Yellow 23 109 on ebay.

[gustav]

I wonder if this board will be around in ten years?

[Jnewboy]

I did not mean to offend you. I am sure you are happy with your purchase and I wish you the best of luck with it.

My boss could afford to buy any car he wants with a net worth of at least 10 million dollars. He drives a Toyota. If you work hard for your money, and understand depreciation why would you buy a lambo? unless it is "look at me - look at me" and if I were that type of guy I would just get huge wheels on my car and a big gold chain and heck maybe all my teeth caped in gold.

Real rich people that see a lambo go by, thats what they see anyway, its a joke no matter how much money you have.

Anyway like I said I did not want to offend you.

Im the secret owner of the other 2 HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

[vmf214]

Actually 2 of the five are owned by the same person.

Eh if someone buys something for the 'look at me' factor more power to them. Life is too short to get caught up in caring about that kinda crap. Ultimately, who cares and also ultimately it purveys tinges of envy bordering on jealousy on behalf of the types of people that are so concerned with it. Life is really too short to have such petty concerns about what everybody else has, does, thinks, etc. Wasn't that the basis for the communist ideal?

I can also point out with a clear consience if I were wealthy, myself & my family would live well, period. Wouldn't care who knew it. No resting on laurels here. It's not about understanding depreciation or some silly ecomonic strategy, it's about the freedom of want & being happy. Depreciation be consumed by fire, I'm in it for the fun factor & I believe in having the proverbial cake and eating that sucker! I feel no malice for others who feel the same way. The wealthy that live conservative to me deserve no special recognition, it's their choice how they live and of no concern to me. The sun will still rise tomorrow either way, at least till ole wormwood comes a calling.

I will say on your behalf it took some guts joining the forum and posting considering the bashings you have taken here. Alot of people woudn't have. Kudos.

[snake]

Good posts from both you guys, VMF214, and Jnewboy, and I can see both points of view.

"Extreme" collectors are willing to pay pretty outrageous prices for something that is truly rare. And would not be too concerned about turning a profit on it. They are just happy to have it, especially considering that there are very few opportunities to even consider purchasing it. I would also think that they would never consider selling it, as it would be a "crown jewel" in their collection.

I have no problem with people spending their disposable income on whatever they wish.The car analogy is a good one. There is a broad economic spectrum, and I am sure that model collectors are no different. Century Wings make a $25,000 1/144 scale Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Certainly not for me, but if you can afford it, good for you.

On a personal note, I have spent considerable time, effort and money to get every BBI F-16, and F-18. Including spending over $900 to get the second RAAF one. Crazy price, I know, but as these are extremely hard to come by, I got into a bidding war with one other buyer. And I wasn't going to be denied. No buyers remorse at all, and I haven't seen another one for sale since. Although I haven't been searching religiously as I have them all now. So I definitely understand about spending big bucks to get a rare, must have model. And I wouldn't sell it for even twice the price.

My only concern with this particular Me109, is it's authenticity. If it is the real deal, a fair price IMO. But with the prices that these have fetched over the last year or two, I would be very wary of a custom posing as the real thing. VMF214 posted a good review of the real plane, but unless you already have one, or could compare them side by side, very hard to tell. And a very good modeler could make a copy that would be virtually identical.

Different opinions on this topic for sure. And I don't think one is right or wrong. Just different.

[Jnewboy]

I will say on your behalf it took some guts joining the forum and posting considering the bashings you have taken here. Alot of people woudn't have. Kudos.

Thanks.... I think? But no worries

I only consider "bashings" from fellow builders that I know and whos work I have actually examined in my hands and consider to be very reputable like the Hun and Pickel to have any credibility, but it has made for some fun reading over the years.

[vmf214]

Good posts from both you guys, VMF214, and Jnewboy, and I can see both points of view.

"Extreme" collectors are willing to pay pretty outrageous prices for something that is truly rare. And would not be too concerned about turning a profit on it. They are just happy to have it, especially considering that there are very few opportunities to even consider purchasing it. I would also think that they would never consider selling it, as it would be a "crown jewel" in their collection.

I have no problem with people spending their disposable income on whatever they wish.The car analogy is a good one. There is a broad economic spectrum, and I am sure that model collectors are no different. Century Wings make a $25,000 1/144 scale Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Certainly not for me, but if you can afford it, good for you.

On a personal note, I have spent considerable time, effort and money to get every BBI F-16, and F-18. Including spending over $900 to get the second RAAF one. Crazy price, I know, but as these are extremely hard to come by, I got into a bidding war with one other buyer. And I wasn't going to be denied. No buyers remorse at all, and I haven't seen another one for sale since. Although I haven't been searching religiously as I have them all now. So I definitely understand about spending big bucks to get a rare, must have model. And I wouldn't sell it for even twice the price.

My only concern with this particular Me109, is it's authenticity. If it is the real deal, a fair price IMO. But with the prices that these have fetched over the last year or two, I would be very wary of a custom posing as the real thing. VMF214 posted a good review of the real plane, but unless you already have one, or could compare them side by side, very hard to tell. And a very good modeler could make a copy that would be virtually identical.

Different opinions on this topic for sure. And I don't think one is right or wrong. Just different.

Yeah if another yellow 23 shows up on ebay I'd be highly suspect. But that's the conundrum that now surrounds this particular model. How would one know if someone sold theirs offline, then the new owner put it up on a public venue like ebay? One wouldn't. But for 3 of them I can say with almost absolute certaintly, are going nowhere. Makes the odds a little better but not much.

Personally though, the more I think about it and refer back to my notes, I'm in the opinion this latest one is not authentic.

Why I think this:
The seller stated to the op that he had it for approx. 10 yrs, don't see how. Also 3 of them are physically accounted for at the time of this current listing, Jim at 21st still retained the other 2, tko said one was given to him, that leaves one. If this latest one is mystery no.5, then no way did he have it for anywhere near 10 yrs, in fact not even a couple years. However.........................

why it could in fact be the real deal:
The seller of the latest one is possibally infact 21st yet again using another anonymous user id. This would explain the "having it for approx. 10 years", that would put it in line with the timeline of when they had these done. If that is the case, it makes more sense to me to openly admit who you were as it assuredly would've brought more money if potential bidders knew it was coming from the source that created it.

Way too many variables to ever trust another one should it show up on the open market. PWP only confounded this further with their repros.

And yes jn, that was a compliment. Personally I would be more concerned what a person who could be a potential customer thought. They are the target audience, not fellow builders. Taking criticism with grace from a reputable fellow builder & brushing off the masses means little if what one makes doesn't sell. Basically you're saying you could care less what someone thinks that could very possibally be a potential buyer for your stuff as you only respect what a "reputable" fellow builder thinks. I guess that's cool if those are the ones buying all your stuff. There is nothing more "credible" than a guy with money ready to spend, that's who to impress, not your peers. A 'job well done' from someone you consider credible is good, getting paid for making something and the buyer being satisfied and happy is far better. You're definitely not the immodest type.

[Jnewboy]

And yes jn, that was a compliment. Personally I would be more concerned what a person who could be a potential customer thought. They are the target audience, not fellow builders. Taking criticism with grace from a reputable fellow builder & brushing off the masses means little if what one makes doesn't sell. Basically you're saying you could care less what someone thinks that could very possibally be a potential buyer for your stuff as you only respect what a "reputable" fellow builder thinks. I guess that's cool if those are the ones buying all your stuff. There is nothing more "credible" than a guy with money ready to spend, that's who to impress, not your peers. A 'job well done' from someone you consider credible is good, getting paid for making something and the buyer being satisfied and happy is far better. You're definitely not the immodest type.

Good posts from both you guys, VMF214, and Jnewboy, and I can see both points of view.

"Extreme" collectors are willing to pay pretty outrageous prices for something that is truly rare. And would not be too concerned about turning a profit on it. They are just happy to have it, especially considering that there are very few opportunities to even consider purchasing it. I would also think that they would never consider selling it, as it would be a "crown jewel" in their collection.

I have no problem with people spending their disposable income on whatever they wish.The car analogy is a good one. There is a broad economic spectrum, and I am sure that model collectors are no different. Century Wings make a $25,000 1/144 scale Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Certainly not for me, but if you can afford it, good for you.

On a personal note, I have spent considerable time, effort and money to get every BBI F-16, and F-18. Including spending over $900 to get the second RAAF one. Crazy price, I know, but as these are extremely hard to come by, I got into a bidding war with one other buyer. And I wasn't going to be denied. No buyers remorse at all, and I haven't seen another one for sale since. Although I haven't been searching religiously as I have them all now. So I definitely understand about spending big bucks to get a rare, must have model. And I wouldn't sell it for even twice the price.

My only concern with this particular Me109, is it's authenticity. If it is the real deal, a fair price IMO. But with the prices that these have fetched over the last year or two, I would be very wary of a custom posing as the real thing. VMF214 posted a good review of the real plane, but unless you already have one, or could compare them side by side, very hard to tell. And a very good modeler could make a copy that would be virtually identical.

Different opinions on this topic for sure. And I don't think one is right or wrong. Just different.

Yeah if another yellow 23 shows up on ebay I'd be highly suspect. But that's the conundrum that now surrounds this particular model. How would one know if someone sold theirs offline, then the new owner put it up on a public venue like ebay? One wouldn't. But for 3 of them I can say with almost absolute certaintly, are going nowhere. Makes the odds a little better but not much.

Personally though, the more I think about it and refer back to my notes, I'm in the opinion this latest one is not authentic.

Why I think this:
The seller stated to the op that he had it for approx. 10 yrs, don't see how. Also 3 of them are physically accounted for at the time of this current listing, Jim at 21st still retained the other 2, tko said one was given to him, that leaves one. If this latest one is mystery no.5, then no way did he have it for anywhere near 10 yrs, in fact not even a couple years. However.........................

why it could in fact be the real deal:
The seller of the latest one is possibally infact 21st yet again using another anonymous user id. This would explain the "having it for approx. 10 years", that would put it in line with the timeline of when they had these done. If that is the case, it makes more sense to me to openly admit who you were as it assuredly would've brought more money if potential bidders knew it was coming from the source that created it.

Way too many variables to ever trust another one should it show up on the open market. PWP only confounded this further with their repros.

And yes jn, that was a compliment. Personally I would be more concerned what a person who could be a potential customer thought. They are the target audience, not fellow builders. Taking criticism with grace from a reputable fellow builder & brushing off the masses means little if what one makes doesn't sell. Basically you're saying you could care less what someone thinks that could very possibally be a potential buyer for your stuff as you only respect what a "reputable" fellow builder thinks. I guess that's cool if those are the ones buying all your stuff. There is nothing more "credible" than a guy with money ready to spend, that's who to impress, not your peers. A 'job well done' from someone you consider credible is good, getting paid for making something and the buyer being satisfied and happy is far better. You're definitely not the immodest type.

You assume to much. I have never built anything I had to sell. I have a very comfortable life. I enjoy building, I dont enjoy the problem that my habit produces by cluttering my home and guest house with models. So when I finish one I put it up for auction, if it sells great, if not I store it. Notice I dont start to many at .99cents, if people dont want to pay what I want then it is what it is. I dont care what buyers think is correct or incorrect. If its not right in their opinion they do not have to buy it. It has also been my experience that the most critical "buyers" are not buyers at all as they could not afford it anyway. I sure I sound like an asshole but Im really not, I just dont give credence to self proclaimed historians or jealous collectors that dont have the funds or skills to complete their collections.

[vmf214]

You assume to much. I have never built anything I had to sell. I have a very comfortable life. I enjoy building, I dont enjoy the problem that my habit produces by cluttering my home and guest house with models. So when I finish one I put it up for auction, if it sells great, if not I store it. Notice I dont start to many at .99cents, if people dont want to pay what I want then it is what it is. I dont care what buyers think is correct or incorrect. If its not right in their opinion they do not have to buy it. It has also been my experience that the most critical "buyers" are not buyers at all as they could not afford it anyway. I sure I sound like an asshole but Im really not,

I assume nothing. I draw conclusions from what is said, claimed, & done (or not done).

I just dont give credence to self proclaimed historians or jealous collectors that dont have the funds or skills to complete their collections.

"Self proclaimed historians". Like an "expert"? Ironic.

So basically you're saying if an item you do doesn't sell, gets criticized by someone other than the ones on your credible list it's because they are jealous of your skills or is a "critical" buyer that can't afford it anyway?

I really don't think lack of a sale is because the masses are jealous of any skills or are broke. Couldn't it be because a particular item is just not liked? Correct? etc?

I find your way of thinking interesting.

[maroasis]

Hi All,
Just joined this forum and read this thread. Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in. My buddy is the one that bought this 109. I have seen this plane and from what we can tell, it is authentic. We both have been collecting for years. I have almost every 21st Century and BBi plane made. We collect because we think they are cool and we enjoy it. I don't collect to make money even though it is nice to make a profit when you sell. Nobody knows what we have and we don't care. We are not by any measure wealthy. None of my collection will probably be sold until I die and the wife sells it all. I have only sold a few planes that I bought extras of just to by any new releases of JSI or Admiral Toy's planes.
I am sure there are many other people who collect and build models that nobody knows about, that are not on forums and remain in the "underground".
Like I said, we collect because we enjoy it, its something to do and I like the learning the history behind what the models represent.

[mikeg]

yep.

[EJS]

yep.yep.

[VMF115]

This thread is strange...

[vmf214]

This thread is strange...

Agreed.

Hopefully for the buyer the recent one is authentic, if it isn't that'd be a shame considering the price paid. If it were me, I'd be more confident had it came from Jim A. or one of his people using yet another covert ebay id. The time the seller claims to have owned it just doesn't add up, unless it was infact someone from 21st that sold it. Then again, maybe they had 2 get away from them back in the early days...

What gets me is 21st claimed only 3 were made, now 5.

[EJS]

Makes you wonder how many were made ?.
And how many Really got away from them Over the years?.
I guess stranger thing's have happened.

[tko211]

I did not mean to offend you. I am sure you are happy with your purchase and I wish you the best of luck with it.

My boss could afford to buy any car he wants with a net worth of at least 10 million dollars. He drives a Toyota. If you work hard for your money, and understand depreciation why would you buy a lambo? unless it is "look at me - look at me" and if I were that type of guy I would just get huge wheels on my car and a big gold chain and heck maybe all my teeth caped in gold.

Real rich people that see a lambo go by, thats what they see anyway, its a joke no matter how much money you have.

Anyway like I said I did not want to offend you.

Im the secret owner of the other 2 HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

While it is clear we share the same passion for 1:18 planes and customization I can see from this post we don't share a love of performance cars. - I own a design firm and a couple other smaller enterprises and while I am not anywhere near a 10 million dollar net worth I can tell you that I would absolutely love to add a Lamborghini LP560-4 to my stable. I would park it right between my Shelby Mustang and Lotus Elise. I also don't have gold teeth or gold chains nor do I drive and own cars like this purely to be looked at. Cruising a costal highway, or yellowstone national park, or one of the many road race tracks around the country is truly a unique and liberating experience. But- don't get me wrong. I welcome this post as you make an EXCELLENT point & one appropriate to this exact thread. Which is: to each his own. Your boss is totally content to drive a toyota. Me... Not so much. Sounds like he very easily could do what ever he wanted, but he places his importance and passions on something else I strongly suspect.

Owing or paying to own one of these rare 109E's is frankly no different. Some will think it's crazy, others not so much. To each his own. I salute anyone who has thrown down the cash and chased their dream, no matter what it is. Life is short and you only get one shot. I say find your passions. enjoy life. You might not be able to do it all but do a few things well and do them big! My next thing is ironically to own a Lambo in 2 years. Saving and working towards it now in fact. -but that's just me!

Welcome to the forum Jnewboy! I have seen your work on ebay many times and always thought you did excellent work! Cheers!

[Jnewboy]

Hey Thanks alot TKO and I have seen yours and you also do very good work, I really liked your Me-262 day time trainer. I liked your post on the matter and it seems that you understand exactly what was trying to say. In reguards to cars I own a 2002 Acura NSX and like it very much but am thinking about selling it and buying a Lotus much like yours, the elise or the extige, I have read that though the extige is faster ts much more load inside. I like Lotus and now that they use a reliable Toyota engine its a great buy. I like Lambos to, much more than Ferrari but I always think and compare dollar for dollar you know... I would rather have a plane.

[tko211]

As for the 21C 3 vs. 5 109E's I believe I can shed some light.
So way back when I was working with 21C and had rare opportunities to travel to the emerald city of 21C oz... I recalled sitting in a conference room and looking at what was essentially a display of 1 of everything they ever made in all scales. It was kinda like a big toy store for guys like us who are thrilled to see plastic formed into anything military. There was however a few special pieces that were stacked 2-5 deep. These items were paint masters / product samples / abandoned schemes and the like. This was where I saw for the first time the legendary yellow 23 109E. Prior to working with 21C we all heard rumor of a stray sample that made it out via a careless worker and accidentally shipped to a fan. That fan never caved to any offer to resell the plane back to 21C after it was discovered it went missing. The remaining samples were to be left under strict lock and key according to 21C staff.

I still wanted one...

I remember that there was a strict belief that only 3 were actually made. I remember counting 2 of them in the office on one of my visits / meetings. So 2 + 1 = 3 and that seemed to match all the chatter and rumor believed at that time. On that same visit I asked for 50th time if I could have 1. The answer was always no... Then I remember Jim Allen saying- DID you know there are actually 5! I said, No I count 3. and left it at that. I figured it was just some jab back at me for asking for one once again... I never thought much of it because I figured that if I had access, and Jim Allen would not let me have one then the remaining samples would never leave 21C land. So who cares if it's really 3 or 5. Only 1 is in the public hands.

Then came the end of 21C...

Several months back Jim and I were talking on the phone. at that time I had noticed that 1 of the remaining 2 were sold on ebay. Likely to generate some funds for expected All-Go development. I asked once again... could I have the last one. Jim said to me: I told you a few years ago... It's not the last one there is actually 5. and yes! I will send you 1. I wasn't sure he was serious but a week or so later mine arrived from the old 21C address.

When I called to thank Jim he mentioned that he would likely sell another soon on ebay. Sure enough he did. from what I have seen It appears to me that there is indeed actually 5. They are rare, but they are also easy enough to spot as authentic and not reproductions if you know what to look for. Some of the markings are hand painted, the rest are chinese tampo process and cannot be reproduced in any other way other than high end production by mass process machines.

To some these planes are merely samples- half finished, forgotten and rejected schemes for mass production. It's not nearly the best example of a 21C 109E.

For others, its a holy grail. A true collectible. Threads like these keep them alive and continue to propel the mystique surrounding them. They will not soon be forgotten and may continue to raise in value for those that will see and share in it.

I am neither. I was lucky enough to have been a fan just like the rest of us, who was fortunate enough to have worked with one foot in both the fan pool and the 21C pool. I was invited to New York Toy fair, Comic Con, I got to work with movie studios to design custom packages, I know that at one point art work that my firm designed was shown and approved by President George Bush Sr. for the Avenger that he flew but sadly wasn't produced before things came apart. My 109E is my war trophy. I was there during it's brightest days. It thrilled and honored me to be in the position to report weekly updates. I made many friends- here on the forum, and at 21C.
Creatively speaking, 21C was very rewarding to work with coming to the studio to work on box art, web updates, and strategy discussions were very exciting. Great times and great memories... I think about them and the people who worked at 21C often! -So my 109E is priceless.

For those that own theirs- enjoy them. No matter how you got them, what you paid, or how it pleases you- You deserve them!

[tko211]

Hey Thanks alot TKO and I have seen yours and you also do very good work, I really liked your Me-262 day time trainer. I liked your post on the matter and it seems that you understand exactly what was trying to say. In reguards to cars I own a 2002 Acura NSX and like it very much but am thinking about selling it and buying a Lotus much like yours, the elise or the extige, I have read that though the extige is faster ts much more load inside. I like Lotus and now that they use a reliable Toyota engine its a great buy. I like Lambos to, much more than Ferrari but I always think and compare dollar for dollar you know... I would rather have a plane.

Well if you own a 2002 NSX then perhaps you do understand the passion of performance cars! NSX = AWESOME car. Wanted one very badly for a while. The Elise is fun roadster. It's pretty easy to drive, reliable, affordable. I chose the Elise because at the time it was the right car = right price, right color, right options, and I couldn't say no once I drove it. Top Gear had it right when they said "an afternoon in a Lotus will almost ruin you for any other sportscar". It's just really a drivers car. Very rewarding... It actually makes me a better driver when I do track it. Don't sneeze when you drive one in traffic though it will change a lane! - sorry everyone. I do know know this is a military collectors forum. I promise to stop talking cars!

I do have some new custom pics to share tomorrow. I have 2 F-86's finished finally.

[EJS]

was there a scott allen back in the day? At 21st century toys.
Or was it always Jim?.

[vmf214]

was there a scott allen back in the day? At 21st century toys.
Or was it always Jim?.

Yup, co-founder. If that's your seller then it's the real deal.

[EJS]

So is this no 4. or no 5.? Or is no 5. still out there? ?
I guess I shouldn't Throw out the shipping box with the return lable on it. Ha Ha.
Why Did Thay make five of them??.

[vmf214]

So is this no 4. or no 5.? Or is no 5. still out there? ?
I guess I shouldn't Throw out the shipping box with the return lable on it. Ha Ha.
Why Did Thay make five of them??.

Your's is no.5. They are now all accounted for. If you bought yours from Scott I'd say he'd be the one to ask on why they made 5.

1- ebay Apr 2005 $560 bought from guy that 21st sent to by mistake
2- ebay Oct 2009 $1824 seller chadburdock (21st used id)
3- ebay May 2010 $900 approx. seller marshall1146 (another 21st used id)
4- given to tko not sure when
5- ebay Dec 2010 $1064 seller usarules (apparantly another 21st used id)

When I refer to 21st used id I mean it as just that. May not be officially "theirs" per'say but they used them to peddle some of their gear.

My opinion had the last 2 covert listings been a little more in the open & had the facts listed they'd likely brought more. No.2 was before the PWP repros so it brought a fortune, 3 & 5 were after which might explain why they brought considerably less.

[EJS]

Thank's for the info everybody.