ROY Sutherland gone from 21st

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:52 am

I agree, as many toy companies hire out more on a per-job-basis their sculpting work these days. Even the big places (Mattel, Hasbro, Ban Dai, etc.) are going that route as it's just cheaper than keeping in-house around and sculptors seem to do better on that deal as well I think.

I hope 21st hangs in there but ultimately I knew their "exclusivity" with WM was going to bite them in the rear at some point. WM's a terrible company to deal with if you're a manufacturer. Even Hasbro laments WM... Imagine being small without the resources backing you then, and being exclusive for some time with WM? THat must've sucked hard.

Panther F · Post by **Panther F** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:04 am

exether_mega wrote:That's a sad news. And the future of our hobby seems to be suddenly darker

phil

Hobby?

Collecting is more the correct term. Buying pre-painted/pre-built models, stamps and tea cups is collecting.

Building and painting models is a hobby!

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:12 am

What bothers me is, will the level of detail drop to the pre Roy at 21st?

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:02 pm

VMF115 wrote:What bothers me is, will the level of detail drop to the pre Roy at 21st?

Time to re-releae the S1-style P-51 with those fat wings and lovely rivets

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:10 pm

And don't forget the terrible landing gear Tman.

immeww2 · Post by **immeww2** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:56 pm

I'll take those S1 versions over nothing at all though.

digger · Post by **digger** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:12 pm

Bad day for the community. 21C in trouble is bad news for all of us, no matter how you spin it. Whatever the reason for their trouble, they have given us more than all the other players combined and we are at a loss.

As for Roy, great guy and very talented so I wish him the best though I am sure he doesn't need wishes.

Light.Inf.Scout · Post by **Light.Inf.Scout** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:56 pm

Agreed Digger. 21C got me back into the hobby after years of absence. I love the vast majority of their stuff and will always be a loyal fan. I hope they can pull through like they did a few years ago.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:03 pm

Yes the initial Target offering was a test to only a portion of the stores in the roster. In my area for example: only 2 of the 7 stores got them. I think they are going well though from what little I have heard. Limiting schemes and unique box art was demanded by Target and that may continue. So, if you see something you like, get it. It might be your only chance.

At this point the future is just about anyones guess. I am keeping an open mind because 21C can do just about anything. I stopped trying to guess with them a LONG time ago. They seem to always have something up a sleeve.

Personally- I think Target is going to be the X factor here. That single factor could change the picture dramatically for better or worse.

Thanks to all my friends here on the forum who have PM'd me and expressed concern for my absence as well as hopes for me and my family. My daughter got to ride in an ambulance a couple weeks ago and then spend 4 days in the childrens hospital for breathing issues. She was on oxygen for most of that time waiting for steroids shots to kick in and fix a super bad viral cold she had. But all is well and no permanent damage (other than my bank account) That was one expensive week!) LOL Anyway, thanks again to everyone for your thoughts. We are all good now and my bank account is obviously not the primary concern. I would spend it again and again and again for her to be healthy!

Now I am just going to cross my fingers for that darn KT and 88! I don't even want to tell you what was in store for figures... it would make you cry!

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:11 pm

Sorry to here about your daughter I also had a run in with a nasty viral cold a few weeks ago.
I hope she is feeling better.

Zach will we never see those figs?

Light.Inf.Scout · Post by **Light.Inf.Scout** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:16 pm

Yeah TKO - glad your daughter is better and the family is back to normal.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:32 pm

tko211 wrote: Now I am just going to cross my fingers for that darn KT and 88! I don't even want to tell you what was in store for figures... it would make you cry!

Please tell us.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:42 pm

tko211 wrote:Yes the initial Target offering was a test to only a portion of the stores in the roster. In my area for example: only 2 of the 7 stores got them. I think they are going well though from what little I have heard. Limiting schemes and unique box art was demanded by Target and that may continue. So, if you see something you like, get it. It might be your only chance.

At least you got them! I am actually very annoyed with Target at the moment concerning the 21c products as none of the six stores in my area (8 if you count two that are 40 & 50 miles away) ever got the items. They are not even in the computers. Never mind the fact that in far more remote and less economically viable cities elsewhere in the country got tons of these items at multiple stores. One store in each city or urban area of over 1/2 million people should have gotten the items instead of this skipping over entire sections of the country. If this is goinig to be the continued case, 21c can fold for all I care as it means I won't have to chase down their products.

Sorry, but I just had to vent that for the nth time. I would certainly get more new 21c items if they could just be made easily available instead of always going to the same areas of the country and no where else...

Threetoughtrucks · Post by **Threetoughtrucks** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:12 pm

As has been said,

if you see something, buy it, you might not get another chance.

I would interpret that as....... if the KT and/or the 88 shows up anywhere, at any price, not only grab it up and grab up more than one, even at a price of $100. As an investment in future possibilities of no more more 21C decent toys and if they model is a quick sell out, maybe somebody at 21C might realize 1/18 has a future.

Think I'm kidding,.... 1/6 Scout Cars and CC's sat on shelves at TRU gathering dust and now they command high prices, up to a routine $500 price for a Scout Car, clearanced out at $70 and CC's clearanced at $50.

There's gold in them there models, 1/18 21C can follow suit.

TTT

lightning2000 · Post by **lightning2000** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:14 pm

Hello All,
Just my two cents here. While I dont know any of the particulars for Roy's leaving 21st, an event like this could actually be good for the community. If, for example, the marketing department at this manufacturer was hamstrung by budgetary constraints, as some have alleged, this could easily prevent them from bringing product to market in a timely fashion. If a person of Roy's caliber was able to offer his services to a myriad of manufacturers, this could conceivably hasten the release of several of his pet projects, as companies then bid for his services. So, although the first manufacturer may not have the resources to bring a particular project to market, another manufacturer might not face the same financial limitations and offer the necessary funds to get things going.

Of course, self-employment isnt for everyone, particularly if you need benefits or job security. So it could very well be a situation where he's looking for gainful employment instead of bidding up his relative worth in the business sector. Lots to consider and lots more we dont know.

Lightning2000
www.themotorpool.net

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:28 pm

Threetoughtrucks wrote:Think I'm kidding,.... 1/6 Scout Cars and CC's sat on shelves at TRU gathering dust and now they command high prices, up to a routine $500 price for a Scout Car, clearanced out at $70 and CC's clearanced at $50.

Yes, the XD Spitfire, AH-1 Supercobra, and Hueys, among other aircraft, fall into that category as well. Then 21c had to hold a contest to clear out the shelves of the FW-190Ds and now they command some of the higher prices for the 1:18 planes.

I've been taking advantage of the recent WM discounts for that very reason. Some of the pieces may not be worth anything in the short run, but long term when they have not been on the market for a few years and new collectors want them...

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:34 pm

tmanthegreat wrote:
Threetoughtrucks wrote:Think I'm kidding,.... 1/6 Scout Cars and CC's sat on shelves at TRU gathering dust and now they command high prices, up to a routine $500 price for a Scout Car, clearanced out at $70 and CC's clearanced at $50.
Yes, the XD Spitfire, AH-1 Supercobra, and Hueys, among other aircraft, fall into that category as well. Then 21c had to hold a contest to clear out the shelves of the FW-190Ds and now they command some of the higher prices for the 1:18 planes.

I've been taking advantage of the recent WM discounts for that very reason. Some of the pieces may not be worth anything in the short run, but long term when they have not been on the market for a few years and new collectors want them...

I have stocked up too but can't help but to think we would do better in mutual funds. Well, maybe not after the last year. There is always real estate...

I wonder what Jason from AT has to say?

75th Ranger · Post by **75th Ranger** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:55 pm

WOW!
I'm at a loss of words!!!!

Hopefully 21st will remain.....

by the way, can Roy join our forum now???????

General Blasto · Post by **General Blasto** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:58 am

I've sat in the background and read this thread and the replies that have been posted. It IS a sad thing to see and who really knows where 21st C will go from here

Hopefully it will stay. How also do we know the quality will go down ??? Perhaps Roy will stay in the background and pop in as a independant contractor to work from time to time on design issues for future projects. His not being there full time will save the company money in the long run

The issue at hand to be addressed is marketing. How can 21st sell product well and recover the monies put into making the product, thus paying off the costs of making models such as molds, etc. WM may be a good place to sell figures, but it sounds like the bigger ticket items don't do well there. Yeah, us collectors do buy some of the product, but alot seems to sit on the shelf there

TRU seems to move some product, but stores that cater to the serious modeler/collector need to be addressed. Also the E-tailers need to carry product too. One thing we all need to understand is the price on EVERYTHING has gone up, so the tanks are going to cost more, planes will cost more. This is a fact of life

If you want your models cheap, then your going to have to buy a lessor quality model, such as PTE models. They too will be going up in price too. The only way we are going to help keep 21st C going is to buy the product. Now the problem for us the consumer, 21st C has to make the product(s) more availible for us to buy. Perhaps they may consider selling some things on the web cutting out the middleman and making a few more $$$. This will help pay for the costs in China and bring some stability to the firm. Perhaps KTs and 88s could be done this way

Many of us want them and I'll put in an order today for 6 of each

THat's a small chunk of funding

As soon as these models go to pre-order phase, I'll be puttin' my order in. How about the rest of you

An idea to think about

I know it gets expensive, but do you really want the model(s) I too complained a bit about the new price of the S4 Panthers, but finally understood that if I wanted them, I'd have to pay more. That's why I have 8 of them now instead of none of them. Granted, I did sell off most of my winter Panthers and Tigers, but I will be focusing on one area and not on all seasons of battles. Oh yeah, I also sold most of my planes too, but that was mostly due to space limitations

Another thing to think about, if you don't want to pay a higher price, you could stock up on plastics and styrene and build it yourself

But then again, how much is your time worth to build them. Well I'm drifting off course a bit, but needed to stress the point that manufacturing is costing more, thus the price is more and if you want it, your going to have to pay more for it. Also if you want the manufacturer to stay in business, you need to support them by buying the product(s) All I ask for is that there be better distribution of the product, ie. Sell thru Target, E-tailers and on the web thru the 21st store on some products.

I hope too that we will see a turn around at 21st C and the 1/18th XD line expand. I refuse to go to 1/32nd and if the 1/18th dies either I will store mine or sell it and get out of the hobby all together. But one thing is for sure, I will support the scale as long as it is made(WWII only)

Da General

longrifle · Post by **longrifle** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:22 am

The hobby is dead, at least from the perspective of 21st century toys.....

I knew this was coming.....so you can pretty much count out any new stuff coming out.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:39 am

Well said General.

We should all start sending emails to BBI asking for a german 1/18 figure line

I can't wait for the next wave of FOV figures.

[CAT]CplSlade · Post by **[CAT]CplSlade** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:40 am

longrifle wrote:The hobby is dead, at least from the perspective of 21st century toys.....

I knew this was coming.....so you can pretty much count out any new stuff coming out.

Well, aren't you a Negative Nancy.

75th Ranger · Post by **75th Ranger** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:08 am

Guys,
you are always welcome to come to the DARKSIDE = 1/6 scale

immeww2 · Post by **immeww2** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:24 pm

Not me.

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:48 am

Since when is 1/6 the dark side?
i was collecting Joes when i was 12 or 45 years ago.

Small Scale Military Headquarters

ROY Sutherland gone from 21st

wow

2 Cents