Wondering about AllGo's Passion Wagon

[NWarty]

I get Historic Aviation in the mail. My guess is H.A. is the type of outfit that All-Go is looking for in terms of etailers and business. Are people going to open up H.A. next issue and say "$100 for a P-51, well, why is this Zero, Corsair and Hellcat over here on this page for $60 and it's the same scale? Why is this Stuka, Corsair and P-38 $20 less over here?"

Maybe Joe-Average-Historic-Aviation-Reader then decides to do some research prior to committing to buying the "Passion Wagon" and sees other P-51's on ebay for half the price. Then he stumbles across places like SSHQ.

[Jay]

Are people going to open up H.A. next issue and say "$100 for a P-51, well, why is this Zero, Corsair and Hellcat over here on this page for $60 and it's the same scale?"

....but were the production run numbers the same? It's more expensive (in manufacturing) to build 500 of something then 1000 of the same thing.

[NWarty]

Agreed. But the molds and tooling already exist. Pump in some liquid plastic and voila! The difficult and expensive piece is already done for All-Go.

[VMF115]

Also don't forget shipping cost from China and inflation.. It also cost more to ship less in those container cargo ships....Jason From AT had a few post about that.

I think this is one time if you don't support All go on this endeavorer then seeing the KT or anything else will will never materializes.
its a do or die situation...besides the UN PC nature of the Passion P-51 should make it a collectors piece.

And I know the mold is old and there aren't any real new features on it, but it is
a starting point.

[VMF115]

BTW I know the real reason why it cost soooo much more.....

It has Boobies on it....

[Jay]

Boobies....tee hee hee!

[tko211]

Yup it really is the ultimate catch 22! They fully understand and agree with us that new tooling is needed for all new products.. It's just the timing of the situation and the management of cash flow.

I think that if the P-47 or spit was an option that is what they would have done instead... I would have had to agree. But you know the pin-up P-51 is an interesting idea at least...

As for price- That's another unfortunate reality that we are going to face in this market. Even back in 2006 WM demand to keep sale price at 39.99 was EXTREMELY narrow. Anytime the planes sold for less on clearance it HURT! = negative profit position! So, those days are GONE GONE GONE and will likely never be seen again. Since 2006 - 2007 the production costs in China have nearly doubled so... It's really easy to see how these massive planes become 200-300 bucks! Honestly if All Go released an A-10 today it would be 300 bucks for sure! BUT- I would still get one IF the paint is good and the parts have been tested properly for weak parts.

It's becoming a niche market for sure...
So- KIT form! GREAT idea in my opinion. But that's easy for me to say being a custom painter with lot's o tricks up my sleeve. But I do agree that regardless I see a pathway for kits as well. At least as a plan to help bleed off tooling costs sooner.

[tko211]

Totally not taken wrong! I totally understand the concerns for the P-51. It took me weeks of understanding to get the full picture from AllGo and then I realized it was the play they had to make. I also agree that 100 bucks is no small bones for planes that we used to pay 39 for... I totally understand, as I am a front line collector too.

Most folks don't have the unique vantage point that my position has provided me, I still don't get to see it all. But it's a little different when you see some of the mechanics and costs involved. Then the strategy isn't always as we would see it as well... So make no mistake I am a fan first and try hard to be a useful ambassador on the side!

Bottom line is that I TOTALLY see where we fans are coming from... I try to bring that understanding to 21C and now AllGo! That's my role as I see it.

I didn't mean anything (too) negative by my last post TKO and apologize if it was taken as such. I have been into 1/18th since day one and even in the WM days at $39 or whatever a pop, knew that that was waaaay cheap.
These days honestly I have no problem at $100 each because I feel that is fair and especially since new releases may only come out once or twice a year.
I seriously hope AllGo, JSI and anybody else continues to produce the scale, but to get sales it has to be something new and desirable IMO.
The thing with 18th scale is there's nice detail, impressive size and it's unique that's why I like it.

Didn't mean to add fuel to the fire.

[mountian-man]

It's really easy to see how these massive planes become 200-300 bucks! Honestly if All Go released an A-10 today it would be 300 bucks for sure!

Well, so much for the $89.99 F-4....lol

When Allgo starts releasing massive planes maybe we'll stomach the price increase...?

JSI delivered an F-14 with full ordinance for around $200, which for even the diehard collector was a big price tag. I hope Allgo doesn't look toward customs and e-bay as indicators in pricing.

JSI might be lacking in costumer service but they've managed to keep the price at a reasonable level... (along with bbi despite the lapse in new releases.)

$60-70 dollars for WW2 fighters is not $39.99.
It's also not $99.99

Even back in 2006 WM demand to keep sale price at 39.99 was EXTREMELY narrow.

If the price of these models increases 150% every four years, I think it's safe to say we are all out of the game by 2014. The price may have been narrow, but by all accounts it was the partnership with WM and wide exposure to a large costumer base that made 21st century and allowed for so much variety in product. I know that the reality of the market is much different now; however the more of a niche the scale becomes the less product we'll see...

HPH is a 1:18 scale manufacturer that operates in a niche market. How many of us type in on this forum to talk about the new model that just came to our doorstep from HPH?

What made 21st Century very special, and what I am hoping Allgo will try and preserve, is that they managed to bring a complex product to a large and diverse consumer base at a reasonable price.


On a positive note, I am excited to hear that Allgo still has the Avenger molds!

[tko211]

The JSI F-14's sell for 220 -240... The amount of plastic to make the A-10 would be about the same as the F-14. But there are about 3 times as many pieces that have to made just for the weapons and external loadout. Also, I pretty sure that JSI can't continue to invest in large planes for the 220-240 range. So yeah I fully expect 300 price points in the future. Obviously, the repaints and customs are not a fair measure of what masses will pay or can pay.

All that said, I agree that 2014 might be optimistic in terms of when things might end for our 1:18 hobby IT could actually be lots sooner! It's super tough to make the math work and put 1:18 projects and corporations in the black these days.

On the Avenger note, we might just see the George Bush scheme some day as a repaint. I would welcome one but I think I would hope to see it after some new stuff. -fingers crossed!

[King O' Fools]

So if we're lucky the Most Anticipated Release of 2006 could become the Most Anticipated Release of 2016? Not bad. Perhaps they can release the darn thing BEFORE Mr. Bush kicks the bucket? And while All-Go is at it, maybe they can borrow another page from the 21st Century playbook and release the least popular paint scheme first... Because they apparently believe they already have a captive market of non-discriminating collectors that will pay $300+ for any 1/18 scale model thrown at them. Some business model. The worst part? They may be right.

PS: If you think this price spike is related to rising porduction costs, I haz a nice lil' property for sale that might interest you, at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington DC.

[Airacobra]

$300 price points? No offense but good luck with that. If I could afford $300 a pop for 1/18 scale planes I would buy Skyworks kits and build them myself. How did we go from $50 to $300 in the span of 5 years? If this is the direction the 1/18 hobby is heading, I am going back to building 1/32 scale models. They may be smaller, but they are plentiful and there is a ton of options. Hasegawa here I come.

[aferguson]

i can forsee 1/18 continuing for a long time, but only for smaller subjects, like wwii fighters, tanks, figures etc. The larger planes are just getting too expensive too quickly. And they're just not good enough to justify a higher price point, in my view.

The Tomcat was nicely done, but has lots of things i don't like about plus the idiot spots. I got it for a decent price. If i'd paid $100 more for it, well i wouldn't have paid $100 more for it because it was just at the limit of what i was willing to pay as it is.

There are lots of reasons why prices for our 1/18 toys have spiked so much, but higher production costs in China is not one of them.....well not a siginificant one. If it were the prices of virtually everything we buy would have gone up by as much as 1/18 planes have. But they haven't.

Anyway, for larger stuff i will be contented with my r/c planes. They're getting better in quality all the time and variety is growing faster than i can afford to keep up with.

[VMF115]

If the US debt does not get under control in the coming years, I do see hyperinflation putting a nail in the coffin on this hobby...Lets just hope we have regular Inflation to worry about.

[coreystinson]

I know that All-Go would rather build up a totally new plane (and they plan to). as opposed to launching another P-51D but it's what has to be done. The strategy is not so unfamiliar. Look at JSI- they had to (steal) 21C tooling to produce the following: Corsair, Stuka, P-38, & Panther all before the BBI model F-14 came around! Nobody found fault with that strategy!

You claim that JSI's tooling is stolen from 21st Century, but how do you know that this is true? Is that just what you were told? Is there proof somewhere? Since 21st Century went under, it is reasonable to conclude that they owed people money, probably most of them manufacturers in China. Who is to say that tooling wasn't seized to satisfy debts that would have otherwise went unpaid? Obviously I have no proof of this theory either, but circumstances would certainly support it.

[tko211]

I know that All-Go would rather build up a totally new plane (and they plan to). as opposed to launching another P-51D but it's what has to be done. The strategy is not so unfamiliar. Look at JSI- they had to (steal) 21C tooling to produce the following: Corsair, Stuka, P-38, & Panther all before the BBI model F-14 came around! Nobody found fault with that strategy!

You claim that JSI's tooling is stolen from 21st Century, but how do you know that this is true? Is that just what you were told? Is there proof somewhere? Since 21st Century went under, it is reasonable to conclude that they owed people money, probably most of them manufacturers in China. Who is to say that tooling wasn't seized to satisfy debts that would have otherwise went unpaid? Obviously I have no proof of this theory either, but circumstances would certainly support it.

The term "stolen" is indeed intended as what I have been told and as the situation was explained to me. I don't have nor have I asked for any proof as it's not my place... That said, typically when company goes under or is sold the assets / debts become the property of the new company. So not knowing all the details involved and exactly who is right... It's possible that the molds are being used without proper legal authorization. And that was how it was explained to me. I have also been told that they intend to legally take the molds back...

More the point was simply saying that JSI has been able to produce all the aircraft and tanks in the line-up because tooling already was in place. This includes the F-14 which was a BBI project.

[iflabs]

Well, at least JSI has been able to deliver the goods--albeit with minor imperfections--which cannot be said for others.

[Dauntless]

BBI hasn't gone out of business, so I assume the Tomcat was some sort of arrangement without a hostile seizing of the mold/ asset by JSI.

So, is the Passion Wagon to have a painted on girl or is it a decal?
Or did I miss that in another tread?

Ya know some think this is a superior P-51D tooling than the BBI, I tend to agree.
The only totally OD green one too in this mold with a nekkid girl, so it does have a lot going for it.

[fightin]

This includes the F-14 which was a BBI project.

So the Tomcat is originally from BBI?

[coreystinson]

That said, typically when company goes under or is sold the assets / debts become the property of the new company.

That is not my experience. A corporate disollution and bankruptcy proceeding would generally protect the principals from any further liability unless they were engaging in illegal activity - that's the whole point of forming a corporate entity in the first place.

This includes the F-14 which was a BBI project.

Presumably that was done with permission, otherwise a large Chinese company like BBI could stomp all over a smaller company in their own backyard.

[456THBG]

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
Now BadCat website says delivery of Passion Wagon delayed to July!
TKO, any insight?

[exether_mega]

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
Now BadCat website says delivery of Passion Wagon delayed to July!
TKO, any insight?

doesn't smell good for the KT

phil

[NWarty]

Heck, isn't anything that's slated to come out inevitably delayed???

[hworth18]

That said, typically when company goes under or is sold the assets / debts become the property of the new company.

That is not my experience. A corporate disollution and bankruptcy proceeding would generally protect the principals from any further liability unless they were engaging in illegal activity - that's the whole point of forming a corporate entity in the first place.

Yes, but I doubt an American Bankruptcy holds water in China. No doubt that JSI seized the molds for repayment and now that 21st has revived under another name, they want their stuff back. I don't think Allgo/21st will have much luck legally unless JSI just decides that they don't want to make 1/18 stuff anymore. And that seems unlikely...

I wish the best for Allgo and I hope they succeed, can't have too many players in the 1/18-1/32 hobby.

[supersonicfifi]

By seeing this picture i really guess if they made the alteration to 21st CT model by cutting the fence near the tail to represent the early D model (to gain more stability they put a little extension on top of the P51D after the - 25 series if i am right)


here is a good study of the differences between P51D variants