you selling models where it is obivious someone who didn't care touched it up before they put it in the box. Why are you promising releases that never show as scheduled or are delayed endlessly? Why are you working on new scales when you cannot perfect one scale? Why are you using materials in your products known to stress, go brittle and break?

In my opinion, the one thing 21st has in the market is the size of their product (1/18) and Walmart. But if you look at things that count tremendously, such as quality, detail, even the packaging, they are behind. I really think they should pick a scale, and work to perfect it, not dabble in multiple scales trying new things. That wastes precious time and money that could be devoted to making a serious contribution to the 1/18 or 1/32 line. Two scales would be sufficent.

I'm not against 21st and I am not trying to be offensive, I am trying to be objective. We all have our favorites, and I will admit that 21st 32X airplanes are some of my favorites. I am simply saying that they should take the time and effort to perfect their products and bring them to the level of detail, quality and construction of their competitors. That, as good and supportive fans, is what we should be getting as the promise from this company.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:52 pm

Very well said, I agree with everything

flpickupman · Post by **flpickupman** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:50 am

The thing I like about 21C's 1/18 lineup is the relative affordability of their current releases. Having only been in this hobby for about a year now, there are obviously pieces that I am no longer able to locate in a Walmart or at an online retailer. These have usually come at a premuim on Ebay. If 1/18 had been priced like that at Walmart, I never would have gone past 1/32.

The point is this; if 21C has to sacrifice a little detail to keep the items at a reasonable price point, I'm cool with that. If I want mega super duper detailed, I'll build it myself.

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:17 am

I agree, to a small degree with what is being discussed.

On accuracy: Almost every toy we like, no matter what the maker and what the scale, has errors. Some are accidental in the mold process and some are deliberate to prevent other manufactuer from making an exact copy of their toy to act as a signature, and some are just errors.

21C suffers from accuracy errors dealing with scale. Some of the "bolt counters" don't like 21C due to size problems, almost all are over or under scale for the "bolt counter". The bigger the scale, the more evident the error. Our 21C 1/6 are close to the worst, oversized windshields on Humvees, tiny barrels on the Stuart, the Bradley being underscale and even my beloved White Scout Car is underscaled.

Does that stop us from buying them? NO. Why, price, sturdy product and most errors can be ignored or corrected. Example, I just bought an "aftermarket" 37mm barrel for my remaining Stuart. The barrel is metal, the true scale and even has rifleing inside the barrel. With this hobby you can go nuts for accuracy.

That brings me to the second point. Scale. To limit production to two scales, 1/32 and 1/18, would have alot of us bigger scale guys leave 21C, and there is more than a few on this board that might not be into 1/6, "full bore" like me and Ranger, but there are guys, not "in the closet", but close, that have a few 1/6 special pieces. Can anyone resist a 1/6 Cc if the price was right?.....just an AWESOME piece. I can see 21C making more and more planes in 1/32. I've been looking at 1/32 planes in Wallyworld and I like what I see. The 1/18 birds are sure super neat, but space consuming.....I know that might sound funny from a 1/6 guy but wingspans hurt on space. I won't even go into the idea of scale down a piece from 1/6 to 1/18 (Struart, WSC), we have beaten that idea to death.

I think this a moot point anyhow with 21C now talking about going full speed into 1/144 planes. They may be on the downside of 1/6 AND 1/18 and they could end up with 1/32 beng "the big guys" in 21C.

I, personally am very happy with 21C. Sure, I'd like more......more American or even just more Allied 1/18 (or 1/6) pieces. I like the German stuff also and will buy and enjoy whatever 21C makes for us. "For Us" is the key. Collectors.....The average Wally toy shopper sees 21C and thinks "a tank is a tank". Just the right thing for Junior to play with for a while. Some "Juniors" with break their tank quickly, but some will like what they see, and start collecting. That's the kid we want. I always suffered with sticky fingers all over my 1/1 vehicles at shows because I wanted those kids to grow up liking those vehicles just like I grew up....of course, those stone wheels on the warcarts were a hazard to kids in my days..

I always liked the elephants too.

TTT

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:03 am

Frankly most of the above comments and assumptions about the objectives, goals, and so fourth are all wrong.

I think the mission of 21st is very clear. They make highly detailed military toy collectables. As such they distribute these products through WalMart with prices that are often set by the reatiler. (The retailer stockes these iems in the toy department because that is how they are marketed and priced).

Because the work is so good, because the subjects are accurate to history, Some diehard fans of military stuff collect these items! (you and I fall into this group which makes up a important smaller- vocal percentage).

I collect all kinds of military stuff so I am no stranger to the above mentioned "competition" The simple truth of it all is this.

As an example and we will just focus on large airplanes for the moment- Where will else would you buy a 1:18 scale Starfighter, Me-109E, Bf-109G-6, Spitfire, FW-190D9, P-40 Warhawk, MiG-15, Avenger, P-47 bubbletop, P-47 razorback... and so on and so on, and so on. (before anyone wants to jump in saying... I have been waiting for the avenger still....blah blah blah. When will we ever see the MiG-15... blah blah Save your breath beacuse you won't want me to have to say I told you so in the next few weeks!

My point is this. How many of these items do we all have in our collections? Who makes the above specificly mentioned products? NOT corgi, NOT dragon, NOT franklin mint, NOT carousel!.... If any of these companies did- these they would easily cost twice as much! I would say we are all very lucky to have 21st around. Not that you have to listen to me, you can have your own opinion but let me also sign off with this friendly advise.

21st reads these posts, they are interested to know what you think. Consier the fact that many hard working people at 21st Century Toys spend many hours building these products for us. For some staff they are doing something they love to do. You have to know that often it is the case that they feel proud of thier work. I would recommend that we take a moment to realize this in our posts.

As the vocal loyal fans here how do we want to be regarded? Are we being the thought of as a group to listen to or a group to ignore?

Just another point of view for you to chew on. Meanwhile I am going back to admire my collection of 60+ 1:18 scale 21st airplanes... THANK YOU ROY, AND 21ST CENTURY TOYS FOR YOUR EFFORTS, YOU DO A GREAT JOB. KEEP IT UP!

Small Scale Military Headquarters

JUNE 10th.....

MM