If 21C is in bankruptcy, then at least the molds are safe as part of the bankruptcy assets. I'd be interested in knowing what molds they do have, but that is really jumping the gun....
Maybe there is some way, by somebody to produce SOMETHING.
TTT
21st Century Toys is out of business!
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Threetoughtrucks
- Officer - Brigadier General
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At least some good news.
If 21C is in bankruptcy, then at least the molds are safe as part of the bankruptcy assets. I'd be interested in knowing what molds they do have, but that is really jumping the gun....
Maybe there is some way, by somebody to produce SOMETHING.
TTT
If 21C is in bankruptcy, then at least the molds are safe as part of the bankruptcy assets. I'd be interested in knowing what molds they do have, but that is really jumping the gun....
Maybe there is some way, by somebody to produce SOMETHING.
TTT
Sometimes I am the windshield, sometimes, I am the bug.
Is House in the house...?
For what it's worth (perhaps not much), 21st hasn't shown up on this site: http://www.canb.uscourts.gov/ (apparently when they filed back in 2003, they were listed here --- that bit of information is from another toy collector site). Of course that doesn't mean they haven't ceased operations, & who knows, the molds may have been sold already...truth is, we don't know squat & 21CT isn't being forthcoming...but the patient doesn't appear to have a pulse...
C44
...Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...
...Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...
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tmanthegreat
- Officer - Brigadier General
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Don't wanna grow mold...
Or maybe Unimax...Let's hope...
C44
...Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...
...Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see...
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momaw nadon
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This really doesn't shock me. I have been waiting for the day, as they just didn't manage they company well. So much time and money was burned for nothing. All those prototype they shown us for one is a shot in the head. Second they could never keep to a time frame when they stated the release date was. The writing was on the wall for many years. I'm sat to see them go and this part of my hobby will move on, as 21st C was all I really bought. If bbi picks up the flag and runs, more power to them, but I never cared for their product. Only have their helicopters, because 21st C never made them. I hope you guys that are making kits can keep this going, as I really like this scale and I know how hard it is to break into the business. I have been working on that for 4 years now and it desn't get any easier. With how everything is now a days it is worse, but there is always hope. Maybe someday everything will be different, and the future is always in motion. I guess the ones I feel the worst about are the guys overseas and the newbees. They never had it as good as the ones that remember the old days at TRU. That really wasn't that long ago even, but it was the prime, something new almost every year in the start. Now who knows what will happen. It was fun while it lasted, but know these items will be harded to find for some of the great conversion kits that were made and for the newbee, everything will be higher priced. Odd thing is, if someone would pull it together they could make it work. Anywone have large sums of cash to invest 
. I would like to wish everyone the best and hope this board doesn't follow, even if I can't visit as often as I did.
momaw nadon
. I would like to wish everyone the best and hope this board doesn't follow, even if I can't visit as often as I did. momaw nadon
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MG-42
- Officer - Brigadier General
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* 21st. Century Toys
* I would'nt have 1/2 of what I got @ a decent price , if it were'nt for some of the great members on here.
- Mitch v MG
- Mitch v MG
" I love it , God help me ,.. I do love it so". * * * * PATTON * * * *
* In memory of ram04 - 7/15/12 *
* In memory of ram04 - 7/15/12 *
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75th Ranger
- Officer - Major
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These are sad days my friends,
many of us started in this forum back when it was the old Groundpounders....many years ago and it is very sad for me to see 21st go.
Honestly, they are a historical part of this hobby....
in all truth I'm moved by this event...our hobby suppliers and manufactures are dwindling both in 1/18 and 1/6.
RIP 21st
many of us started in this forum back when it was the old Groundpounders....many years ago and it is very sad for me to see 21st go.
Honestly, they are a historical part of this hobby....
in all truth I'm moved by this event...our hobby suppliers and manufactures are dwindling both in 1/18 and 1/6.
RIP 21st
"RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!"
HOOAH!
75th Ranger
http://community.webshots.com/user/diverman88
http://community.webshots.com/user/75thairborneranger
http://photobucket.com/albums/a360/75thRANGER/
http://community.webshots.com/user/alphascuba
HOOAH!
75th Ranger
http://community.webshots.com/user/diverman88
http://community.webshots.com/user/75thairborneranger
http://photobucket.com/albums/a360/75thRANGER/
http://community.webshots.com/user/alphascuba
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lightning2000
- Officer - Major
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Larger Scaled Items
Hi,
21st isnt out of business. I spoke with the sales manager a couple of days ago and they are indeed still "alive." Having said that, I dont know what the prognosis is for the patient at this point, considering their condition, which could change daily at this point.
In regard to larger scaled vehicles/aircraft (1:18-1:6), personally, I think these scales will always face an uphill struggle, particularly in tough economic times such as this. Big Box retailers will always be reluctant to put such large-sized boxes on their shelves when they could be moving much smaller sized items at a fraction of the price. So, without a big box retailer lending their support, its hard for the remaining retailers to move, say, a 5,000 piece production run of a King Tiger tank, MiG 21, etc., without having to reduce their cost at some point just to get rid of excess inventory.
Furthermore, when Wal-Mart decided to clearance out the MiG 15 et al. at eye-popping prices ($30 or so if memory serves correctly), then no manufacturer can make any money under those circumstances. Lets remember that this is a business. At the end of the day, the manufacturer needs to make money to remain afloat and be able to distribute their product to multiple outlets. When you place all of your eggs in one basket, then watch as the product sits on the shelves for extended periods of time, then the problem lies in the business model. Everything else, in my opinion, is extraneous...
Just my two cents...
Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net
21st isnt out of business. I spoke with the sales manager a couple of days ago and they are indeed still "alive." Having said that, I dont know what the prognosis is for the patient at this point, considering their condition, which could change daily at this point.
In regard to larger scaled vehicles/aircraft (1:18-1:6), personally, I think these scales will always face an uphill struggle, particularly in tough economic times such as this. Big Box retailers will always be reluctant to put such large-sized boxes on their shelves when they could be moving much smaller sized items at a fraction of the price. So, without a big box retailer lending their support, its hard for the remaining retailers to move, say, a 5,000 piece production run of a King Tiger tank, MiG 21, etc., without having to reduce their cost at some point just to get rid of excess inventory.
Furthermore, when Wal-Mart decided to clearance out the MiG 15 et al. at eye-popping prices ($30 or so if memory serves correctly), then no manufacturer can make any money under those circumstances. Lets remember that this is a business. At the end of the day, the manufacturer needs to make money to remain afloat and be able to distribute their product to multiple outlets. When you place all of your eggs in one basket, then watch as the product sits on the shelves for extended periods of time, then the problem lies in the business model. Everything else, in my opinion, is extraneous...
Just my two cents...
Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net
Create Your Own Battlefield in Miniature or Build Your Own Private War Museum...The Choice is Yours at The Motor Pool!
interesting to hear they are still alive. With so many reports of them being out of business and in bankruptcy, this is indeed surprising news.
My personal feelings are that for 1/18 to continue, it will have to follow the Bravo Team or even Power Team/Chap Mei model, meaning less detailed and cheaper items. Those seem to sell very well and big box retailers are willing to stock them as a result. Or, go to the other extreme of quite expensive, limited production models (which we are seeing produced from people right here on this board). Probably both will happen but i suspect in the long run the cheap, less detailed route will be what keeps this hobby afloat.
AT has managed to produce items and stay in business without a big box retailer. So they've shown it can be done, to some degree anyway. It will be interesting to see how they fair going forward.
My personal feelings are that for 1/18 to continue, it will have to follow the Bravo Team or even Power Team/Chap Mei model, meaning less detailed and cheaper items. Those seem to sell very well and big box retailers are willing to stock them as a result. Or, go to the other extreme of quite expensive, limited production models (which we are seeing produced from people right here on this board). Probably both will happen but i suspect in the long run the cheap, less detailed route will be what keeps this hobby afloat.
AT has managed to produce items and stay in business without a big box retailer. So they've shown it can be done, to some degree anyway. It will be interesting to see how they fair going forward.
i never met an airplane i didn't like...
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lightning2000
- Officer - Major
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- Location: New York City
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21st
Hello,
AFerguson, I would agree to some extent that the cheaper, less detailed 1:18 scale vehicles/aircraft have a more reasonable chance of survival, particularly if you can keep the price below $25. Once you start creeping into the $30 threshold, then you start reaching price resistance.
Part of the problem, frankly, are forums such as this that want to impose unrealistic expectations on the manufacturers and big box retailers especially under times of duress. Having been in this business, on and off, for a very long time and worn multiple hats from salesman to buyer to marketing manager, I can tell you that the store buyers still look at such a large item as a "toy" not a museum quality replica. While some may wince at this definition, its one that still exists. If you want a more realistic interpretation of a particular weapons platform, then you should visit a hobby store and look at a model or something in the smaller scale regimes. You cant expect a highly detailed 1:18 scale MiG 25 Foxbat for under $30, it just aint gonna happen no matter how much you stamp your feet and call the manufacturers all sorts of names an threaten to boycott their products. And, when you criticize a manufacturer for not applying zimmerit or coming out with a desert schemed 88 as opposed to a grey 88, that doesnt help either. You cant make everyone happy in today's world when it comes to paint schemes or field applied modifications. Thats just plain silly. On the flip side, there's no excuse for not including a machine gun on a 1:32 scale Hetzer when thats a basic component of the vehicle. The right thing to do would be to make a batch of the machine guns, then offer them on the manufacturer's web site, free-of-charge, to anyone that send in a proof-of-purchase bar code.
I'd like nothing more than to see all manufacturers thrive in today's business climate. To me, a sale is a sale, whether it be a 1:18 scale King Tiger or a 1:144 scale Deuce. That said, sometimes you have to return to basics and examine why you were a success to begin with, despite what everyone wants you to become.
Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net
AFerguson, I would agree to some extent that the cheaper, less detailed 1:18 scale vehicles/aircraft have a more reasonable chance of survival, particularly if you can keep the price below $25. Once you start creeping into the $30 threshold, then you start reaching price resistance.
Part of the problem, frankly, are forums such as this that want to impose unrealistic expectations on the manufacturers and big box retailers especially under times of duress. Having been in this business, on and off, for a very long time and worn multiple hats from salesman to buyer to marketing manager, I can tell you that the store buyers still look at such a large item as a "toy" not a museum quality replica. While some may wince at this definition, its one that still exists. If you want a more realistic interpretation of a particular weapons platform, then you should visit a hobby store and look at a model or something in the smaller scale regimes. You cant expect a highly detailed 1:18 scale MiG 25 Foxbat for under $30, it just aint gonna happen no matter how much you stamp your feet and call the manufacturers all sorts of names an threaten to boycott their products. And, when you criticize a manufacturer for not applying zimmerit or coming out with a desert schemed 88 as opposed to a grey 88, that doesnt help either. You cant make everyone happy in today's world when it comes to paint schemes or field applied modifications. Thats just plain silly. On the flip side, there's no excuse for not including a machine gun on a 1:32 scale Hetzer when thats a basic component of the vehicle. The right thing to do would be to make a batch of the machine guns, then offer them on the manufacturer's web site, free-of-charge, to anyone that send in a proof-of-purchase bar code.
I'd like nothing more than to see all manufacturers thrive in today's business climate. To me, a sale is a sale, whether it be a 1:18 scale King Tiger or a 1:144 scale Deuce. That said, sometimes you have to return to basics and examine why you were a success to begin with, despite what everyone wants you to become.
Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net
Create Your Own Battlefield in Miniature or Build Your Own Private War Museum...The Choice is Yours at The Motor Pool!
Re: 21st
I think your spot on matelightning2000 wrote:Hello,
AFerguson, I would agree to some extent that the cheaper, less detailed 1:18 scale vehicles/aircraft have a more reasonable chance of survival, particularly if you can keep the price below $25. Once you start creeping into the $30 threshold, then you start reaching price resistance.
Part of the problem, frankly, are forums such as this that want to impose unrealistic expectations on the manufacturers and big box retailers especially under times of duress. Having been in this business, on and off, for a very long time and worn multiple hats from salesman to buyer to marketing manager, I can tell you that the store buyers still look at such a large item as a "toy" not a museum quality replica. While some may wince at this definition, its one that still exists. If you want a more realistic interpretation of a particular weapons platform, then you should visit a hobby store and look at a model or something in the smaller scale regimes. You cant expect a highly detailed 1:18 scale MiG 25 Foxbat for under $30, it just aint gonna happen no matter how much you stamp your feet and call the manufacturers all sorts of names an threaten to boycott their products. And, when you criticize a manufacturer for not applying zimmerit or coming out with a desert schemed 88 as opposed to a grey 88, that doesnt help either. You cant make everyone happy in today's world when it comes to paint schemes or field applied modifications. Thats just plain silly. On the flip side, there's no excuse for not including a machine gun on a 1:32 scale Hetzer when thats a basic component of the vehicle. The right thing to do would be to make a batch of the machine guns, then offer them on the manufacturer's web site, free-of-charge, to anyone that send in a proof-of-purchase bar code.
I'd like nothing more than to see all manufacturers thrive in today's business climate. To me, a sale is a sale, whether it be a 1:18 scale King Tiger or a 1:144 scale Deuce. That said, sometimes you have to return to basics and examine why you were a success to begin with, despite what everyone wants you to become.
Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net
For the money 21 st century 1/18 are great & to buy a M.PM 1/18 Me 262. But at +- $650
well, things like zimmerit and colour schemes can be more important than just satisfying certain buyers. I could easily argue that zimmerit is as basic a component to a german tank as is a machine gun. Virtually every german tank sported zimmerit. Bravo team was able to put it on their $30 Tiger, so it shouldn't have been anymore difficult for 21c to put it on their, more expesive tiger. These details can add much to realism and hence result in more sales. Anyway, the lack of zimmerit never really bothered me, but i know there are many it does.
However, the DAK 88 is a whole different story. Going with a less popular paint scheme at a time when you were in desperate financial trouble was a huge mistake. They needed big sales and rapid sell through; which they did not get with the DAK 88. The strategy of holding off on the more popular paint schemes is a common one, and 21c has employed it many times......often to their detriment. The Atlantic avenger clogged up WM shelves, whereas a pacific scheme or even better a Bush scheme would undoubtedly have sold far better. And a few better sellers may have just been enough to save the WM deal for 21c.
So, while paint schemes may not be of high importance in some cases, there are times when they are of critical importance. If you're expecting someone to shell out a fair bit of dough for your product, then you'd better make it as appealing as possible from the start.
However, the DAK 88 is a whole different story. Going with a less popular paint scheme at a time when you were in desperate financial trouble was a huge mistake. They needed big sales and rapid sell through; which they did not get with the DAK 88. The strategy of holding off on the more popular paint schemes is a common one, and 21c has employed it many times......often to their detriment. The Atlantic avenger clogged up WM shelves, whereas a pacific scheme or even better a Bush scheme would undoubtedly have sold far better. And a few better sellers may have just been enough to save the WM deal for 21c.
So, while paint schemes may not be of high importance in some cases, there are times when they are of critical importance. If you're expecting someone to shell out a fair bit of dough for your product, then you'd better make it as appealing as possible from the start.
i never met an airplane i didn't like...
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Jay
- Officer - Lt. Colonel
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- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:19 pm
- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Good points lightning. I always get green with envy when I hear stories of people picking up multiples of models because they've been able to buy them so cheap, yet on the other hand they still moan about this being wrong or that being in the wrong colour.
Having been in the 1/18 diecast car game. I am somewhat used to paying $60US for a typical Autoart car and have accepted it as the norm. I have never seen any Autoart model sold in a big box store here in new Zealand. They are solely found in specialist hobby stores. I would've expected to see 21st models sold the same way - given a "realistic" price point ($35US+)
Maybe some people have become too used to buying models at a steal that when the price goes up they feel hard done buy and do indeed "throw their toys out of the cot".
In my opinion 21st also seems to have a personality disorder. Not knowing if it's a toy manufacturer or scale model manufacturer.
Just my 2 cents
Having been in the 1/18 diecast car game. I am somewhat used to paying $60US for a typical Autoart car and have accepted it as the norm. I have never seen any Autoart model sold in a big box store here in new Zealand. They are solely found in specialist hobby stores. I would've expected to see 21st models sold the same way - given a "realistic" price point ($35US+)
Maybe some people have become too used to buying models at a steal that when the price goes up they feel hard done buy and do indeed "throw their toys out of the cot".
In my opinion 21st also seems to have a personality disorder. Not knowing if it's a toy manufacturer or scale model manufacturer.
Just my 2 cents
"you get in a steep dive in this thing and you've got almost no maneuvarabilty at all. You couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the broad side of another barn"
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Jay
- Officer - Lt. Colonel
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- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:19 pm
- Location: Auckland, New Zealand
lol, hey boy, you betta take yall bbi outa 21st county, we dont appreciate your kind in dem these parts. Ye haw!! *shooting shotgun in the air*.
Feel free to jump in with some Kiwi Cliches
Feel free to jump in with some Kiwi Cliches
"you get in a steep dive in this thing and you've got almost no maneuvarabilty at all. You couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the broad side of another barn"
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P47faninchicago
- Sergeant
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:13 pm
Personally, I will miss 21st terribly. I collect and build other scales as well and I agree that it is laughable to think that 21st could possibly offer a model with the degree of accuracy that SOME 1/18 collectors seem to demand for the pittance that SOME of them are willing to pay(notice I say some as I certainly don't think all 1/18 collectors are delusional). For what I paid for my 21st items I thought I got a great value.
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P47faninchicago
- Sergeant
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- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:13 pm
By the way, zimmerit was only applied for lless than one year of the 6 years of war. It was first started in 12/29/43 and then it was ordered to be stopped9/9/44. So only 9 months. Zimmerit wasn't nearly as common as folks think it was. There was a rumor that began to spread that zimmerit was making the tanks more likely to burn when hit by a shell and zimmerit was pulled while the burning issue was investigated. The flamability issue with zimerit was found to be unfounded but zimmerit wasn't reappled again. It looks cool on a model but is only accurate if it was around for the that 9 month period.
it was applied from sept (some sources quote august) '43 to sept '44. Any tanks and closed-top self-propelled guns that were built within that time frame, plus all the ones already in existence, had it applied. So every german tank from sept '43 onward had zimmerit, except the small number built late in the war. Since this period of time is the real meat and potatoes of the war and the time frame that most are interested in modelling, zimmerit should be prevelent on german tracked vehicles, if they are to be representative.
Many of 21c's german tanks can technically get away without zimmerit. The grey tiger, the camo tiger (could be in that narrow period of time between the adoption of the 3 colour system in mid '43 and the application of zimmerit in sept '43. Same goes for the panzer iv's i guess. But it's not terribly representative. The panthers should all have zimmerit, especially the ambush panther, since ambush schemes were only used in the autumn of '44, prior to the abandonment of zimmerit. Tiger production stopped prior to the discontinuation of zimmerit. So all Tigers should have it except grey ones and those used at Kursk and shortly after.
As i said in my post above, it doesn't bother me much but it really is a big omition and one that Unimax with their $30 tiger was able to put on their tank.
Many of 21c's german tanks can technically get away without zimmerit. The grey tiger, the camo tiger (could be in that narrow period of time between the adoption of the 3 colour system in mid '43 and the application of zimmerit in sept '43. Same goes for the panzer iv's i guess. But it's not terribly representative. The panthers should all have zimmerit, especially the ambush panther, since ambush schemes were only used in the autumn of '44, prior to the abandonment of zimmerit. Tiger production stopped prior to the discontinuation of zimmerit. So all Tigers should have it except grey ones and those used at Kursk and shortly after.
As i said in my post above, it doesn't bother me much but it really is a big omition and one that Unimax with their $30 tiger was able to put on their tank.
i never met an airplane i didn't like...