1/18 V2

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:52 pm

Jay wrote:mmmmm so the ideal setup would be to have a warm print bed area, but have the actual print hardware/electronics kept cool?
Yes. It turns out the thermal balance between keeping the things you want hot hot and keeping the things you want cool cool is a bear. For instance, when Makerbot went to a stepper motor for the extruder, they had to work out a little bitty fan mount on top of the motor, because the motor sits right above the extruder, which is obviously the hottest part of the machine. I had my doubts about that design when it came out, but I've upgraded to the stepper extruder and it works fine, and is a great improvement over the original analog DC motor, which was a kludge and the weakest part of the original version.

But I have solved the problem for the mega-part. I've now had four successful prints of it in a row -- starting it when the machine is stone cold. All the failures were begun when the printer had already been cranking a long time. So, I'm back on track toward fully implementing the new design for the engine section and fins. I should have some pics of a relatively finished first example by the weekend.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by sdcc73 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:04 pm

Anyone near Alabama close to the U.S. Space & Rocket Center?
An exhibit opened a couple weeks ago with a big V-2 in honor of von Braun's 100th birthday next year. EXCERPT: "October 21, 2011 to May 2012, U.S. Space & Rocket Center will proudly present '100 YEARS OF VON BRAUN: HIS AMERICAN JOURNEY' - an awe-inspiring exhibit showcasing the life of Dr. Wernher von Braun, in honor of his 100th birthday on March 23rd, 2012."

VIDEO: http://videos.al.com/huntsville-times/2 ... braun.html

Somebody go, take pictures, and post it for gburch's great project / thread!
With the new Dragon 1:18 Space line hopefully more of the latter big rockets/missiles in 1:18 will be made. Much of whom can double also as their twin-sister Military counterpart Missiles...
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:56 am

More experiments -- notes after the pics (and some notes about kit release timing):

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A question I've been asked by the few folks who've had access to development-level parts is why I haven't designed the rocket body elements to have their connecting parts printed into the body shell parts. The main reason I've given is that I had designed most of these parts to be as tall as the printer can work, necessitating separate "mating collars."

Since I "locked in" the original beta design, I've been able to push the "printable height" I can get out of the bot another 2-3 cm. While I'm working on finishing a demonstration of the new fins and engine section, I decided to do some experiments to see if I could print the mating collars directly into at least some of the rocket body parts. These pics show the first results that are close to what MIGHT be usable.

The first pic shows all of the tank section parts printed in this way. The second pic shows the long, straight-sided first two parts mated. At the level of simple printing, these experiments are a success. The parts come out with acceptable outer contours, and fit snugly. But there are some downsides.

First, one of the challenges that made me not do this before is that the interior contour of the parts has to take into account the maximum overhang that the printer can render in plastic (c. 65 degrees or so). Given this, the print time for these parts is a little more than the sum of the print times for the shell and internal parts separately, because I have to design in a transition from the shell to the mating collar that doesn't exceed that limit.

Second, there's the print time itself. I had gotten the print time for the largest tank section parts down to just over an hour. Now the time for the largest of these parts is three and half hours. By itself, this isn't a problem: the Makerbot is far more reliable than it was formerly, and now that I've identified the need to do long-print-time parts from a cold start, these prints come out without flaws. But long print times do put an additional constraint on my work flow, since I have to find blocks of time in my actual real life to accommodate them. I'm a very early riser, and often work from home in the mornings, so this is something I should be able to accommodate and still stick to the 1-kit-per-week goal I've set for myself.

Finally, though, is an issue that is a consequence of these factors: part strength. The design for the body shell parts I'd locked in some months ago was as thin as I could possibly make it. At the time, I was doing this for reasons of reliability: I had significantly fewer failed prints for parts that printed in under two hours. With the many upgrades I've done to the printer as Makerbot has refined their design, I can start a 2-3 hour print now with high confidence that I won't get a glitch while the printer is executing the part.

But there are real problems in transitioning from a super-thin-walled element of a part to a thicker-walled element, which is inherent in printing in the mating collars. The thin-walled body shell parts get their cylindrical rigidity from the mating collars. Without them, they have about the same x-y crush strength as a thin cardboard tube. With them, they're as strong as thick-walled PVC pipe.

When the two elements are merged into the same printed part, the adhesion between layers degrades in the zone where the part transitions from thin to thick walls. There is much technical detail here, but suffice it to say that the angle of transition is more important than just addressing maximum overhang. The "fill" between shell elements has a LOT to do with whether the layers and shells will have good adhesion. The bottom line on this is that, while the parts pictured above LOOK good, they're actually not strong enough to make it into a released kit. I've already had to inject some CA glue into delaminations at the transition between thin and thick walls on these parts to work with them.

Right now, I'm experimenting with altering the "angle of departure" to get the best fill to combat delamination. Whether that will be a fruitful path of experiment is yet to be seen. With each experiment taking 2-3 hours to print, this is a painstaking process. There's another line of experiment I MIGHT try, which is to tinker with the bot's fill settings for these parts. I'm loathe to do this, though, because my goal has been to design the parts to all work with the same print-control settings. If I have to use multiple print-control settings for different kinds of parts, it adds to the things I have to keep track of in a real kit production environment.

So, for now, I characterize this as pure experimentation, which might or might not make it into a first release kit. If it does, it will reduce the part count in the tank section from nine to four parts, slightly reduce the effort in kit assembly and will decrease significantly the chance that a builder might make a mistake in assembly requiring replacement parts.

Meanwhile, real-world work has once again thrown a kink into my plans for a release date. As some here know, I pay the bills with work as a trial lawyer. One of the problems with this is that my schedule is at the mercy of the courts I work in. I have a major case that WAS set for trial in the first part of December. This trial would have been finished before Christmas, which would have given me the holidays to lock in a final release design, revise and complete kit documentation, and start taking orders and printing kits for sale in January. That case has now been reset to the second half of January, and the scope of the case has increased beyond what it already was. This will mean that I will probably not be able to get to actually selling kits until the second part of February, at the earliest.

... thus it is with garage builders . . .

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by pickelhaube » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:39 am

Have you thought of making a sleeve to join the parts ?

That way you can make all the parts the same thickness . You should be able to make the sleeve to slide inside of the parts to hold and align them together.

Also it should cut down on the time for the big parts and you should have shorter run time on the smaller sleeves.

Of course the overall run time would be longer but the intervals between the parts should give the printer time to cool.
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:03 am

pickelhaube wrote:Have you thought of making a sleeve to join the parts ?

That way you can make all the parts the same thickness . You should be able to make the sleeve to slide inside of the parts to hold and align them together.

Also it should cut down on the time for the big parts and you should have shorter run time on the smaller sleeves.

Of course the overall run time would be longer but the intervals between the parts should give the printer time to cool.
The current beta version does use separate internal sleeves. This specific project is just an attempt to reduce part count and make assembly a little easier. If it doesn't work out, it won't be a major issue, as the way I've been doing it up to now has no impact on surface finishing and only adds a few parts and assembly steps over what I might be able to achieve if the "integral sleeve" works out.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by 812boys » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:58 pm

Very nice work it looks really good. I remember seeing I think it was a v1 up in Greencastle Indiana on there square years ago. My grandpa actually was in a artillery unit set up to shoot these things down until they got pulled into the battle of the bulge to be used as anti armor. He hated trying to hit them. The only two stories he used to tell us was about being in a convoy and coming under attack by a v-1 or v-2 that he just happened to get off of the tractor before it hit but his buddy that, them and my grandmother and his buddies wife all got married together right before they shipped out wasn't so lucky. And about being in the bulge about how cold it was that he actually took his mummy bag and cut holes in it for his legs and arms and stood guard in it. The only time he ever told us this was right before me and my buddy K.C. were going to leave for the army. My buddy actually says he used the idea on a cold night in Iraq. When do you expect to start shipping?
God bless our soldiers and vets that have served. "All Gave Some...Some Gave All"
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:19 am

812boys wrote:When do you expect to start shipping?
With current progress and the constraints imposed by real life, it's looking like I could start taking orders and shipping the first kits in mid-February.

A note on progress on fin redesign: I spent some time this weekend doing some slight recontouring of the fins to address issues that only became apparent as I've been working on trying to perfect the panel lines. A slightly concave contour crept into the fin surface as I've been working on the panel details, and I'm tweaking the surface to fix that.

Speaking of which, even with improved contours, there's no question that finishing the fins with panel lines will be a good deal more work. With four fins, each with two sides, there's eight surfaces with a lot of detail to scribe out. I'm thinking of offering three kit options: buying the kit with or without paneled fins, or with two sets, one smooth and one paneled.

With a base price of $150 for either of the first two options, the two-fin-set option would be $170. I think I'm going to recommend the two-fin-set option to any but the very best modelers. That way you can build the smooth set first to get the hang of things and definitely have a finished model with them, and then do the paneled fins after you've got the experience of building the complete model with the smooth fins. With the new fin design joining at a panel line, keeping the fins removable won't detract at all from the model's appearance. Of course, you could always buy a set of paneled fins separately, for $20; and buying replacement parts for anything you mess up will be no problem, since for me it's just a matter of printing what you need.
812boys wrote:My grandpa actually was in a artillery unit set up to shoot these things down until they got pulled into the battle of the bulge to be used as anti armor. He hated trying to hit them. The only two stories he used to tell us was about being in a convoy and coming under attack by a v-1 or v-2 that he just happened to get off of the tractor before it hit but his buddy that, them and my grandmother and his buddies wife all got married together right before they shipped out wasn't so lucky.
Your grandpa had to be talking about V-1s, as there was no shooting down a V-2 -- during its terminal phase it was waaay supersonic -- the literature on the V-2 is full of folks in target areas talking about hearing the sonic boom of the incoming rocket AFTER seeing and hearing the explosion of the warhead.

I don't know of any V-2s that were intentionally launched at the Bulge combat area. The only "tactical" use of the V-2 of which I'm aware was the attempt to take out the Remagen Bridge across the Rhine:
After its capture, the Germans made repeated unsuccessful efforts to destroy it via aerial bombardment, field artillery and the use of floating mines. On March 9, 1945 a German counter-attack of the LXVII Armeekorps began, but was too weak to ensure success. The German High Command tried desperately to destroy the bridge in the following days, even using frogmen to plant mines and a railway gun which missed the target. In one of the few deployments of the type as tactical bombers, Arado Ar 234 jets attempted to destroy the bridge (observed by Stars and Stripes newspaper reporter Andy Rooney), and on March 17, 1945, eleven V-2 rockets were launched at the bridge from the Hellendoorn area of the Netherlands, about 200 kilometres (120 mi) north of Remagen, destroying a number of nearby buildings and killing at least six American soldiers.

Later on March 17, ten days after its capture, the bridge suddenly collapsed into the Rhine. Twenty-eight U.S. Army engineers were killed while working to strengthen the bridge, and 93 others were injured. However, by then the Americans had established a substantial bridgehead on the far side of the Rhine and had additional pontoon bridges in place.
The collapse was not caused by a direct hit from a V-2, as the nearest 'strike' was 270 metres (300 yd) away. However, the bridge had been weakened by the earlier bombing attacks. Some speculate that the wear and tear of weeks of bombardment, combined with the vibrations produced when a V-2 slammed into the earth at 4,800 kilometres per hour (3,000 mph), was enough to cause the collapse of the bridge.

The next day, Hitler sent a congratulatory telegram to the officer in charge of the V-2 rocket launching team at Hellendoorn. It is unknown whether Hitler was aware that there had not been a direct hit by a V-2 rocket, but the fact that the bridge collapsed on the same day as the attack, was probably enough for Hitler to associate the collapse directly with the V-2 bombardment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludendorff_Bridge

Of course, the V-2 was notoriously finicky, and V-2 launch crews developed a lot of dark humor regarding how dangerous it was to the crews ("the safest place to be when a V-2 is launched is the target zone," etc.). As many have pointed out, far more people were killed in developing, building and deploying the V-2 than enemy were killed by it as a weapon. It wasn't at all uncommon for V-2s to veer off course and land just about anywhere. So, it's possible one hit in the Bulge, but I've never seen any mention of it (and at this point, I may have read every word in English about the A4/V2). Given that it carried a full ton of HE in its warhead, and that its fuel and oxidizer were even more powerful as an explosive, shortfalls were indeed very destructive.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by flyboy_fx » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:06 pm

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by 812boys » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:49 pm

Thanks for answer on the shipping. I have a little more info on the story going through my dads stuff I found a book that the company he was in wrote after the war.

He was with the 125th AAA gun Bn
They were first stationed in Southern England, and had a record of shooting down 750 V1 rockets. The book is in rough shape but was made in Belgium appears to be a going home present.

They were sent into the Bulge only a few miles ahead of Von Rundstedt's army and took up positions in at a road junction by the Meuse river and were ordered to hold at all cost. To be used as Anti tank guns. Sorry for the mishap but it actually got me inspired and I ended up finding this so all and all it was a great mishap.
God bless our soldiers and vets that have served. "All Gave Some...Some Gave All"
In memory of my brother and father
E4 Ronald "Ronnie" Dean Allen Jr. KIA Balad Iraq, 8-25-2003
Lt. Derek "Pappy" Harrison 1-25-2008
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:17 am

(Slow) progress (notes after the pics):

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These are two pics of the current state of the redesign of the engine section and fins. The engine section body has been puttied and sanded once, then a few coats of filler primer have been applied and sanded. I'd say this is one more sanding and priming away from being ready for paint.

You can see a lower fin part being printed in the background of the first pic, which shows the print support structure that has to be cut away.

The fins on the left is what may be the final version of this design. The two parts of the fin have been separated from the print bases and sanded only for fit. There's been no surface sanding, so this fin shows "what you see is what you get" in terms of raw part surface roughness. The fin on the right is a version one or two revisions before that, that has been puttied, sanded and had a few passes of filler primer and sanding and is ready for painting.

The two assemblies in a condition close to readiness for paint show what I've been able to do with my scribing skills to achieve panel details. A more skilled modeler might be able to get a somewhat better result on panel lines.

Using UNDILUTED Squadron green putty, scribing out the panel lines is a time-consuming process, although I've developed some techniques to make it a little faster and more accurate. One big breakthrough has been the use of masking tape to mark the two sides of a panel line, leaving a gap only as wide as the scribing file. The effort to mask each panel line this way before scribing has paid off in making the work quicker once the tape is on, and also minimizing the "oops" moments when the scribing file slips out of the panel line groove. The masking tape is only needed on the first scribing, to get the putty out of the panel line groove. Scribing after that can just follow the groove established on the first pass after the putty stage.

I've ordered some thinner that I think may work on Squadron putty. I should have it next week. I'm going to experiment with diluting the putty and brushing it on, to see if that makes the big putty/sanding first step of surface finishing a little less messy and laborious.

The work on the fins shown in these pics is the result of a complete recontouring of the fins to correct some concavity and misalignment in the surface that crept into the mesh as I was drafting the panel lines and then redesigning the fin to be a two-part assembly, and also to move the fin fillets from the fins to the rocket body. This version of the fins is as dead flat-surfaced as I can get it, which makes the surface finishing much, much faster.

Finally, there will be a part in the final version not shown here -- a ring around the base of the engine section that fills the gap between the bottoms of the fins you can see here, and that will also carry the "plug" inner surface of the engine nozzle.

Meanwhile, real-world work continues to reduce the time I have to devote to this project. So progress will continue to be very slow.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by Bar » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:15 pm

Incredible. Those fins really look the business. Well done. They are amazing.
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:56 am

Finishing School (notes after the pics):

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Pic 1: On the left is an assembled tank section to which I've applied the first experimental batch of lacquer-thinner-diluted-MMD-putty (more about which below). Immediately in front of the tank section is a fresh print of the new aero-flaps (redesign required by continuing refinement in fin design). Behind the German officer is the first usable print of the bottom plate and nozzle piece, which has been puttied but not yet sanded, and inserted into a raw print of the bottom engine section for test fitting. On the right are the ingredients and tools for the new brush-on coating: MMD putty, Tamiya lacquer thinner, a glass jar and a 1-inch, stiff brush.

Pic 2: Control and Warhead section parts after receiving a coat of brush-on filler, but before any sanding. Note that I've assembled the control section framework and warhead, but left the control section access panels on their build bases, to make brushing on the filler easier.

Pic 3: Aero flaps. These are so small that I've left them on their build bases and used undiluted putty, applied with the good old fashioned fingertip. The flaps on the left have been sanded, the ones on the right not.

Pic 4: The current development bird standing up on the assembly line in the rocket factory. The tank section from the first pic has now been sanded and had a couple of coats of filler primer, and is awaiting one more sanding and priming. Issues with this are discussed below. The engine section and fins are ready for paint, and the bottom plate/nozzle is also finished and fits snugly in place.

The brush-on thinned putty looks like a real winner as the best surface finishing technique I've experimented with yet. The thinner is slightly reactive with the ABS plastic used by the printer, and some weaknesses in the then-current design of the tank section components became apparent when I applied the thinned putty -- the thinner ate through just enough of the skin to delaminate the lines where the parts thickened to their integral, printed-in mating elements. Thus the extra lines you can see in the first pic. I had to glue these parts back on and, in doing so, didn't get them to line up perfectly. Thus the raw, undiluted putty you can see in the last pic. I'm having to even out the less-than-perfect re-joining I did when the parts delaminated.

I had an aha moment last night after this happened, and think I've figured out how to have my cake and east it too in terms of printing the mating collars into the tank section parts, and still have them strong enough to finish and handle. I'm now printing a series of test pieces with the reinforcing ribs I've designed into these parts to strengthen the thin-shell-to-thick-shell transition, and will make another tank section with them over the next few days to see if they can hold up to the brush-on putty.

The brush-on, thinned putty is a major improvement in how "buildable" any kit made from printed parts are. I'm using a ratio of putty to thinner that yields a consistency a little more than whole milk -- something like fresh cream or even a little thicker. On parts like the tank section that have simple contours, a single brushed on coat, sanded after it dries completely, will prepare the surface for a few sanded coats of filler primer, which gets you to glass smoothness. The brush-on thinned putty is much less messy to apply and, because there's only as much putty as you need, there's much less sanding and dusty mess than there was with what I've been doing on the last few rounds of finishing I've done with finger-applied undiluted putty.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by pickelhaube » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:36 am

Very interesting application of the green stuff.

Do you make as needed or do you make a bunch and keep it in the jar?

How long does it last before it dries up ?

I use the Bondo version in my application. I use the red Bondo " glaze " for touch up holes and the like and I use the Glazing cut with denatured alcohol for texture surfacing.

Like a cast hull. But is dry real quick and will dry up in a matter of minutes ready to sand.

Do I guess to the alcohol evaporation.
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:18 am

pickelhaube wrote:Very interesting application of the green stuff.
Not my idea. I took the time to read Nick Karatzides' detailed build thread on his unusual helicopter trainer model:

http://www.warbird-photos.com/gpxd/view ... =9&t=25656

Way down in there, he mentions that he uses the technique of diluting putty with lacquer thinner so he can use a brush in very small places. The application for this I'm using on my printed parts is completely different -- using Nick's idea to address BIG areas, rather than very small ones. But it's a great example of how it's worth REALLY reading CLOSELY a detailed build thread from a great builder -- because you never know what ideas and tips and techniques you'll pick up; even (or maybe especially) to apply to a problem completely different from what you're reading about.

Speaking of which, way back, in another context, you suggested the idea of printing in internal strengthening ribs in response to some problem I was encountering. At the time, I didn't think I could make that idea work in the specific context you suggested it. But I remembered your idea when I encountered the delamination of outer shell elements in the thin-walled tank section parts I've been working on. I tried it, and it looks like it's going to work:

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I'm still printing the last of the parts with these experimental ribs, but it looks like it will work. Printing in the ribs bridges the zone where the shell transitions from thin to thick, and reinforces that transition line. I think it's going to work. I'll post some pics later of a complete tank section with the reinforcing ribs once I have all the parts.
pickelhaube wrote:Do you make as needed or do you make a bunch and keep it in the jar?

How long does it last before it dries up ?

I use the Bondo version in my application. I use the red Bondo " glaze " for touch up holes and the like and I use the Glazing cut with denatured alcohol for texture surfacing.

Like a cast hull. But is dry real quick and will dry up in a matter of minutes ready to sand.

Do I guess to the alcohol evaporation.
I make only as much as I think I'll need in one application. If I run short, I just squeeze some more putty into the jar, pour in some lacquer thinner, and use the brush to "smush" the putty into the thinner and mix it well. It dries very fast, even in the jar, because the lacquer thinner is so aromatic, i.e. evaporates so quickly. If I have time later this weekend, I may experiment with some other thinning agents (but I suspect the Tamiya lacquer thinner may be the only thing that really works, due to the chemistry of the MMD putty).

I may pick up some of the red Bondo you use. I've seen it in your Horton build and wondered what it was.

Meanwhile, here's another pic of the rocket factory:

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Control section access panels -- still on their build bases -- are taped to a piece of 1x2 scrap on the right to make a "paint jig" for filler-primer application. In the center, minor undiluted putty touch-up is drying on the control section framework and nosecone after a first coat of filler primer. These turned out extremely well in the brush-on thinned putty stage. The finished engine section and fins with panel lines are on the extreme left, waiting for the rest of the new development bird to catch up to the stage of first paint.

Speaking of which, I want to do this development bird in the same operational splinter camo as the last beta in the middle of the pic, but the shortage of Tamiya spray lacquer is putting a real crimp in my style. I've managed to pick up enough of the green and tan, but only have a very little of the Dark Yellow left, and haven't been able to find ANY anywhere in months . . . :cry:

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:17 am

More pics and notes from "finishing school:"

The control section framework ready for a second coating of filler. This is after a first brushing with diluted putty, sanding, a first heavy coat of filler primer, sanding, a very few undiluted putty touch-ups to fill the little seams where the frame elements meet the top bulkhead, and sanding that putty. One more coat of filler primer and one more light sanding will have it ready for paint:

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The control section access panels after brushed diluted thinner, sanding and filler primer. One light sanding and a thin coat of filler primer remains:

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This is the current version of the lower-most part of the tank section, during printing. The part's a little blurry from the motion of the printer. You can see the internal ribbing just beginning to be laid down.

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The bottom tank section part, fresh from a completed printing:

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As with everything in life, it seems, there are trade-offs in this approach. As you can see, the external surface is not nearly as smooth and even as the tank section body parts that were printed separately from the internal mating collars. The internal structure of the current design causes structural "echoes" in the thin-walled elements of the external surface. I've tilted the part and lighted it to maximize the shadows and show the full impact of this.

The Big Question here is whether the little bit of extra filling required because of this deformation of the surface contour of the tank body parts (see below) outweighs the benefit of a lower part count and fewer assembly steps (and therefore a smaller chance of assembly error).

If anyone is actually following this thread who might end up building a kit, I'd appreciate hearing opinions on this: Which would you prefer: smoother tank section body shell parts, but more internal parts and assembly, or tank section body parts that require one more step of surface finishing, but fewer parts and simpler assembly?

Next is all of the tank section parts with all but one of their mating collars printed into the parts -- fully assembled. The areas that need filling because of the deformation described above have been puttied and sanded as an extra step before the diluted putty is brushed on the whole assembly:

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Here's a shot down the inside of the assembled tank that shows the structural detail:

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The new tank section sanded after a coat of brushed diluted putty, a couple of sanded filler-primer coats away from glass smoothness:

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The current development bird on the assembly line, just a few touch-up steps away from first paint:

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A shot looking down from the pointy end:

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The engine section and fins, needing just a few minor little tweaks before paint:

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Note that I have a trick up my sleeve to address the two round port details you can see here that just don't print and scribe that well.

With any luck, I'll get paint done by the end of the day on Sunday . . .

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by aae83 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:02 am

Really like the enhancements you're making, gburch, and the in-progress pics! The shot up the length of the tube is especially striking, looking much like internal views of real rockets.
gburch wrote:If anyone is actually following this thread who might end up building a kit, I'd appreciate hearing opinions on this: Which would you prefer: smoother tank section body shell parts, but more internal parts and assembly, or tank section body parts that require one more step of surface finishing, but fewer parts and simpler assembly?
I like the latter. Does it significantly affect the overall time for the Makerbot to produce a full kit?

Not wanting to suggest adding effort where it isn't necessary, but do you have alignment keys/marks for making sure adjacent tube sections are clocked correctly relative to each other? Maybe it doesn't matter.

Very, very cool.
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:49 am

aae83 wrote:Really like the enhancements you're making, gburch, and the in-progress pics! The shot up the length of the tube is especially striking, looking much like internal views of real rockets.
gburch wrote:If anyone is actually following this thread who might end up building a kit, I'd appreciate hearing opinions on this: Which would you prefer: smoother tank section body shell parts, but more internal parts and assembly, or tank section body parts that require one more step of surface finishing, but fewer parts and simpler assembly?
I like the latter. Does it significantly affect the overall time for the Makerbot to produce a full kit?

Not wanting to suggest adding effort where it isn't necessary, but do you have alignment keys/marks for making sure adjacent tube sections are clocked correctly relative to each other? Maybe it doesn't matter.

Very, very cool.
Thanks for the interest and support. There's no detail in the tank section body elements, so no "clock" keys are necessary. Beyond this, and thinking of clocks . . . I think I may have come full circle on the notion of printing in the tank section body shell mating parts.

Take a look at these two pics:

Image
Image

These compare tank section body parts with and without integral mating collar. As you can see, there's really no comparison in how smooth and perfect the outer surface of the body parts are when they're printed without an integral mating collar.

Having done what I can to balance structural strength, print time and number of parts against surface smoothness, I'm now ready to declare all the work I've done on trying to print all but one of the mating collars into the tank section body parts as a time-consuming and tedious failure. But that's why they call it "trial and error."

I have managed to print in the bottom-most mating collar (the one that holds the element that mates the tank section to the engine section) with no degradation of external contour smoothness or strength. All the other mating collars ended up causing the kind of divots in the external contour you can see in the pics above. So, I'm going back to the last design for those. It's only four more parts and a few more assembly steps but, especially with the diluted putty surface finishing technique, the result in decreased over-all build-and-finishing time will be a net positive.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by Bar » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:54 am

Sorry for the delay in this reply. My computer got a terrible virus and i wasn't able to get it fixed till today.
Thos integral mating collars look good, but if it messes with the outer surface, then i'd say go with the previous version that worked.
And the internal structure looks great, but if it doesn't add too much, then i'd say forget that too. No-one will ever see it except the builder and it will just use up your material. the previous version look okay and was strong enough according to your earlier pics.
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by Mesa » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:22 am

I applaud the patience and skill necessary for success on this 1/18 V-2 project. I am wondering if there is a practical, cost-effective manner to add the appearance of the thousands of rivets found on the real-life version of this German rocket. BBI has found some way to add the appearance of surface rivets for most of their 1/18 aircraft. Is the technique they used known and able to be reproduced?
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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:05 pm

Mesa wrote:I applaud the patience and skill necessary for success on this 1/18 V-2 project.
At this point, I think the "patience" has become something more akin to a mental illness.
Mesa wrote: I am wondering if there is a practical, cost-effective manner to add the appearance of the thousands of rivets found on the real-life version of this German rocket. BBI has found some way to add the appearance of surface rivets for most of their 1/18 aircraft. Is the technique they used known and able to be reproduced?
1/18 scale rivets are definitely beyond the resolution I can achieve with the printer I'm using. Super-scalers will be able to add rivets to the kits I make with the kind of rivet tools (including wheels that lay down lines of rivet marks) that the very best scratch-builders and customizers use. I'm going to experiment with this myself on at least some parts to just see if I can do it for myself.

The kind of rivet detail you're used to seeing from manufacturers like BBI come from the molds into which they inject the plastic that their products are made from. The details in the molds come, in turn, from either a master or, I suspect, very high-end CNC machining of the molds directly.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:49 am

Getting there:

Image

I'm getting close enough to the conclusion that I have a true "release for sale" version that I've begun the first steps of working on the graphics that will go into the final kit instructions. The exploded view above shows all the parts of what is almost certainly going to be the version I release for sale.

Some more or less random comments on my thinking regarding a release version:

-- After the experiments with printed-in mating collars, I'm now certain that I will release the kit with the tank section having separately-printed mating collars in all but the bottom end of the lower-most tank section outer skin parts. The negative impact on the quality of the outer skin of printing in the mating collars definitely wasn't worth the slight decrease in part count and ease of assembly. The separate mating collars are shown in the exploded view above.

-- For clarity's sake, only two of four sets of fin parts are shown in this exploded view, and only the version of the fins that have panel lines printed in.

-- Having now assembled and finished a few of what will almost certainly be the final version of both the "paneled" and "smooth" fins, I've concluded that, even with the best surface finishing techniques I've been able to develop, the paneled fins take a lot of work to get right. With eight sides that each have lots of lines that have to be scribed during the finishing process, producing a nice finished result takes a good deal of effort.

-- Given this, I'm pretty sure I'll only sell the kits with parts to make BOTH sets of fins -- smooth and paneled, and that I'm going to recommend to all but the most skilled modelers that you completely build and finish the smooth fins before you build and finish the fins with panel lines. As I've written above, this way you'll be able to have a finished and nice-looking model with the smooth fins before you tackle the paneled fins with the finishing skills you've picked up in completing the model with smooth fins -- or at least you'll have that option.

-- This means that each kit will require another 10 or 12 hours of printing. But I think this will be worth it to ensure that "early adopters" -- who will be building their first models created directly with a home 3D printer -- will be as satisfied as possible. Even though this means that each kit will have more material and time in it than I'd originally figured, I'm seriously considering keeping the initial release price at my target of $150, at least for the first few kits I sell, and until there are a few folks out there who have bought and successfully built, finished and painted their kits to build up an experience base to help later buyers.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:43 am

Final Development Parts Catalog:

Image

This image represents a fairly significant personal milestone on this project. One of the things I've been telling myself I'd do as I got close to real release of a kit for sale would be a complete renaming of all the parts in a way that was more rational for production, rather than development.

As I've worked on the V2 project for ten months now, I developed a file-naming system that worked to keep track of versions of the over-all project and then versions of individual parts within the project. But those names were much longer than were needed to keep track of a final production set of files for the whole rocket -- they encoded more information than was necessary about versions and sub-versions and sub-sub-versions than a kit builder would need and risked injecting confusion into the instructions.

Along the way, I've ended up creating literally hundreds and hundreds of files of different versions of the CADed parts. At times, I've had to go on long hunts into archive directories I've created to find older versions when I've hit dead ends and had to unwind experimental development work. Over the last week, I've created a new directory that holds just the "final" version of parts with the "final" part names that will track into the instructions. It's not as if doing this has marked a "point of no return" -- I could always go back into the old directories and hunt out older versions with the old file names. But doing the work that resulted in the image above marks a point of psychological commitment to getting this baby off the ground . . .

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:27 am

Building up release-version parts inventory in the rocket factory:

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A couple of sheets of what could be release-version instructions:

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Image

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by gburch » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:26 am

As I anticipated it would, real-world work has really ramped up, reducing significantly my ability to push this project over the "finish" (!?!) line. In what little time I have had, things have changed and moved a little:

"The Best is the enemy of the Good:"
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Looking to grab still images for possible use in the instructions and other printed material I'd like to include with the kit, I went back and watched the wonderful RocketAero DVD about the A4/V2. In doing so, I was struck by how the panel lines on the real thing's fins were actually quite difficult to see from most angles and in most lighting conditions. This led me to work on trying to make the panel line indentations (on the version of the fins that have them) on my kit as thin and shallow as possible. This has resulted in one failed experiment after another, as you can see in this pic.

I don't know where this work will end up. I may decide to just release the paneled fin pieces as I'd already produced them. In the meantime, I've spent a lot of time looking at my 1/18 planes produced by "the Majors," and noted that panel lines are significantly exaggerated on all of them, compared to the real thing. As I've mentioned before, there's a basic question of what's appropriate in a model -- exaggerated panel lines, or no panel lines. It seems that the basic approach to this problem by almost all manufacturers is to produce models with exaggerated panel lines. Now that I've decided to include both "paneled" and "smooth" fins with every kit, the choice will be up to the builder. But it's something I keep thinking about . . .

But then, there's this. Inventory build-up:
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Part designs and final production code for release versions of everything but the paneled fins are now locked in, so, whenever I get a block of time when I have to be working on work-work in my home office, I've been printing those parts. I now have complete sets of all parts except fins for three full kits and, for some parts, as many as four or five. This means that the first few kits will all go out pretty quickly once I've got the time to lock in a final paneled fin design and complete the documentation.

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Re: 1/18 V2

Post by aae83 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:56 am

I'd like to buy one of your kits, gburch. Put me down for one, when you're ready.

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