Foxhole: 21st Century "Gray" 88mm -$79.99

[MCalamari]

I think it is great that these are out there, but the BatCat did not call them 21c or anything else ... maybe the boxes will be gutted.

-M

[gouchy]

And the Plot thickens...

This whole 21st-AllGo-JSI situation is as intriguing and surprising as a Cold War espionage warfare between CIA and KGB, maybe this is already part of the opening shots of the 2nd Cold War for all we know

If this is not official Allgo, how'd they get hold of all the 21st 88mm boxes? Are the box makers sympathetic to or under the payroll of the pirater? Or is this the first sample and actual release be in JSI or plain boxes with a simple product sticker (like some of those bbi F-18s)?

I would sure love to get hold of one of these greyy 88s, sure beats repainting the DAK one that I have, with my awesomely awful modelling skills

Would any of you here be in a moral dilemma with regards to purchasing what may possibly be a product that infringes the IP of an american company?

[toyktdlgh]

Would any of you here be in a moral dilemma with regards to purchasing what may possibly be a product that infringes the IP of an American company?

That’s an interesting question. At this point I would say no. There isn’t enough information to say that there is something underhanded going on here. If it turned out to be something illegal then I’m sure 21C would be doing all they can to stop it. Also I’m fairly confident that most of the retailers have asked questions about its authenticity before they put up pre-orders for them. Bad Cat has been around for many years and I’m confident that they would want to be sure it’s on the up and up before they started their pre-orders. As of right now I’m going to go ahead and order one and see what happens.

[gouchy]

Well whatever possible legal issues, if any, won't be in time to do squat in China, as they're on sale there.

As I had a hunch on how the chinese work, took a quick browse on taoboa auctions (chinese ebay) and found a couple listed. Works out to about US$54-55 per piece.

Check it out for some close up pics.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10719442985

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10571473347

And on another somewhat related topic, also found this diecast 1/35 scale 88mm kit

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=3327870118

[Dauntless]

And the Plot thickens...

This whole 21st-AllGo-JSI situation is as intriguing and surprising as a Cold War espionage warfare between CIA and KGB, maybe this is already part of the opening shots of the 2nd Cold War for all we know

If this is not official Allgo, how'd they get hold of all the 21st 88mm boxes? Are the box makers sympathetic to or under the payroll of the pirater? Or is this the first sample and actual release be in JSI or plain boxes with a simple product sticker (like some of those bbi F-18s)?

I would sure love to get hold of one of these greyy 88s, sure beats repainting the DAK one that I have, with my awesomely awful modelling skills

Would any of you here be in a moral dilemma with regards to purchasing what may possibly be a product that infringes the IP of an american company?

I do have reservations about this. We want our 1:18, but what does this say about the larger picture of piracy they are getting away with in all facets of American innovation?

I hope Allgo and whatever powers of patent infringement they can muster, which is probably not a whole lot of leverage can take them to the cleaners. They are getting away with murder here. With the recent snafu too of Wingscale and the B-25 and B-17 being swept out from under the original people who put all the work into them, just underscores what these unscrupulous people on the other side of the Pacific are getting away with.

I for one am not buying one.

[toyktdlgh]

All of this is speculation. The only facts that are out there right now are that these are being made and apparently sold in old 21C boxes. No one knows if 21C is in partnership with this release or if the company selling the items have a legal right to do so or not. Lots of comments about it being illegal and unscrupulous but with no hard facts that’s a bit of a reach at this point. Who Knows? Maybe it is? Order one or don’t. If it comes to market through legal means and is legally distributed then there really isn’t much anyone can do or say. Since we don’t have the luxury of having insider information right now everyone will have to make their own decisions on it.

I personally was very leery about it from the start and decided to contact Foxhole Toys about it. I was told that the items are coming from a dealer that they have done business with since their inception and they are very comfortable with them. Apparently these items are old stock that has been repainted specifically for this distributer. In other words the distributer owns the stock and boxes so they can do whatever they want with them and at this point that means selling them. That makes me comfortable enough to proceed with purchasing one however I haven’t yet done that.

I can understand people’s concerns about it. I would suggest sending an email to the company that you are thinking of buying from and asking about it. The more inquiring people do the better. Post any info you may get here so we can all make an educated decision on it.

[aferguson]

now that makes a lot of sense. Old stock repainted. Explains the boxes, explains the sudden appearance. I hope the quality of the repaint is good. The models would have had to have been taken apart, repainted and put back together. That would be expensive but i guess if you're faced with being stuck with a 1000 or os of the DAK ones, a worthwhile thing to do. Very interesting development.

[the_bird]

Foxhole is full of it! If these pieces where repaints would they be selling them for under 90 dollars? no way! fellow board members that do repaints know how much time it takes.
i talked with my seller today he said Jim at Allgo is furious and is getting his lawyer to serve papers on Foxhole among others for these pirated items.
my seller says he also was offered these 88's but wont take anymore 21c stuff from this distributor since he found out its still being made in China despite allgos objections. these products are do to arrive in june-july from china and are NOT repaints. this is the same distributor thats been bringing in JSI items going around Merit the official distributor.
I can understand that some sellers dont care about copy right laws and back door deals but its not right. this is why dealing with China has its problems. I for one will not be buying one of these pieces and niether should anyone else. Jim from Allgo has addressed this issue on his site check it out.

[c44]

...and now Badcat is "suspending preorders at this time"...likewise Foxhole...I'm hoping a win-win-win situation is negotiated where All-Go collects some royalties & I collect a few 88s...

[Jesse James]

Repaints?

hahaha

[toyktdlgh]

Now that is quite a development.



Guess I should be a bit less gullible. Glad I held off on ordering one.

[aferguson]

sigh, oh well....time to break out the dark grey paint i guess.

[normandy]

So I guess this means no King Tigers ether....... ............just kidding.
I wish All-GO luck but when dealing with a country that doesn't respect copyright or ownership.....well I wouldn't be overly optimistic.

[pickelhaube]

So much drama in the military toy world.

Who would have thought.

[MCalamari]

...and now Badcat is "suspending preorders at this time"...likewise Foxhole...I'm hoping a win-win-win situation is negotiated where All-Go collects some royalties & I collect a few 88s...

Since the 88s were originally $90, how much would it be worth it to increase the price point so All-Go could get the royalties?

[hotrodrock]

Since I already have several of the most popular color (DAK) , I wasn't interested anyway. My question is this, what if it had been the longed for KT's that were being pirated and released by this same distributor. Would you have been as quick to question its legitimacy or would you not hesitate to jump on it if it was at a reasonable price?

[aferguson]

that could still happen. It's possible the tooling was complete for the KT. It was in a very advanced state of development when 21c closed up shop.

Rmember, TTT did say that he heard there was a 1/18 r/c KT in the works. Maybe the molds being used are the 21c ones. The months ahead could have some interesting developments.

It would be nice if AG could get a royalty from these 88's. Say $10 per unit. There were probably, what, 3000 of these dark grey ones made? That would be $30,000 for AG which i'm sure would help them alot.

[Dauntless]

I suspect the KT would be a tough one to resist for many. To each their own conscience. It's these boards, and this SSMH one in particular that keeps us informed.

Still thats fairly brazen to sell these in 21stC boxes. Most know they are out of business, and to try and pass them off as possibly new old stock is shady. To buy these might bring instant gratification, but is bad for our hobby in the long run IMHO.

[dragon53]

This may explain why JSI has never released the second wave of repaints of 21st Century 1/18 models including the P-38, F-104, UH-1, etc.----a possible lawsuit.

[MCalamari]

It would be nice if AG could get a royalty from these 88's. Say $10 per unit. There were probably, what, 3000 of these dark grey ones made? That would be $30,000 for AG which i'm sure would help them alot.

I was thinking more like $20 a pop in royalties or something that would closer amount to a PY (which in my field I always budget for $200k). Speaking of which, what are the real an annual costs for manufacturers, distributors, and retailers in this market/hobby?

[toyktdlgh]

The more I think about it the more I feel that this distributer has made up the old stock repaint scenario to satisfy potential retailers here in the States. They were probably hoping it would just end there. They never expected to encounter the wrath of this forum!

I’m betting that these are new made items from molds that were acquired when 21C passed away. I think it would be way too labor intensive to take all of these apart to resell them in a different color. Why not just release them as is for less money? They would break even with the extra time and labor invested in repaints.

I do now think it’s a total sham. Really, how big of a deal would it of been to ask All Go to go in on it with them? They certainly could of used the money and would have probably been receptive to a joint venture. Still, all speculation till someone that knows the real deal comes forward.

[Roach]

It would be nice if All Go used some of their resources to actually produce a product. They have been around almost two years and nothing, but promises.

[snake]

Saw the BadCat response earlier today, and wasn't surprised.

Unfortunately, all this "distributor" will be interested in is selling these to who ever will buy them.

Good luck taking a fly by night Chinese company to court.

And probably many international dealers more than happy to carry these.

[MCalamari]

Saw the BadCat response earlier today, and wasn't surprised.

Unfortunately, all this "distributor" will be interested in is selling these to who ever will buy them.

Good luck taking a fly by night Chinese company to court.

And probably many international dealers more than happy to carry these.

Sad situation, but I think you've nailed it. Do you think we'll now see these on ebay? And will people just start reporting them to ebay if mislabeled?

[AMERICAN_GRENADIER]

it shows how little the Chinese care about international trade laws. you think they would be smart enough to make up a new box to avoid being caught. i said it many times before they dont care and dont worry about any real issues from overseas companies. the only reason Foxhole and others took down the items was to avoid any problems with Allgo. If they wanted to burn that bridge and still sell the items they could simply do so. there is little Allgo could do if they have a bill of sale. this is the same issue we had a few months back with th reissue of the repainted spot cats