Foxhole: 21st Century "Gray" 88mm -$79.99

[CW4USARMY]

I have no problem buying one and don't see the ethical dilemma. 21st went belly up and didn't pay their bills, someone else got their goods and is now selling it. Now of course I am a little biased because 21st didn't seem to think it was unethical to falsely claim they were going to build a phantom right after Admiral Toys announced it, and then said it would be 89.99 and caused Admiral to stop development, and everyone knows 21st never had any effort started on a phantom, they just did it to scare off Admiral. 21st has strung us along many times so I have no problem buying the Pak. Karma's a Bitc$!! Only thing stopping me is unsure if it would actually be delivered.

All that being said, if someone was to break into pickelhaube's workshop and steal his molds, and then were selling product, I would not buy them, because Pickelhaube is a class act and first rate business. He's honest, keeps us informed, asks what we would like to have made, etc. Do unto others............

[lancelot]

I have no problem buying one and don't see the ethical dilemma. 21st went belly up and didn't pay their bills, someone else got their goods and is now selling it. Now of course I am a little biased because 21st didn't seem to think it was unethical to falsely claim they were going to build a phantom right after Admiral Toys announced it, and then said it would be 89.99 and caused Admiral to stop development, and everyone knows 21st never had any effort started on a phantom, they just did it to scare off Admiral. 21st has strung us along many times so I have no problem buying the Pak. Karma's a Bitc$!! Only thing stopping me is unsure if it would actually be delivered.

All that being said, if someone was to break into pickelhaube's workshop and steal his molds, and then were selling product, I would not buy them, because Pickelhaube is a class act and first rate business. He's honest, keeps us informed, asks what we would like to have made, etc. Do unto others............

I strongly agree. The only reason I wouldn't buy one is because they're 80 freaking dollars. If they were about half that price though I'd get two of the suckers.

[coreystinson]

I strongly agree. The only reason I wouldn't buy one is because they're 80 freaking dollars. If they were about half that price though I'd get two of the suckers.

That makes a lot of sense!

[AMERICAN_GRENADIER]

I have no problem buying one and don't see the ethical dilemma. 21st went belly up and didn't pay their bills, someone else got their goods and is now selling it. Now of course I am a little biased because 21st didn't seem to think it was unethical to falsely claim they were going to build a phantom right after Admiral Toys announced it, and then said it would be 89.99 and caused Admiral to stop development, and everyone knows 21st never had any effort started on a phantom, they just did it to scare off Admiral. 21st has strung us along many times so I have no problem buying the Pak. Karma's a Bitc$!! Only thing stopping me is unsure if it would actually be delivered.

All that being said, if someone was to break into pickelhaube's workshop and steal his molds, and then were selling product, I would not buy them, because Pickelhaube is a class act and first rate business. He's honest, keeps us informed, asks what we would like to have made, etc. Do unto others............

I would consider your take on this if anything you said was based in fact. 21C didnt go out of business because it didn’t pay its bills. it was the Wal-Mart deal that killed them. Wal-Mart can be a big break for any company but when they decide your done its hard to recover. all inventory sold at discounted prices is charged back to the manufacturer. this is why 21c lost their shirt. second they were developing an F-4 when this all went down and I was even able to be part of some of the early decision making. The business world is tough and how many things did Admiral announce and never do? About 75%? The main point is this 21C owns the molds Period! Those costs are paid up front when the process begins. the fact that the Chinese don’t care and are using the molds is a moral dilemma. its no different than buying things you know are stolen out of the trunk of a car in the alley. split hairs if you wish but there’s no gray area here. Companies all over the world are paying a high price for dealing with China. You can find thousands of pirated items from China on Amazon to eBay and almost nothing can be done.

[CW4USARMY]

21st was developing an F4 before Admiral? I've got some ocean front property in Arizona for ya!
Regardless of why 21st went belly up, it still means they couldn't pay the bills and went bankrupt, so my point is still valid, your point just shows why they didn't pay the bills. We all have our own opinions, I believe in Karma and the way collectors were treated, came back in spades. I'm done with the empty promises, and will buy from any company that produces 1:18 scale, and that ain't many these days. If someone buys stuff from a storage unit on auction, did they steal it? No, the owners didn't pay the bills so the business sells it to try and make their money back. What's different here? The Chinese snuck into 21st HQ and stole their molds? Or 21st didn't pay their bills so Chinese kept something to make their money back? Neither of us know for sure, and 21st/all Go sure doesn't seem fit to tell customers what the real deal is, but based on their history of false claims, I wouldn't automatically believe 21st.

[aferguson]

21c was developing a 1/18 F-4 Phantom long before Admiral announced theirs. I knew about it months ahead of ever hearing that Admiral was making one. It is purely a case of two companies developing the same popular subject at the same time.

That shouldn't be so hard to believe given that both Admiral and 21c developed the F-86 and Me-262 at nearly the same time.

But for sure, 21c did not just 'make up' the fact that they were developing an F-4 in 1/18 scale. When Admiral annunced theirs at Toy Fair a few years back 21c freaked because they were going to announce their own on the last day of the show, as a grand finale. So they had been beaten to the punch once again by Admiral, which i'm sure was getting frustrating. So they moved up their announcement a few days and then undercut Admiral's price. I bet many of us would have done the same in similar circumstances, especially if we had the WM deal behind us to back up the price point.

That said, your other points about 21c are valid, from our point of view. They did seem to have considerable disregard for their collector base, but that may be because they had other issues to worry about.....like designing what would sell well at Walmart to keep them happy.

[CW4USARMY]

Roger that, but Admiral actually had pictures of their prototype, 21st, a picture of somebody else's model.
I wasn't the only one at the time who was furious with 21st for their tactics, although the crickets are chirping now . peace.

[Dauntless]

21st Century Toys, the originators of 1:18 plastic prebuilt military models, with imitators BBI and Admiral, really screwed us with their empty promises of yet more to the bountiful feast of models we already had.

[lancelot]

If you want to keep making money you've got to keep making new innovative properties. If you just say you will and then don't you can't pay your bills and have to shut down thereby putting a solid stop to the hobby unless you've got the budget for custom artists like Pickaul or Joewoofer. So yeah, they did screw us over and the past few years of a dry market with nothing new reflects it. Acting like 21st Century had nothing to do with their own demise is naive.

[usmcchet9296]

I have no problem buying one and don't see the ethical dilemma. 21st went belly up and didn't pay their bills, someone else got their goods and is now selling it. Now of course I am a little biased because 21st didn't seem to think it was unethical to falsely claim they were going to build a phantom right after Admiral Toys announced it, and then said it would be 89.99 and caused Admiral to stop development, and everyone knows 21st never had any effort started on a phantom, they just did it to scare off Admiral. 21st has strung us along many times so I have no problem buying the Pak. Karma's a Bitc$!! Only thing stopping me is unsure if it would actually be delivered.

All that being said, if someone was to break into pickelhaube's workshop and steal his molds, and then were selling product, I would not buy them, because Pickelhaube is a class act and first rate business. He's honest, keeps us informed, asks what we would like to have made, etc. Do unto others............

I would consider your take on this if anything you said was based in fact. 21C didnt go out of business because it didn’t pay its bills. it was the Wal-Mart deal that killed them. Wal-Mart can be a big break for any company but when they decide your done its hard to recover. all inventory sold at discounted prices is charged back to the manufacturer. this is why 21c lost their shirt. second they were developing an F-4 when this all went down and I was even able to be part of some of the early decision making. The business world is tough and how many things did Admiral announce and never do? About 75%? The main point is this 21C owns the molds Period! Those costs are paid up front when the process begins. the fact that the Chinese don’t care and are using the molds is a moral dilemma. its no different than buying things you know are stolen out of the trunk of a car in the alley. split hairs if you wish but there’s no gray area here. Companies all over the world are paying a high price for dealing with China. You can find thousands of pirated items from China on Amazon to eBay and almost nothing can be done.

BlamingWally World on the demise of 21c is as lame as blaming our countries current economic problems solely on Persident Bush or even Obama ...... Our problems started years/decades before over many administrations just as 21C never diverified beyond riding the Walmart wave. No I have been collecting 21c stuff since there 12inch Nam stuff in the Mid/late 90's ..............I remember how cool there WWII stuff looked till it came out and was sub-standard. I have friends who worked for 21c, made great prototypes for them.... and then were fired outright when 21c had enough prototypes to work with for a while. I remember when 21C almost went bellyup when there deal with TRU fell thru .... You would think they would have learned from that ....No the ownership was making money and that was all that mattered so guess what I dont feel sorry for 21C and yes they did fail to pay there manufacturers and yeah I have no problem with said manufactures taking 21Cs molds to try and recoup thier losses ..... 21C and now ALLGo are a joke and I wouldnt expect much from them accpet alot of useless words.

[Dauntless]

Yeah well, some of us wouldn't even have so many of these model had 21stC not bet it all on Walmart continuing to offer these at such a great price. Dealing with the 800 pound gorilla devil, call it a bad business decision if you will, but who could have predicted they would drop them? What business could survive riding high like that only to be cut off suddenly? Yeah maybe a lack of foresight, and diversifying. Lessons learned.

Most of the blame goes to WALMART!

If when they went bankrupt and had some protection under those laws, and they still own the rights to the 21st Century Toys name, then these are illegal. It's as simple as that. Unlike China who circumvents these laws, even to recoup expenses, the laws should be respected, or it's mob rules. That's what laws are for.

We wouldn't even be having these conversations, or this forum would probably not exist had it not been for them blazing the trail. I know who buttered my bread for so many years with wonderful toys.

[CW4USARMY]

Great insight and info usmcchet9296. I didnt know about 21st's employee type situations, but it doesnt surprise me a bit. I've never been a follow blindly kind of guy, and based on this new info you shared, I really feel I dont owe 21st squat except the money I already paid for my items a long time ago. I wonder if the folks who strongly support 21st's practices then and now demanded to pay full price at Walmart instead of clearance prices, you know, to support the maker and all.

[AMERICAN_GRENADIER]

post deleted
dont want to argue over toys

[DropTank]

some of us wouldn't even have so many of these model had 21stC not bet it all on Walmart continuing to offer these at such a great price.

Bingo !! Ladies and Gentlemen, hold those cards, we have a winner.

[AMERICAN_GRENADIER]

Guys keep asking why I deleted my post so here you go. I didn’t want to get into an argument over toys with fellow members. Everyone thinks they know a guy who lives next door to the guy who talks with so an so at 21c. At their height they had a total of 6 office employees not counting the owner. I still talk with 2 of these folks on occasion and the wholesale salesman almost every week since he now works for another distributor I do business with. They where there at the end. 21C had their problems but Chet is correct you play with fire(Wal-Mart) you may get burned. Business is about making money and they felt that Wal-Mart was a way to expand their line and have capital to keep producing newer and better things. But Wal-Mart is hard to deal with they make demands and you either except them or leave. They tried to make what they wanted but eventually Wal-Mart dropped them. This is how it works if Wal-Mart pays 10 dollars for something and then discounts it to 5 the company is charged back the difference. that’s the pit fall of selling to Wal-Mart but they did except that condition when they began business with them so it was their decision ultimately. What the Chinese do to foreign companies is horrible they steal, lie and cheat to make a buck. They don’t enforce copy right laws, They subsidies their own dollar, they buy one of something and reverse engineer it so they can make it themselves and they also use slave labor (prisoners). All these things violate the international laws they signed. I’ve said it before China is the crack dealer and the world are the junkies. Cheap products that’s the name of the game. And until western governments stop pulling the rug out from under there companies things will never change.

As for the guys you know that were fired that’s how prototyping works your hired to produce a piece or 2 and that’s the extent of the contract.

[vmf214]

some of us wouldn't even have so many of these model had 21stC not bet it all on Walmart continuing to offer these at such a great price.

Bingo !! Ladies and Gentlemen, hold those cards, we have a winner.

Actually since they got in bed with the devil we are the losers. AG is all over it. Kinda hard for a company to stay in business when their product hits the clearance racks right out of the chute. Yeah we got some great prices, now what do we have? Guys that once complained about paying $80 for a new factory release are now ready and willing to pay $150 and up for a custom cast in resin or a simple repaint. I would rather have had to pay a little more than walmart prices if 21st would've signed on with more online retailers instead of putting all their eggs in one basket with someone like walmart. I'm betting they'd still be in business had they gone that route, but that's just my opinion. And sure walmart gave them some great publicity and brought in new collectors, but again, where did the deal with walmart get us? Double edged sword for us pure and simple.

[aferguson]

well, i've been with them from the beginning. The line started as a TRU exclusive, at the request of TRU for a military toy line (that is now the 'true heroes' line).

This stuff didn't sell very well at TRU. There were also rumours, which i suspect hold at least some water, that 21c owed TRU something like $11 million and TRU refused to buy any more product from them until they paid up. 21c shortly thereafter went into chapter 11 and we all anticipated the end.

They struggled on for a while then miracle of miracles, the WM deal came along. The company was reborn. Tons of product poured out and they were rolling again. WM saved 21c and this hobby, make no mistake about that.

The root problem, i think, is that these items are not well suited for either TRU or WM. There are lots of people who love them, hence the high prices on ebay, but that demand is scattered and many of the people who buy these 'toys' don't go to TRU or WM toy aisles......it would never occur to them to look there.

As a result, these didn't sell great at WM either, the discounts came and we know the rest. It's easy to say they should have diversified to online etailers and they did towards the end....but a few years ago when all this was going on, internet etailing was not anywhere near what it is today. There were far fewer of them and many of them had a tendancy to charge ridiculous prices, both on items and shipping. Time has brought many more etailers into the game and competition has brought prices in line.

Today, 21c (aka AllGo) could survive with online sailes only.....a few years ago, not likely. These are still large expensive items......they're not Dragon 1/72 tanks, so large sales numbers have to be put up to justify the line.

The other problem is that many were spoiled by WM prices, whether regular retail or incredible discounts and paying 50% more plus shipping online was unpalitable for most.

Am i saying 21c is blameless? No. They made some gaffs for sure.....but what companies don't? And some of the things that seem like gaffs to us, may have been done for reasons we don't know or simply because they had no choice (the quality control issues for example......they had to keep costs down and that's one way it's done).

I'm sure what the Chinese are doing is burning AllGo's ass. The Chinese may have justification for it (owed money) or they may just be crooks, we will probably never know.

[gburch]

I'd really like to know some actual numbers on production and sales in both "the Golden Age" and today. How many of each run of the original Golden Age items like the first 21stC planes were made? How many sold in their first run? How many were left when 21stC went belly up? What do the people who are actually trying to make a go of it (like Allgo, I suppose) think are realistic sales volume numbers for the new "all etailer" environment? (i.e. what do people estimate the size of the market is -- hundred? Thousands? Tens of thousands?)

I've asked on the board before what the actual cost of development and production might be today for a completely new plane or tank. I can remember getting numbers of low- to mid-hundreds of thousands of dollars. Is that right? And once that's sunk, what's the marginal unit cost of production? How much does that vary depending on the size of the production run? (Having worked in that business and still having a little connection to international transportation, I know that the cost of transport from China is negligible, thanks to the fact that 90% of what we consume in this country comes from there ...)

Anyway, sometimes it seems these discussions take place in a vacuum. It would be nice to have some hard numbers ....

[Dauntless]

With the e-tailer environment much better than back in the glory days ( but yes I did buy quite a few 21stC planes online too a higher prices that Walmart) a company like Algo could market a little better than 21stC depending on brick and mortar retailers like Walmart and TRU. With prices higher than they used to be, they could also do limited runs with a set time of preorder window and set amount of the limited run. I mean they already were a limited run with some just 5000 total. Cut that number by 2/3 for a special edition and watch the collector market scramble to get one.

Companies like Sideshow which is a real good example of this strategy. Though they deal with primarily 1:6 figures like the Star Wars Phase II Clone Commander they will offer for San Diego Comic Con with a short pre-order window and a limited run, the strategy works, they generally sell out quick (one per customer only) This idea could possibly be adapted for any company that offers collectible toys, Including military toys. If the limited run item is a special paint scheme overhead costs could be offset by offering it directly online possibly at a slightly higher price.

21stC did have a SDCC exclusive once called "Tender Terror" expand on that idea once again, only with online availability.

[the_bird]

the bit about 21c in the hole for 11 million doesnt make sense? how could a seller owe the buyer?

[gburch]

With the e-tailer environment much better than back in the glory days ( but yes I did buy quite a few 21stC planes online too a higher prices that Walmart) a company like Algo could market a little better than 21stC depending on brick and mortar retailers like Walmart and TRU. With prices higher than they used to be, they could also do limited runs with a set time of preorder window and set amount of the limited run. I mean they already were a limited run with some just 5000 total. Cut that number by 2/3 for a special edition and watch the collector market scramble to get one.

Companies like Sideshow which is a real good example of this strategy. Though they deal with primarily 1:6 figures like the Star Wars Phase II Clone Commander they will offer for San Diego Comic Con with a short pre-order window and a limited run, the strategy works, they generally sell out quick (one per customer only) This idea could possibly be adapted for any company that offers collectible toys, Including military toys. If the limited run item is a special paint scheme overhead costs could be offset by offering it directly online possibly at a slightly higher price.

21stC did have a SDCC exclusive once called "Tender Terror" expand on that idea once again, only with online availability.

The problem I see with this is TRUST. Since first getting into 1/18 a couple of years ago (sadly, LOOONG after the Golden Age and right at the end of the Monkey Depot clear-out), I've tried to think of business models that could re-ignite production. Some kind of pre-order or "subscription" model seems to be one way to go -- BUT the folks who do that have to be REALLY trusted. They can't have a record of false starts, announcements of new products that never materialize and lack of responsiveness -- again, sadly, problems that have seemed to plague the market since the end of the Golden Age ...

[aferguson]

i believe it was that 21c had agreed to buy back unsold product from TRU and reneged. It happened several years ago so i'm just going by memory. It was something like that. Anyway, TRU stoppped buying ALL 21c products, not just the XD line, as a result of the issue.

That was what lead to the chapter 11 and then the WM deal came along several months later and saved the day.....for a few years anyway.

[tmanthegreat]

This is some of the best and most insightful (as much as can be) conversation regarding the fate of 21c that we've had in a long time. I sort of wish TKO would jump in here and offer his opinion, but he seems to be staying away...

I'll briefly offer my two cents in that I think somewhat better management on the part of 21c would have gone a long way. Their company really struck me as over-estimating the appeal of their products and fan base. They envisioned themselves as being something like the next "GI Joe" but never quite became that and never could. Realistic 1:18 scale military products (at least the WWII/Korea/Vietnam period pieces) never seemed to quite have the popular appeal that 21c envisioned. The steep discounts at Wal Mart and TRU should provide ample evidence of that…

21c really should have taken a cue from companies like Dragon, Corgi, and others. Those companies cater directly to the premium collector and hobby enthusiast market with specialty products that have limited runs. Their items are usually never offered at mass retail and are only sold by licensed dealers who have the wherewithal and will be able to sell their products. The items do cost more, however, they are of good quality and all those companies are still around, even despite the current economic crisis.

Again, just my two cents from my limited perspective. Nevertheless, I really feel that had 21c managed itself better and developed itself more as the specialty company it really was and catered itself to the specialty collectors to which its products had the greatest appeal, it would have survived the storm…

[MCalamari]

I dare say that a large part of what sustains the GI Joe 3 3/4" / 1:18 are sales to kids, and still today kids are treated to 20-minute commercials disguised as TV shows.

FoV made there WWII and modern figures, but they also made their $2 price point "Fearless Forces" 1:18 figures in attempt to cash in on other figure lines and draw in kids / parents. That said, though I've bought a few Fearless Forces figures, when Target blew out the multi-packs and vehicles, I never once saw a kid or parent reaching for 'em.

Sahara, Platoon, and Sky Captain were nice ways for 21c to attempt to expand into other markets, but I think that any company wanting volume needs to tap into either a TV show or movie that kids will be watching again and again.

(And yes, I've been enjoying reading this thread.)

[usmcchet9296]

Im not here to argue with anyone either but let me tell you my background. I got into the 1/6th scale side of things in the late 90's after collecting Star Wars PTOF stuff and found on the internet the old Might Dragon message board and the old Warrior Forum. Now thru the MDMB and the WF I came to help found the One Sixth Warror Forum (OSW) and went to the first 21C Con and all the Weekend of Heroes ....Being a OSW Admin/Founder I had an in with Dragon, Merit, 21C, Sideshow and was privy to inside news, gossip, rumors, etc most here wouldnt. I knew most of the original desigers 21c hired to make there 12inch WWII line and still talk to some, most of whom now or did move on to Sideshow being local to where I live. I know of the big 21c debacle at TRU and yes is was a bad deal 21c made with TRU that included buying back all the crappy 21 inch figures that collected dust on TRU shelves because what was shown ended up not to be what eventially made it to the stores, I still have pictures of 21c WWII prototypes and they rocked! Coming late the the 1/18th game I wasnt buying during the heyday of 1/18th and only really cam in toward the end but I did have some stuff and like most of 21c's stuff it was either good or real bad. Now I have never claimed to be the great and all mighty OZ nor do I know everything but Im not dumb and I do have eyes to see and I see 21C as a poorly run buisness and its a shame they folded but it was inevitable considering their track record.