SCUTTLE BUTT!

[Ta-152]

Eh, whatever it is i know i trust my Bbi to survive a hard landing far more than i than i do my 21st stuff.

It also taught me not to overpay for these things.

[coreystinson]

I specifically remember the choppers being in shoddy motorworks boxes that seemed, if possible, even cheaper and less well designed.

Oh yes, you hated those cheap boxes, but also would have been the first to complain had they packed them in nicer boxes but correspondingly raised the retail price!

[tmanthegreat]

I agree with Jesse on the relation between the boxes and QC issues. 21c boxes looked great, but did not hold up well over time and had the potential to get easily damaged when mishandled. For example, I saw a number of defective 21c Avengers that had broken parts because the pieces were too large and heavy for the manner in which they were tied in.

BBI had a decent solution in that they used several times the amount of plastic ties and tightly secured the pieces in place. 21c would have only 3-4 on a large fuselage section, for example. Had 21c gone with enclosed boxes and better packing (rather like their P-38 box) there would probably have been fewer QC issues with some of the products.

I think JSI ultimately got the packaging right with the form-fitting foam they used for the F-14. They just botched the job by sticking in a bunch of defective aircraft parts that they somehow failed to catch.

[Shin Densetsu]

Eh, whatever it is i know i trust my Bbi to survive a hard landing far more than i than i do my 21st stuff.

It also taught me not to overpay for these things.

Same here. There is definitely a difference in the feel of the plastic used on the Cobra compared to BBI's Apache/Kiowa, et al. BBI's products must have been a higher grade of ABS or something.

[Jesse James]

I specifically remember the choppers being in shoddy motorworks boxes that seemed, if possible, even cheaper and less well designed.

Oh yes, you hated those cheap boxes, but also would have been the first to complain had they packed them in nicer boxes but correspondingly raised the retail price!

You know what they say when you "assume" I guess...

Actually I didn't "hate" those boxes though, ironically... I'm just saying what they were since someone was asking a question pertinent to that, and why Cobras were often seen with some dings. I bought a few broken items from 21st in both box types and just fixed them because I wanted the item more than I cared about something being broken. I never bought the Cobras at the time because they weren't my thing, even on clearance, though I was tempted a couple times... But here is why your reply to my post doesn't make a lot of sense as I see it...

At the time, the Motorworks boxes were coming out with stuff made by the same company and being sold in the same price-range as things in the "21st Century Toys" regular packaging (of the same shape/design), which was a bit sturdier... The Motorworks packaging was just flimsier all around, even though it was essentially the same style and price. So why would you expect to pay more for a better Motorworks package then, if they improved it? A better package was available and in use!

Now, that said, then yes I would be annoyed if I was asked to pay more for a supposed sturdier Motorworks package back then, when at the same time a similar item, in similar packaging, with the same price, from basically the same company (more or less) was being sold for the original lower price(s)... Why not? I'd also think as a "dealer" you'd be interested in avoiding all the broken stuff coming in too if there was a better package available for the same price like there was, and doubt you'd want to pay more for it.

Of course maybe online sites could've negotiated for the sturdier packaging and charged more for it then as a superior online exclusive of some sort? The simple point is that the same packaging had been done better without it affecting price.

But regardless, yes that would've been a real punch in the wallet back then since you could get the same or similar toys at that time, but in sturdy (or at least more sturdy than Motorworks) packaging, from the same company, for the same price. Maybe they could've saved money and even lowered the price by going with either a much smaller window (only one side instead of two?), or gone to a windowless packaging which is cheaper to produce and sturdier? I think going to the one-window style box would've been positive for both the Motorworks and 21st style packaging, and the collectors, but that's just me.

I've never personally been much of a fan of window-packaging like 21st's used though, at least not with windows that large or plastic that thin, as it tends to crush and crack easily unless you use the really thicker plastic like other companies do. Those Cobras crushed on all sides though, it seemed (so did my Motorworks RC M113's), plus I saw a lot of the "windows" of the packaging cracked open for some reason. Even the first series at Toys R Us wasn't terribly sturdy. When a boxed item gets to a certain size I think the window-box is just not a good idea.

Tman reminded me of the Avengers too, which I saw a number of in packaging that didn't seem designed well for the planes inside it. But all those items in that last gasp of stuff at actual retail (the Hano's, quad .50 halftrack, avengers, etc.) seemed to have that shoddier packaging applied to it regardless of the name on the outside of the box. Never saw a damaged P-38 though.

[Jay]

I guess the flipside is that you can see what your getting. I remember seeing a few post here about guys sifting through boxes on the shelf so they could find one with a "flawless" paint job.

[Jesse James]

Indeed, that's the bonus... Is it worth the cost to the collectors then I guess, if the packaging is flimsy? I don't know, as I know my 88's came in unscathed, but I'd say barely (and Monkey Depot was super about packaging them too, it was really above/beyond on their part). I liked the P-38 I got in its windowless box, but I can't say I was a guy who really nitpicked paintjobs, a fingerprint smudge, or that kind of stuff with these toys (I'm also not a rivet counter either though)... To me I was happy if it was complete, pretty much, haha. My first Stuka I bought had a broken prop... I think someone broke it and returned it after they bought it, as the box had some clear tampering and wasn't crushed or anything, but the prop was clearly snapped off... but it was all there was, and at that time I really was in the "I want it all" mentality so I nabbed it and it's still looking sharp from the ceiling.

But that was ok by me, and so I took it home and fixed it... Some guys would be peeved at that though, or wouldn't buy it, and I can't blame them. It's their money they worked for, not mine, so it's sort of insanely pompous for me to think I could judge them for how they collect or what they spend... Sometimes guys got mad about a paint smear or glue mark, and that's their right. I just know I was fine with the P-38 box for sure. I was surprised that style wasn't used again for the Avenger due to the sheer size of that plane.

I know Star Wars guys who are real picky about paintjobs too though, for sure... Especially eyes, and sometimes a figure in that line's got this one flaw that's tough to find a good one of, and so that can be a pain too and you want to see what you're getting (much cheaper though, obviously). I tend to probably be a little pickier there though, so I know how the other side feels on it I think. Things like that F-14, which I don't know all the details on what's wrong with it besides the paintjob of "spots", probably irk a lot of people though. It's all in how you view things really. I can't fault those guys for feeling as they do though, as they spent the $$$ on it and it's probably irksome... at least judging by that "vote" going on with the F-14's flaws.

[fightin]

Man, that reminds me on my Daisy June. When I first saw the box, I felt like being punched in the face. I would have never thought of the model being intact.

[Rogue]

How can you compare Salma Hayek to a Warthog?

Screw the A-10, I want her in 1/18.

[mountian-man]

I wonder if there will be a new website up for the re-born 21st century around Jan. 22nd

[ram04]

Please give me a crappy box as long as it has something inside, anybody got a Spitfire in a bad box they want to get rid of?

Kind of funny complaining about packaging when there is nothing out there to buy, don't flame me, just that I would love to have had the chance to get some of the models that now are out of production, bad boxes or not

[Jay]

lol, pretty much. I have a few 1:18 Autoart cars in boxes that have fallen in windows. Even have a 1:18 Mclaren F1 which I found after a very long hunt and it arrived with a broken box window.....I was just stoked to get the car. Are we going to start talking about the various glue qualities used on the boxes next.

[margras77]

How can you compare Salma Hayek to a Warthog?

Screw the A-10, I want her in 1/18.

Hmm....Nah, I'd prefer her in 1:1 scale to be honest.

[scbvideoboy]

The down side of collecting anything is you got to know, you will miss out on something! and then spend $$$ catching up.

DH

[DocTodd]

I discovered this thread a little late and it has taken me a couple of days just to get all the way through it. It's funny the directions that it has lead.
I think it will be cool if they can keep 1:18 scale planes going no matter what the box. That being said it is definantly better if the box can protect the item.
It amazes me that the f-14 a complex and large plane can be made and sold in a crappy economy, and for some reason the A-10, also a large plane back when the hobby was smokin hot was not made.

I realize hindsight is 20:20 and I am sure noone thought people would be excitied to pay upwards of $200 for a plastic plane, but now we have evidence.
Makes me wonder if there is a government conspiracy against making the A-10. There are a lot of passionate A-10 lovers out there-not to mention it is an extremely recognized plane by many and would appeal to aviation enthusiasts as well as groundpounders.
T

[aferguson]

there are a lot of people who want a t-34 and it hasnt been made either.

A small number of passionate people does not ensure an item will sell in sufficient numbers.

[Dauntless]

There at first I was a "Mint in Mint Box" collector. I think it was a hold over from picky Star Wars collecting.

I think I missed a few that I saw where the boxes were dilapidated. Like a few P-47 Razorbacks, the Winter ME-109, and a couple others. Though I seem to remember them being in those ugly to begin with red Motorworks boxes. I retrospect I was an idiot.

Some aircraft however I never saw at retail, like the DWK, ZPA and 4Q D-Day Spitfires.
I had to pay just under $100 for the 4Q, and $150 for the ZPA at online auction. I thought those prices were high but they went even higher.

Many of the P-47's I missed, though I did find the 2 best ones IMO, Eagleston and Eileen, at Walmart and the Checkertail Razorback for less than $50 at auction. Still working on getting those last 2 OD green Razorbacks, though I got the fugly silver with red canopy Jabo.


Shoulda coulda woulda got that DWK Spit, and some more P-38's I never saw at retail, online when the gettin' was good in the early days.

[scbvideoboy]

I'm sick of hearing about A-10's it's like a broken record...no one is listening. The companies don't listen to joe blow fans...who was demanding F-14's?

A F-4 should have been done first instead of a F-14, lots of fans wanting one of those.

DH

[Birddog]

there are a lot of people who want a t-34 and it hasnt been made either.

A small number of passionate people does not ensure an item will sell in sufficient numbers.

There are more than a "small" number of people that want an A-10 in 1/18 scale. Every retailer I've talked to will attest to that.

[MCalamari]

1) I finally assembled my M115 Howitzer 1:32 21c Kit I bought on the cheap from Monkey Depot ... fun and great piece.

2) Some of my favorite 1:18 include the PAK40 and 88m ... yuppers I'm an artillery fan.

So, if we are building wish lists, I'd love to see a M115 8" Howitzer with the level of detail and articulation as we got in 1:32 and with the 1:18 artillery pieces.

I'd also like more convoy, WWII and modern, pieces that should be capable of lugging around artillery. As a kid my brother has the GI Joe APC (I think that was its name), which was a great way to assemble a team, and drive them from home base to some planter box on an op.

More trucks, more artillery!

[Birddog]

I'm sick of hearing about A-10's it's like a broken record...no one is listening. The companies don't listen to joe blow fans...who was demanding F-14's?

A F-4 should have been done first instead of a F-14, lots of fans wanting one of those.

DH

People could also say they are sick of hearing about the F-4 too, but as long as neither have been produced in 1/18 scale, both are going to have fans of each expressing their interests for them. That's part of this hobby and part of having a discussion forum such as this one.

Think about this, both subjects have had prototypes made in 1/18 scale but it seems timing and certain marketing tactics have kept manufacturers from pulling the producrtion trigger on them. That gives credibility to there being a sound market for both of these aircraft in 1/18 scale. Manufacturers have interests in producing them, hence the prototypes. As for the F-14 and the other jets JSI has proposed to produce, I don't think JSI did much research into what the majority of fans in this hobby were asking for when they made their choices. True the Su-27 maybe aimed more at foreign markets, but the F-15 over the A-10 or F-4 for a US market focus is way off in my opinion. Now I'm not saying the F-15 wouldn't be cool in 1/18 scale, but there is no way it would sell better over time or in the short term over the A-10 or F-4.

With JSI knocking down the door and producing the F-14, they and other manufacturers would be foolish not to recognize there is a market for modern jets and keep it alive. They just need to make sure the quality control is up to par so people will feel the price is justified. If 1/18 scale modern jets continue to be made, the A-10 and F-4 should be at the top of whoever is making them's list.

[Jericoeagle1]

Amen!!!

[aferguson]

i think if a survey was taken of the most desirable modern jets to be made in 1/18, the A-10 would not be at the top. In fact it would probably be several places from the top.

The A-10 is neat, don't get me wrong, but there are other more desirable modern aircraft, in my view. Personally i would get an A-10 if it were made but if it weren't i could live without it too. But there are lots of modern planes i'd prefer to an A-10 and i suspect i'm not alone.

If this weren't the case, JSI would have made the A-10, instead of the F-14. Or at the very least the A-10 would be planned....but they are planning an F-15 and Su-27.

The A-10 will happen one day, no doubt, if 1/18 modern jets continue to be produced. But in the meantime i think manufacturers like JSI feel they have bigger fish to fry.

[Jay]

I'm with aferg on that one. A10 is cool but... (sorry A10 fans!). If I was to think of high profile aircraft I would pick the F-14, F-16, F-4. Notice that the F-4 from my list has not made an appearance. I guess with the A10 it's more of a case of "so close yet so far", what with the prototype pics and stuff.

There is also maybe the "homegrown" factor. 21st was an american brand, were as JSI is more international in it's outlook ($10 avengers in wal-mart didn't help!!). I could easily imagine JSI producing an F-15 in a JASDF paint scheme, and i'm sure some guys in the states would be wondering..."why didn't they do a *insert F15 USAF base here*, those are far more popular than a JASDF scheme!"

Maybe the new 21st (or whatever they call themselves now) will dust off the A10, and yes it would be awesome.......maybe give the repaint guys some extra business too

Just my 2 cents.

[Birddog]

So all the polls and surveys that have been taken over the yeats on this forum and others as well as one retailers site haven't shown the A-10 at the top of the list (top 3)?

Ok....then I'd like for you to list the modern jets you think are in more demand....excluding the F-4.

As far as what JSI has "planned" to produce, that could easily change. All we have seen is a prototype of the F-15 and not even a prototype of the Su-27. Remember that a prototype is supposed to be the cheapest part of producing a subject in 1/18 scale. JSI's decision to produce the F-14 should go without question. It is highly recognizable world wide and would sell better than anyother choice. It's only drawback was its complexity and size.