Here was an article in the local paper (Vancouver Sun) a few days ago:
http://www3.telus.net/public/laralim/ssfig.jpg
Call of Duty action figures pulled from Virgin Records
I heard about this very briefly on the local news here in Toronto but didn't know what figures they were referring to. I figured they were dragon 1/6 figures, not Plan B 6 inchers. Hopefully, being that this is in canada and basically a local news story, the ripple through affect will have little or no impact on our hobby. Sort of reinforces why we don't see swastikas on our XD planes though, huh.
As always, two very passionate sides to this story: modern day collectors vs. the people who actually lived through the experience.
Anyway, threads like this in the past have become very heated and degenerated into flame wars, insults, racial slurs etc.
I trust that won't happen this time...
As always, two very passionate sides to this story: modern day collectors vs. the people who actually lived through the experience.
Anyway, threads like this in the past have become very heated and degenerated into flame wars, insults, racial slurs etc.
I trust that won't happen this time...
thats a tough one, on the one hand i wanna say that its a bunch of politically correct BS, and they are just toys representing historically accurate images,
while on the other hand i dont know how i would feel if a company put out toy that was modeled after someone that killed my whole family(such as from a survivors POV) or freinds or whatever, i think i would be a little pissed off,
so i can understand thier reaction to the product, but i dont agree with the company's reaction, last time i checked it was a free country and you are allowed to sell whatever you want(that isnt illegal of course) and i dont think that they marketed this toy for holocaust survivors and they stated that they arent meant for children under 13,
so like i said thats a tough situation to be in especially for a small company like plan b, i hope this type of reaction doesnt cause them to stop making accurate enemies for thier toy line.
...my 2 cents
while on the other hand i dont know how i would feel if a company put out toy that was modeled after someone that killed my whole family(such as from a survivors POV) or freinds or whatever, i think i would be a little pissed off,
so i can understand thier reaction to the product, but i dont agree with the company's reaction, last time i checked it was a free country and you are allowed to sell whatever you want(that isnt illegal of course) and i dont think that they marketed this toy for holocaust survivors and they stated that they arent meant for children under 13,
so like i said thats a tough situation to be in especially for a small company like plan b, i hope this type of reaction doesnt cause them to stop making accurate enemies for thier toy line.
...my 2 cents
...ken
Semper Fi
"if you haven't been there, shut the f@#k up"
0311
Semper Fi
"if you haven't been there, shut the f@#k up"
0311
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Mr. Football
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Political Correctness run amock.
We won the war. It's over. It's been over for nearly 60 years.
I think these are just naturally activist-minded people who are trying to make a statement or bring attention to themselves within their community. We've seen it at TRU, we'll see it again.
Let's just erase all history that offends us
We won the war. It's over. It's been over for nearly 60 years.
I think these are just naturally activist-minded people who are trying to make a statement or bring attention to themselves within their community. We've seen it at TRU, we'll see it again.
Let's just erase all history that offends us
"I like a man who grins when he fights" - Winston Churchill
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Quixote511
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History
It is difficult. I teach history and I am working with different museums on making exhibits. There are a ton of topics out there that people just don't want brought up and would rather not discuss. I find it frustrating. How can you learn from what went on if you choose to remain ignorant on the matter? Granted, I know I would harbor a great deal of resentment if I had lived through that Hell. However, I just feel that such censoring actions are antithetical to the cause of promoting a just society.
Aaron
Aaron
It's not that simple, Mr. Football, i wish it was as lord knows i am passionate about this hobby.
Reading the story says that it was an 80 year old man and a former concentration camp inmate that saw the figures and was upset by them.
These people went through something that was far, far, far, far worse than 9/11 and we've all seen the scars that has left on people and will for a long time to come...and these scars will be passed on to their children and their children's children.
Daily starvation, beatings, torture, slavery and witnessing your friends and family murdered on a regular basis would leave painful feelings that would never, ever heal. To stroll into a record store and see a toy or 'doll' that brings back all those memories would be very difficult for anyone.
I'm sure if years from now, some company came out with a set of 9/11 figures which included an AL Qaida terrorist complete with box cutter knife there would be a lot of upset people.
"it's over" doesn't really cut it. It's easy to be brave about someone else's pain.
To you and me this was an SS soldier who really had nothing to do with concentration camps (at least not directly) but to this gentleman and a lot of the the public at large, they don't make such distinctions. Given the sensitive nature of certain aspects of our hobby it is our responsibilty and in our best interests to take the feelings of such people into account and give them the respect they deserve.
Just some of my thoughts on the subject.
Reading the story says that it was an 80 year old man and a former concentration camp inmate that saw the figures and was upset by them.
These people went through something that was far, far, far, far worse than 9/11 and we've all seen the scars that has left on people and will for a long time to come...and these scars will be passed on to their children and their children's children.
Daily starvation, beatings, torture, slavery and witnessing your friends and family murdered on a regular basis would leave painful feelings that would never, ever heal. To stroll into a record store and see a toy or 'doll' that brings back all those memories would be very difficult for anyone.
I'm sure if years from now, some company came out with a set of 9/11 figures which included an AL Qaida terrorist complete with box cutter knife there would be a lot of upset people.
"it's over" doesn't really cut it. It's easy to be brave about someone else's pain.
To you and me this was an SS soldier who really had nothing to do with concentration camps (at least not directly) but to this gentleman and a lot of the the public at large, they don't make such distinctions. Given the sensitive nature of certain aspects of our hobby it is our responsibilty and in our best interests to take the feelings of such people into account and give them the respect they deserve.
Just some of my thoughts on the subject.
Sometimes things are that simple, I think.
Political correctness, over sensitivity, and the "Oprahization" of our culture have created some ridiculous things such as what we read about above.
It's easy to personalize an argument ("How would you feel if...."), but it's also a specious trick frequently employed my modern-day sophists (no one here fits that category, by the way).
Please don't misunderstand. Should we go out of our way to offend people--of course not. But once we start such things, where do they end? They don't--they just lead to more restrictions all in the name of sensitivity and feeling one's pain.
I once heard a person say something to this effect: "What if I'm offended by you're being offended? Whose "offense" should carry more weight?" Perhaps this is too simplistic. Perhaps there's no good answer to such questions.
Quixote511 summed it up best, I think. Censorship of any sort is indeed antihetical to the promotion of a just society.
In fact, it's something that the Nazis themselves did! I hate the cliche but I'll go ahead and use it anyway: two wrongs don't make a right.
Mike
Political correctness, over sensitivity, and the "Oprahization" of our culture have created some ridiculous things such as what we read about above.
It's easy to personalize an argument ("How would you feel if...."), but it's also a specious trick frequently employed my modern-day sophists (no one here fits that category, by the way).
Please don't misunderstand. Should we go out of our way to offend people--of course not. But once we start such things, where do they end? They don't--they just lead to more restrictions all in the name of sensitivity and feeling one's pain.
I once heard a person say something to this effect: "What if I'm offended by you're being offended? Whose "offense" should carry more weight?" Perhaps this is too simplistic. Perhaps there's no good answer to such questions.
Quixote511 summed it up best, I think. Censorship of any sort is indeed antihetical to the promotion of a just society.
In fact, it's something that the Nazis themselves did! I hate the cliche but I'll go ahead and use it anyway: two wrongs don't make a right.
Mike
...
I'm really not sure what to think on this one.
Being a collector I can say that I don't really care about the swastikas.
However, this forth of July there was a neo-nazi rally through our towns pancake breakfast and I was livid, but that was because of the meaning i supose.
I guess I would say it is about the goal or intent of the swastika or like model, figure etc.
I was not upset by the NVA and VC figures that 21st put out and while those figures may not be on the same level as the SS, I do think it applies.
But, again I'm a collector. I would like to know what someone like John McCain or other POW's would think....
I think the intent of making a 6 inch SS figure is not to hurt anyone, but to produce something that people who are interested in that aspect of history can buy and expand our knoledge of history and perhaps help not to repeat.
Of course some of those neo nazi guys from my town might buy them to idolize the SS, but i don't think those figures will ever make someone a neo nazi who wouldn't have already been one.
Its a hard call and i think i agree with aferg on this one. its two sided, but i don't think either side is wrong, both have their points and tehy are both right.
Do we just produce anything no matter how offensive to a minority of people... or do the majority of people suffer to help the minority feel better? I don't think that is the right question to ask really.
I also don't think there is a solution, i think it is something that will have to be compromised on. either some are sold in places like toys r us and wallyworld without the swastikas or they have the swastika and are sold in smaller private retailers.
I will ask some of my german friends if they would be offended by the U.S. figures and vehicles etc. Not that it is on the same level, but it would be interesting to know all the same.
personally a german wwii swastika does not offend me, but a neo nazi swastika does.... its a toss up for me and it is not clear cut, however i wish it was.
-mike-
Being a collector I can say that I don't really care about the swastikas.
However, this forth of July there was a neo-nazi rally through our towns pancake breakfast and I was livid, but that was because of the meaning i supose.
I guess I would say it is about the goal or intent of the swastika or like model, figure etc.
I was not upset by the NVA and VC figures that 21st put out and while those figures may not be on the same level as the SS, I do think it applies.
But, again I'm a collector. I would like to know what someone like John McCain or other POW's would think....
I think the intent of making a 6 inch SS figure is not to hurt anyone, but to produce something that people who are interested in that aspect of history can buy and expand our knoledge of history and perhaps help not to repeat.
Of course some of those neo nazi guys from my town might buy them to idolize the SS, but i don't think those figures will ever make someone a neo nazi who wouldn't have already been one.
Its a hard call and i think i agree with aferg on this one. its two sided, but i don't think either side is wrong, both have their points and tehy are both right.
Do we just produce anything no matter how offensive to a minority of people... or do the majority of people suffer to help the minority feel better? I don't think that is the right question to ask really.
I also don't think there is a solution, i think it is something that will have to be compromised on. either some are sold in places like toys r us and wallyworld without the swastikas or they have the swastika and are sold in smaller private retailers.
I will ask some of my german friends if they would be offended by the U.S. figures and vehicles etc. Not that it is on the same level, but it would be interesting to know all the same.
personally a german wwii swastika does not offend me, but a neo nazi swastika does.... its a toss up for me and it is not clear cut, however i wish it was.
-mike-
-mike-
http://community.webshots.com/user/macvsog101st
http://community.webshots.com/user/macvsog101st
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vmf214
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Well I think this time around (concerning this topic) there are some great points to both sides, however, my opinion is it is historical accuracy we're referring to. The swastika is for no better reason a reminder. As the addage goes "those that choose to ignore history are doomed to repeat it" and we're seeing it howbeit lightly. Some don't like it so they censor it, classic nazi tactic, etc. Why is it an issue now is my question...For 50+ years there's been toys, genuine military items and the like being bought and sold and I never heard of anyone being offended...It offends me to be put in a "category" by some just because I collect nazi miltaria as I'm sure I understand the history way more than the pc pushead that is pointing the finger. Yahoo and eBay went way overboard primarily to apease some pinhead lawyers in France, the simpler and more American thing to do was just delete the category for French users, yes it can be done...It's not our job to police what French citizens buy online, they need to do that themselves. They couldn't (or wouldn't) so they go to the extreme by presenting lawsuits...what nerve! Banning the stuff to everyone was plain stupid! It's an argument that the collector and historian can't win, futile to even try. In alot of ways the pc'rs emmulate what they hate. They say we don't "need" nazi collectibles same as the former "president" said noone needs an AK...this is America, it's not a matter of need or even want, it's a matter of free choice. Why would anyone need a Vette when a Metro would get you from point A to B just the same? Bottom line is cencorship is never the answer.
Bravo VMF! Well put, sir!
I, too, am for historical accuracy. Always. Without exception.
Funny, but some of the most PC folks are those who run Hollywood, and yet they are constantly reminding us of the horrors of the Nazis by producing films that deal with the issue! Did they ever stop and ask if folks might be hurt or "pained" by their cinematic efforts? No, they will say it wasn't their intention to hurt anyone--they were out merely to remind us so we will never forget what happened--and they will be let off scot-free.
Oh, well. Again, your points about "need" and censorship are right on the mark, VMF. Free choice must always remain the key.
I'm reminded of something a Supreme Court justice said a few years back (I think it was about flag burning). He said that he agreed it was an offensive act, but that in America people have the right to be offended. Interesting words (and implications), no?
Mike
I, too, am for historical accuracy. Always. Without exception.
Funny, but some of the most PC folks are those who run Hollywood, and yet they are constantly reminding us of the horrors of the Nazis by producing films that deal with the issue! Did they ever stop and ask if folks might be hurt or "pained" by their cinematic efforts? No, they will say it wasn't their intention to hurt anyone--they were out merely to remind us so we will never forget what happened--and they will be let off scot-free.
Oh, well. Again, your points about "need" and censorship are right on the mark, VMF. Free choice must always remain the key.
I'm reminded of something a Supreme Court justice said a few years back (I think it was about flag burning). He said that he agreed it was an offensive act, but that in America people have the right to be offended. Interesting words (and implications), no?
Mike
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KAMIKAZE
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I wish I had a store to sell these figures in.I would have a very prominent sign (just like the one I have in my current shop) that says: WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE! If someone has a problem with the way history has taken place,then don't buy the toys.I have a real
problem with people that wan't change history or pretend that a portion
of it is "taboo" to speak of it.That is sensorship in it's finest form.If those
same people saw my collection of toys and memoribilia they might lable
me a Nazi and I of course would have to tell them to quit acting like little
children.My grandfather's brother died fighting the Germans in Italy in
World War 2.My grandfather made it back to the U.S.He used to see me
build model airplanes(with Nazi symbols)that he said were cool.Someday when my daughter asks me what the bad guys looked liked in WW2,I don't
want to have to tell her that no pictures or examples of their flag or insignia is allowed.Next we will be burning books!As you can see I favor
historical accuracy first.There are too many things that have happened in the past that we are still unsure of what really transpired.Sorry, I just had to vent.
Mark
problem with people that wan't change history or pretend that a portion
of it is "taboo" to speak of it.That is sensorship in it's finest form.If those
same people saw my collection of toys and memoribilia they might lable
me a Nazi and I of course would have to tell them to quit acting like little
children.My grandfather's brother died fighting the Germans in Italy in
World War 2.My grandfather made it back to the U.S.He used to see me
build model airplanes(with Nazi symbols)that he said were cool.Someday when my daughter asks me what the bad guys looked liked in WW2,I don't
want to have to tell her that no pictures or examples of their flag or insignia is allowed.Next we will be burning books!As you can see I favor
historical accuracy first.There are too many things that have happened in the past that we are still unsure of what really transpired.Sorry, I just had to vent.
Mark
I'm a legend in my own mind.
Guys, Lets play it safe, Burn all of are ww2 stuf in massive piles, the German and the Allied,
Forget it all, the holocaust, the slave labor.. Forget it all every happened.
And then in our ignorant candy land dream world we will be safe from it ever happening again... Right?
Oh yeah,
The figure is inaccurate, SS parka with an army cap, they should get it right if they are going to stick their necks out. Thats why id never buy it.
Forget it all, the holocaust, the slave labor.. Forget it all every happened.
And then in our ignorant candy land dream world we will be safe from it ever happening again... Right?
Oh yeah,
The figure is inaccurate, SS parka with an army cap, they should get it right if they are going to stick their necks out. Thats why id never buy it.
-Gordak
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Magilla1973
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This insistance on historical accuracy is what keeps the collection of military toys as a fringe hobby instead of a viable ongoing market segment.
Lack of mass commercial appeal leads to small manufacturing runs that necessitate large unit costs that get passed on to the retailer and consumer - in turn limiting demand.
This isnt about burning books, it is about creating a product with enough commercial appeal that vendors wouldnt be subject to outside influence because at the end of the day, making money is the whole point for the vendor (see how many major retailers pull the new grand theft auto for example - not many - it is projected to make more money than the Titanic - protestors cries will go unheaded because the retailer wants a piece of action).
If you want historical accuracy, be prepared to spend $25 per fig because that is what the manufacturer is going to have to charge to break even as demand is not there.
Lack of mass commercial appeal leads to small manufacturing runs that necessitate large unit costs that get passed on to the retailer and consumer - in turn limiting demand.
This isnt about burning books, it is about creating a product with enough commercial appeal that vendors wouldnt be subject to outside influence because at the end of the day, making money is the whole point for the vendor (see how many major retailers pull the new grand theft auto for example - not many - it is projected to make more money than the Titanic - protestors cries will go unheaded because the retailer wants a piece of action).
If you want historical accuracy, be prepared to spend $25 per fig because that is what the manufacturer is going to have to charge to break even as demand is not there.