3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun May 29, 2011 3:24 pm

Beeavision wrote:Now all you need is the launch platform.
If only that was all I needed to address before this project was finished :lol:

Obviously, the launch platform is a piece of "support equipment" I will tackle if and when I ever get to the point that I think the rocket itself is "done." The three horizontal pieces (the rotating ring the rocket sits on, the top of the platform and the blast deflector) are definitely printable. The tubing is easily addressable with, well ... tubing. The feet are too small to be printed, I think, and would have to be scratch built. Something that would serve well enough could be done eventually, though ...

Beyond the launch platform, as much as I'd love to address the wheeled erector-trailer (an incredible piece of engineering in its own right, BTW), I can't see doing that before I move on to other projects ... if I'm still alive at that point ...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Mon May 30, 2011 9:21 am

Filler up:
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I'm putting the first coats of green now on the body above the engine section. Hopefully I'll be able to post some pics this afternoon.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Mon May 30, 2011 2:46 pm

Image

This is about as far as I'm going to get today, I think. I'm happy with everything above the engine section. The control section pictured on the rocket is one with separate hatch pieces, and turned out much better than the one-piece version. The coupling detail ring at the bottom of the tank section looks good painted with aluminum enamel.

Below that, though, not so good. The panel applique experiment is a bust, IMO. It's not precise enough. If other approaches don't work out, I might come back to this method and try to fabricate some kind of mechanical guide for placing the hatch pieces, but that would be a REAL kludge. Bringing the other engine section I have in work up to this level of completeness will be at least another week's worth of work.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:04 pm

Progress has slowed to a crawl. I'm struggling with the top of the engine section, where most of the hatch detail is. Contrary to my first reports on work on this section, I did eventually experience delamination with a single thin-section piece. This has led me to engage in a half dozen time-consuming experiments, none of which have been entirely satisfactory. This is the best that's come out so far:

Image

The top of the engine section here is sheathed with two half-section thin pieces that hold the panel detail. Beneath is a thicker "armature." Aligning the skin pieces has proven to be a real bear --they're so thin that tabs don't work very well.

As I work toward thicker pieces, print time skyrockets (print time grows geometrically with volume, basically). I've got another, simpler three-piece treatment of this section (that seems to look better) printing now, but total print time for those three pieces is close to seven hours. If that ends up being the best solution, there's no way I could ever go into even limited production of kits to sell at a reasonable price ... :cry:

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:52 am

As I feared, the last experiment in the pipeline (because it had by far the longest print time) proved to turn out the best in terms of crispness of panel details and mechanical strength:

Image

nothing is glued together and there has been no surface finishing done on this engine section, but I can tell from the long experience I now have with this material that this would turn out as well as the technology I'm using could produce.

As I indicated in my last post, this is bad news for the idea of ever producing even a very limited-distribution kit, since total print time for all parts would be unacceptable.

At this point I'm pretty exhausted and not a little discouraged. I'm likely to go ahead and complete the engine section in the above pic as a Rev.0.5.1, and try to come up with a better solution to delamination problem. I have at least one more idea I want to try ... (hope springs eternal ...) I do need to come up with an answer to my wife's question, "How many of those rockets are you going to make??!?!?"

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by Bar » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:07 am

It looks good to me.
And the machine is just for rapid prototyping. Once you have the prototype with the correct surface finish, you can get it cast in resin. Which would be a total breeze.
Or you could get yourself a nice long piece of sycamore and turn the rocket on a lathe...
:D
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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:26 am

Bar wrote:It looks good to me.
And the machine is just for rapid prototyping. Once you have the prototype with the correct surface finish, you can get it cast in resin. Which would be a total breeze.
Or you could get yourself a nice long piece of sycamore and turn the rocket on a lathe...
:D
I've actually thought about using a lathe for some of the perfectly-round cross-section pieces that have no surface detail (the warhead and tank section) ... but that kind of defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do, which is to use this project to explore and develop current personal 3D technology as much as possible for model-making.

As for transitioning to printing as a prototyping technology for making mold masters .... I have been contacted by at least some folks who are interested in that. But consider this -- the amount of resin in a complete A4 would be HUGE and very expensive.

One idea that might be worth pursuing once I've got something like a "final" version is combining pure production printing with resin casting -- some pieces would be cast resin, others would be printed for production. One thing I'm sure of is that *I* won't be doing the mold-making and resin casting. I've invested a HUGE amount of time and effort into getting where I am now with 3D printing, and I can't possibly see doing the same with resin casing. *IF* I were to find a collaborator with the same kind of insane commitment to this idea I seem to have, I'd definitely consider a collaborative "multi-media" kit ...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:17 am

Restoring hope ... but thoroughly confusing things, I just finished a flawless single-piece, thin-wall engine section top element print:

Image

This was done with the same printer settings as the same print that had significant delamination previously. The technical term for the response to this is "WTF?"

I suppose I'll run a few of these and see how repeatable it is. Perhaps two examples aren't enough to diagnose how this would turn out, given the impact of environmental factors --ambient air temp, plastic moisture uptake (ABS absorbs about 3% atmospheric moisture by weight over time), machine condition (I've cleaned and re-lubed the printer since the failed print ... who knows?

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by Bar » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:16 am

Oh yeah, for sure, i didn't mean the lathe thing to be taken seriously.
It wouldn't work for every project in any case.
As for casting, about $40 worth of timber and perhaps less than $100 worth of mechanicals(Plus a little elbow grease and a set of decent plans) would see you as the proud owner of a rotocasting machine. It would use far less resin, and the castings would be hollow, lightweight and cheap...
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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:33 pm

I am applying for official designation as a dumba$$. Returning to the house from lunch, I found the second flawless top thin-wall engine section element, mocking me in all its perfection on the build platform. That's good enough for me to realize I've wasted the better part of two weekends and nights working on one failed attempt after another to do something I didn't need to do.

The fact is that some small portion of prints of an otherwise good design fail -- why, I don't know. It just so happened in this case that it was the first of a new kind, and I assumed the failure was not one of these seemingly random events, but rather a result of pushing the machine beyond its capabilities (something that DOES often happen when I've ventured into new territory).

I suppose I should be thankful I was stubborn enough to finally go back and just try to print my original design again ...

Anyway, with that really moronic detour behind me, next weekend I should be back on track ...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:23 am

Image

This pic shows the status of the Rev 0.5.1 work as of this morning. I'm as poor a photographer as I am a modeler, so this image is not so good. Catching the detail is difficult.

Back on track with the thin-walled engine section upper element, I've finished filling and priming it. I've experimented with scribing around some of the hatches (on the left here), and not scribing others (the two hatches on the right). In both cases, sanding the filler and filler-primer has to be done carefully to retain the hatch detail while still filling the layering in the plastic inherent in the printing process. Also note that the fit of the fins is somewhat less than what will be achieved in the "final" version as I haven't yet reduced the slots and tabs that build up in the filling and priming process.

At any rate, based on my experience in going from filling and priming to paint on the previous two birds, I think this will turn out at what I'll consider a "Rev 1" level.

Meanwhile, other progress has been halted as my printer is now down. The replacement DC extruder motor failed, as I expected it would, after about six pounds of total throughput. So the bot is opened up on the bench for conversion to the stepper motor upgrade I've been sitting on. I HOPE that will be done mechanically and electronically by the end of the day today, although there will be some (probably significant) software tweaking that will have to follow that to get the new gear printing. Everyone who has made this upgrade claims to have achieved better print results, so I'm hoping everything goes smoothly and I can get into this brave new world of finer extrusion control before the weekend is over.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by Tanker85 » Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:27 am

This new technology was featured on CNN this morning. I just caught the last 15 seconds of the segment so don't know what all was said.

Eric

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:50 pm

Successful surgery:
Image
Image
... back in business, better than ever.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by [CAT]CplSlade » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:09 pm

I'm sure some of you have seen this or something like it before, but this video shows some aspects of 3D printing that go beyond toys:

http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv/TEDtalk ... ST_hero_tv

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:09 am

[CAT]CplSlade wrote:I'm sure some of you have seen this or something like it before, but this video shows some aspects of 3D printing that go beyond toys:

http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv/TEDtalk ... ST_hero_tv
Thanks for the link! I knew about the biomaterials and organ printing, but hadn't seen that clip. Even as pessimistic as I am these days about the future, TED talks never fail to make me at least a little more optimistic. I'd recommend that video to anyone who needs a little pick-me-up.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:29 pm

Image
I'm declaring victory in the "battle of the engine section hatches."

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by lancelot » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:02 pm

I'm curious, can a 3D printer make scale 1/18 weapons and accessories too? or is that too small?

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:31 pm

lancelot wrote:I'm curious, can a 3D printer make scale 1/18 weapons and accessories too? or is that too small?
At least for the way I'm doing things, I think it would be too small. There are new smaller-diameter nozzles available for the Makerbot that actually might be just barely suitable for what you're talking about (I assume you're talking about small arms). At the rate I'm going, it would likely be next year before I will get to experimenting with that.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:55 pm

Unfortunately, there will be no progress to report this weekend:
Image
After cranking up to print the first revision I've made in a while on the fins, I had an extruder heater failure that required disassembly of the bot to troubleshoot. Unfortunately I've diagnosed a hardware failure in the heater resistors that have been addressed in versions of the printer since I bought mine. An upgrade part to get to the current version of the heater is on its way and, hopefully, will be delivered in time for me to get things back together and working next weekend.

... the hazards of being on the bleeding edge of a new technology ...

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by pickelhaube » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:14 pm

gburch wrote:Unfortunately, there will be no progress to report this weekend:
Image
After cranking up to print the first revision I've made in a while on the fins, I had an extruder heater failure that required disassembly of the bot to troubleshoot. Unfortunately I've diagnosed a hardware failure in the heater resistors that have been addressed in versions of the printer since I bought mine. An upgrade part to get to the current version of the heater is on its way and, hopefully, will be delivered in time for me to get things back together and working next weekend.

... the hazards of being on the bleeding edge of a new technology ...


YIKES !!!! :shock:
Kirk Douglas : Mine hit the ground first
John Wayne : Mine was taller



Image

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by lancelot » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:25 pm

gburch wrote:
lancelot wrote:I'm curious, can a 3D printer make scale 1/18 weapons and accessories too? or is that too small?
At least for the way I'm doing things, I think it would be too small. There are new smaller-diameter nozzles available for the Makerbot that actually might be just barely suitable for what you're talking about (I assume you're talking about small arms). At the rate I'm going, it would likely be next year before I will get to experimenting with that.
I see. That's a shame really because that's the biggest use I'd have for it other than making replacement parts for some vehicles.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by gburch » Sat Jun 25, 2011 3:51 pm

A long day of robot surgery, including my first-ever soldering of a PCB together:
Image
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... but finally, after the usual trouble-shooting to find the things I didn't plug back together right when I put it all back together and recalibrating the machine, it's working again; printing the new fin-bottom part I was trying to create when the original heater resistors failed:
Image
So I'm back on the bleeding edge and will be working to catch up and get back onto the actual model design-and-development cycle again tomorrow and next weekend.

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by flyboy_fx » Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:11 pm

I'm scared of these. 0_0 lol too many wires and Murphy lives with me some something is bound to go wrong. LOL
"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready

Post by CW4USARMY » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:39 pm

I admire you persistence gburch! I don't have nearly the patience you have. The V2 is looking great so far. You're going to be the 3D printer master when it's all said and done!

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Re: 3D Printing -- Pretty Close to Ready 7/17/11 Update

Post by gburch » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:54 pm

After getting the printer back to work, I ended up taking a long break from the V2 project. I definitely hit a "commitment wall" and needed the time away from the project. So the last couple of weekends I devoted to REALLY cleaning up the mad-scientist-lab/mancave, which had become so cluttered and full of dust from all the sanding I'd been doing that it was getting pretty depressing. I built a vacuum system to suck up as much dust as possible where I do the sanding work, cleaned and rehung every one of my 1/18 aircraft (something like 40 of them in the two rooms), installed new lighting, and organized and stored EVERYTHING in sealed plastic containers. There are now multiple flat surfaces in my Fortress of Solitude that actually have nothing on them. This hasn't been the case since shortly after we built our dream house seven years ago.

I feel better now ...

So ... this weekend it was back to work on the V2:

Fins. Here's a pic of the latest fin version (on the right), printed and fit up for gluing:
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A shot of the same layout, looking down into the engine section. You can get an idea of what completely unfinished parts look like on the new fin, and also see the internal structure inside a a finished engine section (which has the most parts):
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Here's the new fin version after gluing and one mostly-sanded coat of heavy green putty to address the biggest gaps between the parts, and the areas that have the roughest surface from the printing process:
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Here are four of the new fins, ready for a final coat of filler primer. This is after green putty, sanding, latex paste, sanding, and a couple of sanded coats of filler primer:
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The most visible design change here is that the aero-flap is no longer printed into the bottom part of the fin. I was getting poor delineation of this feature with other improvements I've made in the fin structure and fillet contour, so I'm now making that a separate part. I've got that at a first-pass-acceptable printed version, but haven't experimented with finishing.
Here are some pics showing early assembly processes I've perfected, on parts going into the next full version of the rocket.
First is a pic of one of the internal connectors used to join the outer shell components of the engine section. This pic shows the "strings" of excess plastic on the top that result when the registration tabs are printed. These are very easily cut away with an X-Acto knife. The part is still on its printing raft and "sacrificial base," an element that has to be cut away:
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On thicker-section parts, this requires use of a hobby saw, like this:
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This pic shows the sawing process on the external shell piece that creates the slots for the upper tab on the fins. The sawing process isn't difficult, as I've got a slight indentation designed into the part to guide the saw. Patience and a moderately steady hand gets a part like this off its base in about a minute or less.
Here's a pic of a thin-section piece being separated from its printing base:
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This is the bottom of the uppermost outer body wall segment of the engine section. Because the plastic is printed so thin, separating it from the print base requires getting the separation started with an X-Acto knife and then "zipping" the plastic along a perforation I've designed into the print. This pic shows the result after "unzipping" off the perforated plastic of the base:
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As you can see, even with all the practice I've had, the separation isn't perfect. But a very small amount of sanding (laying the piece flat onto a sheet of paper and twisting it along the rocket's roll axis) smooths it out perfectly.
And here's where I am now:
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The rocket factory early this morning. The fins and engine section in the foreground are the latest version. The engine section body is ready for a first coat of primer filler.

I have no projection whatsoever for when I may be "finished." I'm back to having fun, so I'm not going to let myself feel pressured right now ...

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