BBI announces f-18c

[NWarty]

The 6th repaint of this thing (Golden Dragons, Canadian, Australian, Jolly Rogers, Blue Angels). Tooling paid for long ago. 200%+ markup. Sh**ty paintscheme. No corrections made to original model errors sans landing gear (antennas and exhaust nozzles).

Looks like a great buy to me!

Let's quit pussy-footing around the price issue. Easy friggin' explanation folks. JSI sold the Tomcat at $229 (In which I thought was pretty dog-gone good considering the size of the SpotCat). Bbi sees this and all the ebay malarkey, raises prices to what they think the market will bear. Psst...Oh hey, by the way, the Tomcat was new tooling. Who'd a thunk???? It's not rocket science. If you can't see it for what it is, you're absolutely delusional.

And when has BBi EVER listened to constructive criticism Corey? Show me here with linked posts. I'm the facebook BBi price-hater that blasted them about the price increases to which they replied "we'll look into our pricing scheme" canned public relations response. I fly a lot of R/C stuff and if manufacturers had the PR departments that BBi does, they get ripped to absolute shreads. Do a search at rcgroups.com and look at the graveyards of manufacturers that thought their customer base was a bunch of drooling hobby zombies. Bbi is a large company, they could give a rats arse about us.

I have a Golden Dragon Hornet, don't need another and I don't feel the need to "support" Bbi in the hopes they churn out a repaint/new tooling of my aviation unicorn. The SBD...sure I might buy an S2 with a Midway scheme, but I think that price is fair considering it's a new tooling. This thing...meh

[snake]

So I guess you won't be getting one, NWarty.

That is up to you, and the sticking point of this entire thread.

And comments like anyone who supports this must be " delusional", is part of the reason this thread has gone south, in a big way.

" Let's quit pussy-footing around the price issue. Easy friggin' explanation folks. JSI sold the Tomcat at $229 (In which I thought was pretty dog-gone good considering the size of the SpotCat). Bbi sees this and all the ebay malarkey, raises prices to what they think the market will bear. Psst...Oh hey, by the way, the Tomcat was new tooling. Who'd a thunk???? It's not rocket science. If you can't see it for what it is, you're absolutely delusional. "

Fine, you don't like it. Don't buy it!

Don't call me "delusional" because I will be making this purchase. It is insulting, and yet again, shows the vindictive, negativity that is posted here.

I couldn't care less about your opinion on this, especially given the tone you try to make your point.

By insulting people who want to buy one of these.

This is what this forum has become. A sea of negativity, and members trading insults.

[NWarty]

No Snake, I never said that you or others were delusional for buying the thing. I said that I thought it was delusional that folks were trying to justify the outrageous price hike; claiming a myriad of reasons ranging from "It's the Oil! Chinese labor Costs more! Gas, that's expense too! That Damned Sasquatch! The Loch Ness monster sunk the transport ship! Potato!"

Except the "JSI did it and look at ebay" reason. And my favorite one that gets tossed around here by various members regarding price: "You should be happy that you have any 1:18 at all from Manufacturer X".

[tmanthegreat]

Good points on the negativity, Snake.

Nwarty does bring up a good question - how does one justify the price increase of the BBI Hornet then?

I don't think its strictly price-gouging as prices in other lines for similar collectables have also gone up quite a bit in recent years, even with re-released toolings. NO ONE has brought that up yet.

Look at Unimax and their Forces of Valor line. What was a $30-$40 FOV tank in 2004 now retails for close to $70-$80, which is double the price. For example, the upcoming re-release of the FOV M-26 Pershing, using the same tooling from the initial 2004 release, costs nearly twice as much. The Pershing sold for about about $35-$40 in 2004 and now is about $74 at list price. On top of that, any new tooling FOV tanks have shown a general trend of less weathering, fewer accessories, and fewer working features than their older counterparts, for greater cost.

Even non military lines like Star Wars have seen dramatic price increases. Figures that once retailed for $5-$6 now approaching $10; vehicles that were under $20 now approach $30, even with toolings that are over a decade old. Don't get me started with GI Joe...

My point, again, is to raise the question of why these items are now costing so much and to also point out that the price increases are a general trend in both military and non-military collectables. I'm not saying the price for an item is justified or not, but the increases across the board do reflect something is going on other than one company trying to take advantage of buyers.

[parrish333]

1) BBI is a company who just wants to make money; 1/18 military is one way they sometimes do that;
2) They don't have much serious competition right now like back in the day fighting against 21C and Admiral;
3) This is a much more limited release than the original mass-retail;
4) Labor & materials costs have increased some;
5) So yes, of course prices are higher than if #2 or #3 or #4 weren't true.
6) If enough people don't buy it, they'll either leave 1/18 again for awhile, or lower their prices/improve the product.
7) If enough people do buy it, they don't care how many people post saying it's too much or too inaccurate. Most every other company operates essentially the same.

I'm guessing that sales of their re-released F-16 and MH-60 did ok, and that's why they are re-releasing the F-18 in a similar pricing scheme. So this will probably do ok as well. Vote with your wallet and let supply-and-demand economics do the rest.

[Jolly Roger]

Small manufacturing run = higher prices
Higher cost of Petroleum = higher prices on materials
Higher cost of Gas = higher price on shipping items out of CN
Higher inflation of the dollar = higher price on commodity.
Higher pay to Chinese workers = higher cost of production

This has nothing to do with BBI's ethics, and everything to do with the World economy.
Don't like it, vote in political elections.

Don't get me wrong, it's nauseating to think of paying for something a 160A$, that six years ago I bough for 60$. It's just the Beast we know as Money.

[King O' Fools]

The following is an excerpt from a 2010 NYT article titled "As China’s Wages Rise, Export Prices Could Follow":

The salaries of factory workers in China are still low compared to those in the United States and Europe: the hourly wage in southern China is only about 75 cents an hour. [...] And last Thursday, Beijing announced that it would raise the city’s minimum monthly wage by 20 percent, to 960 renminbi, or about $140. Many other cities are expected to follow suit.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/busin ... wages.html

Yep. That's 75 cents/hour in 2010.

Get your facts straight, people. Or at least quit blaming 'greedy' Chinese factory workers. Yes, the increase in labor costs has impacted export prices, but the impact relative to overall production costs is minimal. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to paint a distorted view of reality.

PS. By my reckoning this will be the 7th repaint of this model, since they also released a Red Devils version.

[C00per]

Did anybody call chinese factory workers "greedy" here? Or even "blame" them for anything? All I have read from some members were reasons or justifications why prices have gone up and increased labor costs in china is certainly one of many reasons. 75cents an hour is certainly a low number but if you put it in relative terms it was an increase of 20 percent. For me, I find more reasons for price increases than for stable prices.

BTW: I have not seen one company that released a repaint for less than the first version so I do not get the argument that a 2nd, 3rd or whatever release should cost the same or (if those arguments I read a thought through) even less because costs of tooling etc. were calculated into the price of the first release.

I guess nobody here has insight into bbi´s balance sheet or knows details about their cost structure but personally I find many factors that justify a general price hike in this model and so I am far from thinking that bbi is ripping me off. Of course we can discuss all day long if 140 US-$ or 200 US-$ are justified but that leads us nowhere because we do not have enough inside information about bbi´s setup. But I am honestly irritated by all that comments that suggest that those old prices we saw in 2004 should still be valid. For me it is obvious that those times are long gone. And since I like the paint scheme and since I am willing to accept some (in my eyes) minor flaws I will vote with my wallet as all of us will do. And I will buy this model. BTW: in europe it will cost about 230 US-$.

For those who think bbi is a greedy company that will make millions of US-$ from this release by setting ridiculous prices on the model it may be a good idea to buy stocks from companies like bbi because then you will not only be right on the issue but you can also profit from those of us who paid too much for the hornet. Heck, if you guys are right with your theories those companies will make so much money that their stocks must gain in value and with all those profits you can buy models with the "right" price tag like the Dauntless and laugh at all the rest. Those who paid big bucks for the hornet are hopefully satisfied with what they got, bbi will make money and release even more, the critics profit by buying stocks of greedy bbi and buy models from other manufacturers. Everybody will get what he wants: wouldn´t that be a great win-win situation?

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

More later, but if I recall correctly, the Blue Angels Hornet, Red Devils, Marauders were all BADCAT exclusives and BADCAT commissioned BBI to do them. So we don't know the true market value of those aircraft because BADCAT was the only one selling them at the time.

Corey

[King O' Fools]

BTW: I have not seen one company that released a repaint for less than the first version so I do not get the argument that a 2nd, 3rd or whatever release should cost the same or (if those arguments I read a thought through) even less because costs of tooling etc. were calculated into the price of the first release.

To put things in perspective, no one is saying the F-18, being a repaint, should cost the same or less than the first release. What some people are saying is that, as things stand now, this 200% price increase cannot be explained by the need to recoup the initial investment that went into developing this product, so that leaves production/manufacturing, shipping, marketing costs and inflation to account for that 200% price hike. Beisdes, of course, the profit margin.

In view of all this, a 20% increase in labor costs is negligible IMO, considering the average wage for factory workers in China, People's Republic of.

[King O' Fools]

7) If enough people do buy it, they don't care how many people post saying it's too much or too inaccurate. Most every other company operates essentially the same.

Yep. And the 'junkie' mindset probably explains why the prices have been going up significantly ever since the JSI 'Spotcat' hit the shelves, as manufacturers have realized they have a captive market in 1/18 scale collectors that will gladly gobble up whatever it is they get out the factory door.

BBI — jacking up prices an Andrew Jackson at a time.

[gouchy]

Here's what I'm thinking with regards to costs increase,

Wages. Its not just the tens or hundreds of factory workers that are being paid more. You have to include the supervisors, admin support staff, managers, executives & directors. Their wage increases goes up accordingly and exponentially. You all know how suits can be greedy beyond belief, one ceo or director's wage rise may just be more than the entire lowest rung of employees combined. Then also consider performance bonuses and shareholders cut if the company is set up that way. So saying each factory worker gets $5 more is not the entire picture.

Everything costs more and its worldwide. That includes rental, utilities, food, petroleum, raw materials, packaging, computers & software, heck even a roll of toilet paper. Every little thing adds up to a company's expenses. Hmm, I'm even sure it costs more to pay off under-table money to any person with invested interests

What about middlemen like importers, distributors, retailers, e-tailers? They all need to take a cut too. Its a different ball game than the Walmart big retailer days.

Licensing fees? Maybe Boeing asked for a lot more? Is the licence still valid or its possible that the licence has expired and Boeing has no idea this F-18 is being done.

China has been supplying stuff at very low prices for a long time, they're just taking the opportunity to make more money now. If others can make profits (Hasbro?) off low costs toys, why not help themselves? Kinda like making up for lost time.

The new prices of 1/18 sucks and there's no denying it. It just sucks so much more for those who have experienced the good old days. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and have the right to post as such here. I hope we (whichever side you are on) can refrain from taking it too far as it does nobody any good and definitely reflects badly of SSHQ.

As for this bbi bird, if you wanna call it a turkey turd, its all good. If you wanna call this a golden goose, its all good too.

Lets agree to disagree and accept and respect all opinions.

Wake me if there's a group hug or a lynch mob

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

The truth is, like it or not, costs have gone up about double for everything in recent years. Even for strange items like school textbooks. We are in the middle of picking and ordering new Social Studies textbooks for our grade level in our school and were shocked to find the new books cost about twice as much as the old books we were using. Same publisher, same style of book, etc. This trend is also happening with groceries, fuel, etc. It is an unfortunate trend in the world markets. Just the way it is happening and toys are no exception. Recently bought a Lego set as a birthday gift for a nephew and was shocked at what those cost these days for the amount of pieces in a set. It surely does seem that your dollars stretch less and less these days.

Back to the Hornet, it really doesn't matter why the costs have gone up. But the comments that BBI is purposely trying to price gouge is just absurd. I think this aircraft is priced in line with what they believe is current market value. I say this because it is priced competitvely with the F-16 and the Blackhawk just released. And even though the tooling may be paid for, BBI still has to pay a factory, make the planes, package them, etc. I'm sure as in the F-16 some minor changes might be made to the mold, but it is probably cheaper and more cost effective to do that than make an entirely new mold. And this is a mold and a model people have bought and been generally pleased with, so they probably feel they do not need to make major changes. While the F-18 mold does have its problems, I will say it is a durable mold and stands up to handling well. That is something many 1/18 models did not do.

It is amusing how some folks now feel the 1/18 Tomcat is now awesome. That certainly wasn't the sentiment when it was released. The exact same folks chewed out JSI over the spotty paint and the weak landing gear as well as all the broken parts in the box. Very interesting. Although a nice model when it was right, the JSI Tomcat was one of the poorest examples of QC on a 1/18 model ever produced. I can say except for very minor fit issues or paint blemish, any BBI product I have gotten has been excellent quality. I have no issues buying from them because I know I will be getting a good product.

What exactly is wrong with the paint scheme on this Hornet? I'd really like to know. They picked a scheme used in Enduring Freedom and a scheme that is current for that squadron. The pictures we have seen seem to be a quickly done paint master to show what it will look like. I'm sure the F-18 will look as good as the F-16. BBI usually does not do a shoddy paint job on its models.

My biggest concern in this thread is that every time a BBI product is released. There seems to be a bunch of haters that come out of the woods to comment. Yet many of these haters are the same ones commenting on the BBI Facebook page they want new products. People can't have it both ways, and to do so is being a hypocrite. I can find thread after thread here of posts of people hating BBI, their prices or something. Do people think BBI took 21st out of business? Do people think there is some 1/18 conspiracy involving BBI? I'm just curous as to why there is so much hatred and disgust with this company. I would love to be enlightened by someone in the know, because I do not get it.

A final point, there was a time many years ago when a BBI rep did in fact visit this board and was commenting to us and taking suggestions. Those of us old timers remember "Mike" and his posts. "Mike" had to stop coming here because people literially would not shut up with stupid suggestions, complaints and never ending wishlists....then they would get mad when he couldn't respond. People also wanted information that was basically properitary to BBI that he would never have been able to share. Some of the antics on this board drove him away and who knows, maybe he could have announced the Hornet here had that not occured.

It is a hard thing to accept for some, but there is an issue on this board of being overly negative and offensive. Some of the posts in this thread clearly display that behavior. Sadly, I would have thought we would have grown past this now but I guess not.

Corey

[Mitch]

so i have two F-18's already and with space being at a premium definately will not be buying anything I already have...that being said it's good that new collectors will get a chance to obtain a desirable bird...
Keep the new releases coming, all-be-it slow and I will continue to buy - and yes in this economy i expect to pay more.

[NWarty]

Greetings:

The truth is, like it or not, costs have gone up about double for everything in recent years. Even for strange items like school textbooks. We are in the middle of picking and ordering new Social Studies textbooks for our grade level in our school and were shocked to find the new books cost about twice as much as the old books we were using. Same publisher, same style of book, etc. This trend is also happening with groceries, fuel, etc. It is an unfortunate trend in the world markets. Just the way it is happening and toys are no exception. Recently bought a Lego set as a birthday gift for a nephew and was shocked at what those cost these days for the amount of pieces in a set. It surely does seem that your dollars stretch less and less these days.

I get it, my wife is a high school english teacher.

Back to the Hornet, it really doesn't matter why the costs have gone up. But the comments that BBI is purposely trying to price gouge is just absurd. I think this aircraft is priced in line with what they believe is current market value. I say this because it is priced competitvely with the F-16 and the Blackhawk just released. And even though the tooling may be paid for, BBI still has to pay a factory, make the planes, package them, etc. I'm sure as in the F-16 some minor changes might be made to the mold, but it is probably cheaper and more cost effective to do that than make an entirely new mold. And this is a mold and a model people have bought and been generally pleased with, so they probably feel they do not need to make major changes. While the F-18 mold does have its problems, I will say it is a durable mold and stands up to handling well. That is something many 1/18 models did not do.

That still doesn't explain a 200%+ price increase.

It is amusing how some folks now feel the 1/18 Tomcat is now awesome. That certainly wasn't the sentiment when it was released. The exact same folks chewed out JSI over the spotty paint and the weak landing gear as well as all the broken parts in the box. Very interesting. Although a nice model when it was right, the JSI Tomcat was one of the poorest examples of QC on a 1/18 model ever produced. I can say except for very minor fit issues or paint blemish, any BBI product I have gotten has been excellent quality. I have no issues buying from them because I know I will be getting a good product.

Repainted the completely piss-poor paint job on my Spotcat in which was the biggest controversy in the 1:18 world.

What exactly is wrong with the paint scheme on this Hornet? I'd really like to know. They picked a scheme used in Enduring Freedom and a scheme that is current for that squadron. The pictures we have seen seem to be a quickly done paint master to show what it will look like. I'm sure the F-18 will look as good as the F-16. BBI usually does not do a shoddy paint job on its models.

A matter of opinion, I thought a front-line fleet hornet would be much more appropriate. But PR photos for a model with maligned numbers and "Enter-price" is unacceptable. Again, goes back to my previous comment about BBi PR being completely oblivious.

My biggest concern in this thread is that every time a BBI product is released. There seems to be a bunch of haters that come out of the woods to comment. Yet many of these haters are the same ones commenting on the BBI Facebook page they want new products. People can't have it both ways, and to do so is being a hypocrite. I can find thread after thread here of posts of people hating BBI, their prices or something. Do people think BBI took 21st out of business? Do people think there is some 1/18 conspiracy involving BBI? I'm just curous as to why there is so much hatred and disgust with this company. I would love to be enlightened by someone in the know, because I do not get it.

I have an opinion just like everyone else here. I don't agree with the pricing, therefore I voice my opinion.

[tko211]

MOQ (minimum order quantity) is a driving force of pricing that faces any manufacturer. The MOQ for a large 1:18 plane is around 2,500 pieces. The cost to fire up the molds, make the tampo print patterns, labor, packaging, and shipping make these planes much more expensive than the old days of Retail support from WalMart and TRU... Right now through online sales and catalog business it takes a manufacturer about 10-16 months to move 1,800 - 2,000 pieces. (if the subject and scheme is good enough)

With Mass support MOQ goes out the window and the numbers being run are more like 20,000 to 30,000 pieces. Fixed production costs are spread across the whole order and the price per unit reduces by about 1/2. This GAP is where much of the price hike occurs.

All that being said- BBi at one point did believe that the 1:18 market was dead and was no longer planning to make planes (until they saw us buying the Tomcat for 300.00 & ebay purchases of the F-16 & F-18 demonstrated a demand and willingness to pay 200+ for those models) This event ABSOLUTELY gave them the confidence needed to run the old molds with new schemes in a MOQ mode. (2,000 pieces).

Another fact: It's likely that JSI in spite of the sales success of 3,000 + Tomcats has NOT been profitable yet... New tooling typically is not covered until about 15,000 or more units have been sold. (based on size and mold complexity it could be much more). So when a company like BBi is having to deal with an MOQ situation because of a lack of mass sales support, the only choice they have is to "push plastic" into the old molds (new molds are cost prohibitive even at a 300.00 price point) Bottom line = the hobby is lacking VOLUME sales.

[GooglyDoogly]

Everyone loves capitalism, until it's their time to buy something, then they become socialists, raising their fists against these money-hungry companies, and their evil profits.

Supply vs Demand folks. Since BBI knows that people are willing to pony up $200+ for this model...so why shouldn't they expect to sell this for $200+ again?

If there's another 1/18th F/A-18C Hornet in the same caliber as the BBI version, kindly point me towards it, at a lower price point, because as far as I know, BBI is the only one that's done an F/A-18C Hornet in this scale.

[rjvilla82]

Bottom line = the hobby is lacking VOLUME sales.

...so buy more 1/18 birds or suffer a dead hobby

[tmanthegreat]

Thanks for chiming in with your insight TKO. It should help many members with understanding why we are paying double for old toolings now. It makes sense to me.

As I recall, even during the glory days, these items never really seemed to sell well... There was a market for them, just it was small, appealed largely to fringe collectors, and could hardly qualify as mass support. Wal Marts discounting pallet loads of XD products no one bought come to mind.

[King O' Fools]

So, if these latest developments (price-wise) are any indication, then there's no way the latest P-51 repaint will (should) retail for less than $100, considering the e-Bay and BBI precedents. And yet most of the posters commenting on that thread openly admit that they will only buy the 'American Beauty' if it's priced under $100. (<sarc>Socialists, the lot of them!</sarc>)

Of course, that has more to do with the limited appeal of the subject (which has been released in a dozen paint schemes) than anything else.

However, if this is indeed the new trend for 1/18 scale collectibles (repaints of old molds with short production runs), then it stands to reason that (with ever higher prices and a shrinking customer base — due to a growing lack of interest & people being priced out of the hobby) the sales volume will steadliy decrease while the price point rapidly increases. Bottom line being no new product will ever be released under this new business model, as it would not be profitable.

Is that it, and manufacturers are just milking their outdated molds for all they are worth before dropping the scale altogether?


BTW, I don't know how many times I have heard during the heyday of this scale that we should not be complaining about QC issues because these were mass produced toys and were priced accordingly. Well, these are still the same toyish molds of yesteryear or worse (Exhibit A: BBI's Blackhawk and the sliding side windows) — only with updated 2012 niche collector price points.

This must be the only scale where manufacturers get to have their cake and eat it too. Apparently, some things don't ever change.

[CW4USARMY]

Everyone loves capitalism, until it's their time to buy something, then they become socialists, raising their fists against these money-hungry companies, and their evil profits.

Supply vs Demand folks. Since BBI knows that people are willing to pony up $200+ for this model...so why shouldn't they expect to sell this for $200+ again?

If there's another 1/18th F/A-18C Hornet in the same caliber as the BBI version, kindly point me towards it, at a lower price point, because as far as I know, BBI is the only one that's done an F/A-18C Hornet in this scale.

AMEN!

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

With all due respect King O' Fools, I have been saying quite faithfully over the years that QC was lacking in this scale and needed to be improved. It doesn't really matter if a model is $20 or $2000, the QC should be up to the expectations of the buyer. I never agreeed with the 21st concept some people put forth over the years here about "touching up" and "fixing" a model and then living with it just to please 21c. That is garbage. The JSI F-14 fiasco was one of the WORST QC issues ever to make it into 1/18 scale. No excuses for that kind of quality and service at all. As far as BBI goes, although you hear of a QC issue every so often such as two of the same part, these things do happen, and as far as I know BBI has been generally good about standing by their products and getting replacements to their customers. Seems like BBI is a bit better in the QC department. But I actually agree with you in this case, the people who said we should ignore QC issues were ridculous. I believe this mentality, the mentality we will fix it ourselves and not holding 21c accountable was one of the many reasons they went under.

That said, if the quality of the new F-16 is any indication, the BBI F-18 coming out should be just fine and have minimal QC issues.

Corey

[JOC]

Has anyone noticed the small mistake in the spelling of the Enterprise? On the display photo's it shows up as USS Enterprice....................
Wonder if that foopaw will be fixed before delivery?
JOC

[C00per]

tko, thanks for the info!

So from an investors point of view, do you guys think that there is room for an increasing value/price of this F-18 repaint?

Regardless of those QC issues mentioned all of the old releases gained in value. If I remember correctly about 700 pieces of the Bad Cat Exclusives were released and they cost quite a lot nowadays. Considering an output of 2000 now I wonder if we may see a rising value/price for this release in the secondary market?