JUNE 10th.....

[aferguson]

How do you know they can't produce a number of different variants? I see this as a sign that they surely plan to if they did such an "obscure" one. You may just be wrong on this first assumption.

My assumptions are based on past history and common sense. WM is not going to stock a huge variety of different 1/18 scale items. This we have seen and this we know. The managers don't like the big boxes taking up shelf space and even aircraft can be slow movers, let alone armour (just scan the WM recon sticky to see what is still sitting on shelves in some WM stores). So they simply won't be able to produce a wide variety of items, at least in the short term (ie next couple of years).

To not have armor for as long as we have and then greet the first news of any with a whine just baffles me. They don't owe us armor, especially not big expensive new tanks, etc...they just don't. Again, ask Mike why bbi hasn't released some "super-sexy" new 1:18 armor. AT? Dragon? If you want a T-34, a Panzer III or various other tanks, then you do need to leave XD b/c I don't see it happening anytime soon. Let's try to stay realistic. Expectation is disappointment's birth child.

It is precisely because we have not had new armour for as long as we have that i am voicing my discent (call it whining if you must). After all this long waiting and this is what we get?? I suspect there will be more hanomag variants on the near horizon and more variants of other vehicles too. But there won't be alot of new vehicles, just a few and for this bridgle layer to be one of them, when it could have been something else far more interesting/important.....that is my gripe.

Why are you worried about "most WM buyers"? We will know the difference - and all the other people who collect these for more than just toys. Are you worried about the State of the Comany? We already agree this was not the most expensive endeavor - like a new tank would be. Would "most WM buyers" in your mind know the difference between a Panzer IV and a Panzer III? Let's not worry about the infamous "WM buyer" when discussing German WWII armor...

An artillery gun (which we all want) is super sexy? What about if armor is a weak seller you don't dump tons of cash into a new tanks which won't sell anyway. Ask Mike about why there has been no bbi armor since the Sherman 2 years ago (Super Humvee, but trucks don't count. )

I am very worried about most WM buyers. I would guess that 75% of 21c sales come from WM buyers. So if they don't buy then new stuff doesn't get built and that is the simple fact of the matter. We all should be concerned about the typical WM buyer, because they are the life blood of this hobby right now. And a big artilery piece, which just looks cool, will be snapped up by a typical WM buyer long before a minor variation of the same halftrack they saw last year (if they even notice the variation at all).

Seems today's news is a whole new product line in one of the smaller scales. Happy now? What is BIG news to some, is "so what?" to me. I know CW4USARMY would have rather they announced a 1:18 262 - I couldn't care less.

Releases in other scales and of unrelated products was expected. I have no feelings about it either way. That is simply 21c trying to expand their business. Good for them. I make no comments about it because i have no interest in it. XD i do have an interest in and that's why i comment on it. And if i don't like the direction i see it going i will say so. They need feedback, both positive and negative. An attitude of "golly gee whatever you want to make is just fine by me 21c" is not the correct one. Constructive feedback, both positive and negative is far more useful to them and in the long run, to us.

One of the functions of these forums is for people to express their viewpoints, which is what i have done. It was not set up as a back patting forum for 21c.

You're right Digger, they don't owe us anything.....unless of course they're going to promise and promise and hype and hype, then, well they sorta do. And if they do decide to make a new piece of 1/18 armour i would like it to be something far more interesting and i'm going to tell them so.

[jeffrowse]

There's a new anouncement up today about the new warbirds C21 are releasing... in 1/144th scale
Unfortunately we have to wait a couple of weeks before we find out what they are. What I'd like to know is, what exactly makes a plane a "warbird"?

I guessed the two new scales would probably be 1/72 and 1/144, with an outside chance that it might be 1/48 and 1/72.

Just wished I'd got it totally wrong instead...

I've no real interest in WWII armor and can't see an easy way I could use the "new" Hano as a donor/victim for a scratchbuild any easier than the older version - that said, at least they've done something new(ish) so it proves they're still thinking of us...

Hey ho, here's to the next two months... maybe I'll be getting some new toys when I visit Uncle Sam in September after all - just have to wait and see (but I'm not holding my breath in antici --- pation!)



Considering a diet for a 1/18th F4!

[Threetoughtrucks]

Wow, 75th R, bet you feel better now

I mostly agree with you, The lack of new vehicles sent me to 1/6, and I'm going like gangbusters in 1/6, vehicles and figures. It seems that almost every month new vehicles and artillery come out. There are times when I want them to pull back and slow new releases, but this is from four or five manufacturers and not just one, our 21C.

But, I'm also in 1/18 for any new vehicles, any at all. I like the new piece, obscure yet beside the bridge pieces, it has the 2.8cm gun. Neat all by itself.

I think the future is bright for 21C, if they dopn't get discouraged and move into another scale or type (planes only for insistance).

That said, and considering the fact that I spent tme Saturday at my new favorite WM, which went from nothing to a decent stock of 21C stuff and I was looking at a 1/32 21C Zero, and the 1/32 variants to their basic pieces. I was tempted , but I resisted.

And to Aferg, any ground vehicle is good news, not juist tanks. Remember, that in any dio, even a real life situation, the number of tanks are far less than soft skins, of all types.

And finally, to JJames, I 100% agree, the M3 Half-track has always knocked my socks off. Wh at a great vehicle.

TTT

[digger]

My assumptions are based on past history and common sense. WM is not going to stock a huge variety of different 1/18 scale items. This we have seen and this we know. The managers don't like the big boxes taking up shelf space and even aircraft can be slow movers, let alone armour (just scan the WM recon sticky to see what is still sitting on shelves in some WM stores). So they simply won't be able to produce a wide variety of items, at least in the short term (ie next couple of years).

Wanna bet?

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism - I am not suggesting a suppresion of dissent. I am sorry it came out like that. I just think you are wrong on a few of your assumptions, and that people have to keep things in perspective. Unless they announced a T-34 or the like I guess people were bound to be upset. I'm just saying that I can't see it happening - just accept it.

They said the KT was slated for Spring 07, so how are we surprised we didn't see that? And would you have rather the announcement have been a Panzer IV with side skirts was finally on the way? I don't think so. Is that the "hype" you are talking about? What new armor hype has there been that they have not lived up to? None, b/c there has been no new armor. The WC-51 came out of nowhere - no hype. RC tanks - no hype, just presto. I'm not too into AC so I don't let those announcements get to me. IMO, any armor is a gift. NOBODY ELSE MAKES IT!! Dissent if you wish, but you are better off going to another scale if you expect a deluge of heavy tanks. Just not happening unless another company steps up.

[aferguson]

lol.....you are my foil Digger.

I wasnt' expecting a Leopold railway gun in 1/18 for the big announcement.

But when you read phrases like 'tidal wave...' and 'out of the gate swinging..' that really creates the expectation of something pretty juicy. A pak 40 armed hanomag would have qualified. A bridge laying *yawn* hanomag doesnt' cut it in my books.

I'm well aware that nobody else is making 1/18 armour......painfully aware. It there were lots of it around i wouldn't care about the bridglaying hanomag one way or the other. But given that there are precious few releases it would be nice if the new stuff that is released was a little more exciting.

My dissention continues...

[vulgarvulture]

1:144 scale? Eh, no. I totally dig 1:18 and will be sticking with that, thank you.

My litmus test: would I buy a 1:144 F-4?............No.

I understand 21st's need to expand, but I'll leave this scale to others.

[STUKA]

I disagree - this isnt a ME 262 or anything but they are stepping up to the plate with something a little more obscure - now it had been just another repaint I'd be a little pissed - but this is awesome - It can only mean that the next item will be better -
come on guys keep applauding everything 21st century makes -

[Threetoughtrucks]

Soooooo, when did you say 21C's Leopold railway gun is to be released in 1/18??? You are da man Aferg.

Last year I was given a couple of small AC given as freebees at last year's ToyFair. An Apache and a Corsair. Both are made by Maisto and I'm guessing they are 1/72, or smaller. Comparing them side side with my 1/18 AH-64 and the smaller one is just pathetic. Same freebee situation with the a couple of CanDo 1/144 tanks. The tanks are cute but against our 1/18, Wow, but zero wow factor for the 1/144 tanks.

If we are up the creek with 1/18 vehicles (armor or soft-skin), I will be sorry to say goodbye to 21C. My feet are firmy in another class now (1/6) and if 21C puts major effort into 1/144, my butt will follow my feet

And my feet don't involve 1/6 21C figures, some of the recent releases of 1/6 figures with their vehicles are moronic looking with stupid toothy grins and super shiny boots.. Some of these guys are scary, not freightening, crazy scary..

I don't say that as a threat, who am I to threaten, one fat old man living on an Island in a house filled with toys, who spends his days fighting overdevelpment, the FAA and NASCAR, waiting to see what the UPSMan will bring and playing with his toys and his computer, his grandcrumsnatcher, dogs and a really old cat.......not in any particular order of importance.

TTT

[CW4USARMY]

Digger,

Why would I want 21st to come out with an Me-262? Admiral already is! My point about something completely new was already well stated by Aferg. Seriously, you need to slow down and understand the posters comments before rushing to respond, and remember, just becasue it is your perspective about retailers and manufacturers doesnt make it the right persepective

[digger]

Perhaps you should "slow down" and realize I was indirectly making the point that you were somehow impressed with the announcement of a plane that was already announced.

Don't get me wrong, I give AT all the credit in the world for their fast turnaround of AC (and do expect to see their's before 21st), but announcement of intent is just that - and we already had one from 21st months prior. But I know, an announcement from AT is great and from 21st stinks....

[jhogan]

I'm Happy to see any new announcements and releases from 21C. TKO and 21C should not be disappointed if the reaction to new announments is mixed. It has been about three years since the announcment of the Avenger and we are still waiting. We have also heard about the new F-86 and Mig-15 but with no delivery date. Based on the delivery of the Avenger, I doubt we'll see the Korean fighters this year. Now we have new armor without delivery dates.

There has been talk about the A10 and Me262 for years but 21C has not given a committment to offer them and that is fine. We can all speculate and dream.

BBi, on the other hand, announced the P-51 and Corsair and I think I had mine in about two months. I suggest 21C not announce a new offering until a firm delivery date is known. If delivery is one year in the future, so be it, as long as the delivery date is met.

[CW4USARMY]

Perhaps you should "slow down" and realize I was indirectly making the point that you were somehow impressed with the announcement of a plane that was already announced.

Don't get me wrong, I give AT all the credit in the world for their fast turnaround of AC (and do expect to see their's before 21st), but announcement of intent is just that - and we already had one from 21st months prior. But I know, an announcement from AT is great and from 21st stinks....

Dude!, The major difference is that Admiral has shown the molded plastic with their announcements and deliver as promised or at least explain their situation (I know, not a lot of experience yet but looks promising). Definitely not the same as 21st announcing something and still waiting three years later. Anyway, I buy everything 21st produces in 1:18 scale but that doesnt mean I have to blindly be happy with the all the let downs
of the consistent false hype.

OK, enough of that, back to the real world

[billgiff]

Can we all just get along?????????????

[CW4USARMY]

Can we all just get along?????????????

billgiff, digger and I have been around here for a long time. We enjoy a good debate/discussion. We all do get along, just different opinions sometimes

[kevrut]

Exactly, CW4.

[digger]

digger and I have been around here for a long time. We enjoy a good debate/discussion. We all do get along, just different opinions sometimes

This is true - guys on this board have been putting up with me for some time...I often wonder how frankly..

[toyktdlgh]

Let’s not forget that AT hasn’t been around long and hasn’t made that much yet. I'm sure as time goes on they to will produce something that makes us all wonder what they were thinking. I bet they even miss a deadline or two. That’s just life. I think for the hype it would have been nice to see something better but I was still excited to see the Hanamog.

[scbvideoboy]

I'm Happy to see any new announcements and releases from 21C. TKO and 21C should not be disappointed if the reaction to new announments is mixed. It has been about three years since the announcment of the Avenger and we are still waiting. We have also heard about the new F-86 and Mig-15 but with no delivery date. Based on the delivery of the Avenger, I doubt we'll see the Korean fighters this year. Now we have new armor without delivery dates.

There has been talk about the A10 and Me262 for years but 21C has not given a committment to offer them and that is fine. We can all speculate and dream.

BBi, on the other hand, announced the P-51 and Corsair and I think I had mine in about two months. I suggest 21C not announce a new offering until a firm delivery date is known. If delivery is one year in the future, so be it, as long as the delivery date is met.

I believe it took less time for Ford to engineer the new Mustang GT?

Perhaps we are overlooking the political side of doing business in China. I would imagine there is lots of official red tape and underground tactics to get the ball rolling.

My point has always been when 21C locks the container and watches the cargo ship leave the port, then start the promotion as we have approx 8 weeks before it hits customs in Los Angeles.

DH

[flpickupman]

My point has always been when 21C locks the container and watches the cargo ship leave the port, then start the promotion as we have approx 8 weeks before it hits customs in Los Angeles.

DH

Then the Walmart wait.

For example, 2 Stukas and 2 Corsairs at just arrived at only one of my 4 Walmarts.

[Threetoughtrucks]

JasonN:

I fail to understand your insistance that 21C has not produced an Amtrak so the Marines have nothing to travel in. 21C may not have an Amtrak or Higgins boat but 21C has a small ton of vehicles for Marines. Almost all the current 1/18 armor, half-track, jeeps, motorcycles and the two trucks (3/4 and 1 1/2 tons) are vehicles used by the Marines in WW2.

If you want to be a rivit counter, just paint those vehicles with "Marine" colors. The dirtier the better. There is an old saying about Marine equipment in WW2 and the Korean War the went something like "If it's old, beat up, leaks oil then it's a Marine". That was not a dig, it was a coment to say that the Marines "made due" with everything they had.

TTT

[digger]

Jason, I would LOVE an Amtrac. A Higgins even more, but without getting too opinionated, some things to consider:

1) Exclusives still need a run of something like a few thousand, not sure. And there has been no exclusive that is a totally new mold - all 1:18 exclusives have been repaints: Corsair, F18, F16, P-51, SS figs...

2) ETO is three times more popular than PTO. German stuff is 3 times more popular than US. Notice that it took Dragon Armor about 100 1/72 pieces before they released even ONE Sherman?

3) If an Amtrac is can't miss how come bbi didn't make one? Who says it would be cheap to produce? How do we know what it would cost?

4) My Marines walk, as many Marines did a lot of. They have a Sherman by their side, as many Marines did.

5) Just because you're not that into figures doesn't mean you deserve an Amtrac. I and many others are VERY into figures. They are one of 3 things that are the foundation for this forum. The Marines sold pretty well seeing as how they ran them off so many times. All without an Amtrac! And they made Japanese figs to boot - if anyone said there would be IJA figs a few years ago they'd be called crazy. Enemies are important to some of us. In the PTO genre, arguably more important than even one vehicle.

Again, I would LOVE an Amtrac and would buy multiples as I always do (not just say I would), but I think your insistance that the companies make decisions with intent to piss us off just can't be the case. We have to assume they are business decisions. I agree with the general sentiment that companies are underestimating the sales potential of some good armor pieces, but they are not ignoring them just to spite us.

[tko211]

Many things have happend in the military toy industry the last 3 years. Today's market is very different right down to the buyers who place orders for the product.

I thought I might chime in with some info that might help put some concerns to rest...

Everyone has noticed that the newer projects have not been given an ETA on delivery. This is by design. 21st wants to be a lot closer on these estimations than in years prior. There are many instances along the course of a project where delays and set backs could occur. Many of which are out side of 21st's control. All they can do is continue to push forward as they happen.

I would like to also point out that in this last year the majority of new products that were released were only announced a few months prior to actual release. The TRU merril's set, OMG figures, Japanese figures, Marine figures, Beep vehicle, P-51 mustang, 32x zeros and macchi's all are prime examples.

It is a fact that both the MiG-15 & F-86 Sabre are deep in production. Recently AREA-21 has shown production paint samples of the MiG-15 pilot. The airplnes themselves already have paint masters in HK for full production. (These projects are NOT 1-2 years from production) From my experience these kinds of projetcs are only a few months away. If I would have to bet I would bet heavily on a 2006 release!

After closer inspection of the new Hanomag photos you will notice that the product is molded in plastic. This is not a prototype. which means the new Hanomag is also very deep in production to see it in this state. Again I would bet heavily on a release in a few months.

As one person put it eariler... They would rather not see pictures or hype until products are more final. 21st is meeting that request. You only knew about the Hanomag 4 days ago. I learned that it has been in development for the better part of 8 months already.

As for the Avenger- (I never get sick of this topic)... Watch for the center ad on the 21st website. When the Mustangs come down Avengers go up! That will be the signal that they are on the water. Those mustang ads can't run forever!

[tko211]

P.S. ETO ALWAYS outsells the PTO! I can't explain why but it just does. Look at the model kits, other military collectables, historic aviation magazine, video games and so on.

Bring on the Avenger! I also love my flying undertaker PTO P-51. It is nice to have those pieces.