ROY Sutherland gone from 21st

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:39 pm

Guys, do you think there is a link between 21st trouble and TKO long silence on the forum ?

phil

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:44 pm

This is very sad and bad news. Roy was the bright spot of 21c. He is the one that changed them from toys to collectibles. His vast knowledge and connections really spiked the quality and authenticity of their products

I think we'll still see the KT and 88, assuming they're not on the verge of collapse. They've invested alot in them and need to start recovering thier investment but the prospect for future products looks dark to me. Quality will most likely dip.

However, i think there is enough of an established audience for 1/18 items that somebody will come along and fill the void, should 21c fold up. I hope they don't, i still love their stuff. They've been through really hard times before and came through it. Let's hope they will do it again.

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:40 pm

...TKO hasn't been heard from in good while...21C shows up at KB for 3 for $9.98...now Roy's gone...

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:41 pm

holensock wrote:...TKO hasn't been heard from in good while...21C shows up at KB for 3 for $9.98...now Roy's gone...

And the clearance at WM begins.. Cheap figures, get'em while you can!

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:52 pm

Hey, I just thought of somethin...(thinking gives me a headache) but... it'd be GREAT if M & C Toys-the Power Team guys-pick up Roy!!! Wonder if they could do that and somehow keep those low prices....

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:01 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.........................

MandaloreSC · Post by **MandaloreSC** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:20 pm

holensock wrote:...TKO hasn't been heard from in good while...21C shows up at KB for 3 for $9.98...now Roy's gone...

Thats exactly what I've thougt when I've read this news. I had this very bad feeling when all this figures showed up at KB. Most of you guys were very happy about this KB news, but it's always a bad sign when all figures of a toyline went to clearence. Now with Roy gone I'm afraid XD might be dead soon. I have doubt we will ever see the KT, 88, or a new line of figures.

I'm not a military fan, I'm not a fan of all kinds of 1/18 military figures - I`m a 21st XD fan. I don't care much about 32x, ugly bbi and FoV figures, if the XD line dies I will be out of this hobby.

AlloySkull · Post by **AlloySkull** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:42 pm

I guess now is the time to stock up, one day they'll be in demand...

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:45 pm

Here's a thought......Now that Roy has left 21C, AT and BBI have no fear of 21C undercutting them in the 1/18th market. Green light for the AT F-4 maybe???? As well as the Sandy and SBD....hmmmm? Todays prices are probably going to be taller, but maybe they could do a "limited" run until they get a feel for the market. It would be nice, wouldn't it? The upswing would be if Roy is hired by AT like mentioned earlier....talk about bonus!

dandaman · Post by **dandaman** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:46 pm

AlloySkull wrote:I guess now is the time to stock up, one day they'll be in demand...

Good point. Even if the line is going on hiatus, it's going to suck trying to find figures.

Swell. Now I have to hit the WalMarts again and resume hoarding figures. Sigh...

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:02 pm

more news!

a friend in marketing told me about an hour ago that 21st C. owes lots of money in China. they had lots of stuff in works when Walmart backed out of contract. so big dept seems to be a problem for them. the Chinese will not release product till 21st comes up with cash.

dandaman · Post by **dandaman** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:06 pm

KAGNEW wrote:more news!

a friend in marketing told me about an hour ago that 21st C. owes lots of money in China. they had lots of stuff in works when Walmart backed out of contract. so big dept seems to be a problem for them. the Chinese will not release product till 21st comes up with cash.

That's just bad business sense if you ask me. Don't rely on variables (things that can change at a moment's notice) to fund your projects. It will inevitably bite you.

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:25 pm

WM is notorious for f*cking over their suppliers. I"m sure it came as a huge blow to 21c when it happened. Problem is with credit so tight in the US right now it may be pretty tough for 21c to come up with the cash needed to get them through this rough period. If they can survive the next few months they'll probably be ok.

holensock · Post by **holensock** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:50 pm

Hopefully with 21C now appearing with their 1:32 scale showing up at Target will help them a bit.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:56 pm

If 21st goes out business, i hope bbi starts making german figs & vehicles.

Maybe after the olympics will start seeing the KT & 88.

Coreyeagle48 · Post by **Coreyeagle48** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:41 pm

Greetings:

I had heard 21st has had trouble filling orders with their suppliers. If that is the case it is pretty easy to see why Walmart maybe got a little annoyed and dropped the contract. Walmart is shrewd surely, but they also realize the business side of things. If you can't supply our stores, then you aren't going to do business in our stores. Maybe Walmart stocking the same 21st items wasn't Walmart as much as it was 21st not filling the orders properly. Maybe 21st was just sending what they had.

Walmart was probably less than impressed with the people returning 21st items because they were broken or had poor quality.

I also heard that the Target deal is being dictated by Target and 21st has to do what Target tells them. Basically Target is running the show from what I heard.

As much as I hate to say this, 21st did a lot of this to themselves. False promises, poor continued quality control, etc. It's a shame but they should have learned.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:52 pm

Coreyeagle48 wrote:As much as I hate to say this, 21st did a lot of this to themselves. False promises, poor continued quality control, etc. It's a shame but they should have learned.

Well said, if wm no longer has a contract with 21st then how come the new figs are showing up at wm?? wouldn't they be showing up at tru?

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:02 pm

Stug45 wrote:Well said, if wm no longer has a contract with 21st then how come the new figs are showing up at wm?? wouldn't they be showing up at tru?

From what I've heard, there were still items in the pipeline, but once they go through, that will be the end. The new figures, 32x Spitfires, etc. were already in the works, but newer items may no longer be. Also, the Target thing was very much a test-market and Target also strongly dictated the terms. You will notice that there was nothing new in the release, just repaints. Also, the test market explains why so many of us were left in the dark.

KAGNEW wrote:more news!

a friend in marketing told me about an hour ago that 21st C. owes lots of money in China. they had lots of stuff in works when Walmart backed out of contract. so big dept seems to be a problem for them. the Chinese will not release product till 21st comes up with cash.

That was what I heard from my source also. Apparently, this has been the case for quite some time and is the reason we have not seen some highly-demanded releases such as the 1:18 Spitfire, Supercobra, and P-47 bubbletop. Their moulds are being held by the Chinese factories until 21c can cough up the cash they owe.

It is unfortunate for us, but makes sense to me. (I wouldn't sell one of my XD planes to a board member unless they had paid me first

) It would be great if 21c could financially come through, but with the way the whole Wal Mart thing went, never mind the limited appeal of the 21c products to most consumers in general, it may be a difficult process.

***

If I may ramble and speculate for a moment...

Wal Mart may have been the savior of 21c back in 2003/2004, but it was a win/loose situation. Wal Mart artificially created a demand for 21c products, ordering Avengers, halftracks, and the like by the pallet-full. The 21c marketers probably also had a say in this, hyping up the apparent demand for their products. Thus, they probably had a role in convincing Wal Mart that people would buy Stuka zu Fusses in droves. However, few of those items sold at the set price. Further, there was a high frequency of QC defects with some items and that hampered their sales potential. Thus, many items sat around and then were severely discounted. In the end, Wal Mart lost money on the XD products, as did 21c. That, combined with 21c's notorious tendency to miss and push back release dates probably also hampered the relationship. Wal Mart, after all, likes its suppliers to deliver the goods when it wants.

21c might have done better had they better targeted their customer base. I think it goes without saying that WWII airplanes, tanks and action figures have an overall limited appeal to the average consumer who is simply not familiar enough with them. Modern vehicles might have a bit more appeal, but not very much. Remember the BBI discounts at Target? In the end, it was a more limited collector base that truly had an interest in 21c's products. Yet they did not make their products easily available to that base by getting goods to the small retailers and indeed pushing those retailers around. Remember the Badcat Avenger fiasco or Theflyingmule dropping all 21c items? 21c really should have played the game like Dragon, Hobbymaster, Corgi, Unimax and others, specifically targeting the collector instead of chasing after a mass market that was not interested. Yes, it might have meant the prices were high, but it might have ensured their survivability.

So that is my two cents

Sorry to go on for such a long and winding rant, but point-in-short, Wal Mart played a major role in hurting 21c in the long run, but 21c itself was also very much at fault.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:01 pm

I know this is another rag on Wal-mart momment but I can't help myself.If wally 's distrabution would have been better. If they would have taken each model and spread them out more evenly through the nation we all would have been happy . Wal-Mart 21st and we as collectors. 30 P-51s in Boise and none in Baltimore makes for pi55 poor sales. That is why 21st is in the pickel they are in. As well as Roy being kicked out the door.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:25 pm

It's been a great 8 years in the 1/18 field. I am surprised we were able to ride this rig for such a long time.. I'm personally thankful that we have seen the releases that made it to the shelf. Roy was a great guy, and lord knows what pains he went through with the leadership at 21st. Trust me, he had to endear a lot of questionable moves on their part. It's time to reflect and enjoy what we have and to look forward to the few remaining pieces that hopefully will be made at a decent price.

-Ski

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:46 pm

Teamski wrote:It's been a great 8 years in the 1/18 field. I am surprised we were able to ride this rig for such a long time.. I'm personally thankful that we have seen the releases that made it to the shelf. Roy was a great guy, and lord knows what pains he went through with the leadership at 21st. Trust me, he had to endear a lot of questionable moves on their part. It's time to reflect and enjoy what we have and to look forward to the few remaining pieces that hopefully will be made at a decent price.

-Ski

Long time no see, ski! I think you just said the best thing so far

You're right in that we should all be thankful the ride lasted as long as it did and that we got what we did. The new collectors will be at a loss, for sure, but we got to have fun with it

momaw nadon · Post by **momaw nadon** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:51 pm

Honestly though, does this surprise anyone? 21st C did this to themselves. With all the things they put money into, that they even shown to us and then never released them. Not just repaints, but many were new items, like the A-10 Warthog, M551 Sheridan, M38 Jeep, and that list goes on. I wonder if the King Tiger and 88 with fall onto this list too.

I always wondered would we have seen everything that was planned, if it wasn't for that whole TRU PC crap back in the day that held up the line? I really don't know what happened to 21st C, as they were bring out new things frequently while at TRU. You would think they would have been able to do that at Wal-Mart too. That's the problem with big retailers is that if you can't bring out new stuff on time and often, then they loose interest in the line and cut it from the shelves.

Take a look at Hasbro, I know 21st C is not as big is Hasbro, but even they have their dry spells. Their 25th GI Joe line for one. Most major retailers in my area and everywhere I have been only have a total of 2-4 pegs for them. Hasbro is not being able to keep up with demand and most are always bare, so the store doesn't offer very much shelf space to them. And that is from a line that is selling in record numbers.

Now I have watched 21st C items in Wal-Mart move around so many time and shrink in size everytime, that you could almost foresee this happening. I don't think it is totally Wal-Marts fault ether. I just don't think 21st C could keep up with what Wal-Mart wanted. Only thing it looks like 21st C did deliver was the stuff that is hitting KB right now from Wal-Mart. After that who knows what happened to 21st C. There new items are a fact at them not being able to produce enough. Odd thing is that what did make it on the shelves in my area were gone fast, with the exception of the figures that seems to slowly move, but they did move. That is, until everything got frozen in time or something in the pass year and a half.

I feel with Roy gone, I don't think 21st C will continue on. At least in 1/18th scale stuff. I really hate to say that, because I only collect 21st C items with the exception of the helicopters from bbi. If they are gone than I don't have a place in 1/18th Military collecting any more. I guess it will be harder to find the items I still want now on top of all this.

I have been trying to pick up the slack left by 21st C for some time now, but lack of funds are holding me in a stand still at this time. I guess I'll have to try harder, as this looks to be the end of the company that started this all for us.

momaw nadon

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:06 pm

[quote="Only thing it looks like 21st C did deliver was the stuff that is hitting KB right now from Wal-Mart. After that who knows what happened to 21st C. [/quote]

Showing up at KB is never a good sign. I got most of my Matchbox models from KB at a big discount, and then Matchbox disappeared.

Roy will do OK, I think. He's too talented not too. Just can't say the same thing about 21c.

Panzer · Post by **Panzer** » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:17 am

If the Chinese are holding the molds and are not paid, don't worry, we will be seeing the products once again. They will not let the molds go to waste. We will see cheap versions of all the old stuff at Big Lots. They may have inaccurate paint and markings, but will be cheap in price.

Small Scale Military Headquarters

ROY Sutherland gone from 21st

Good point

Bad Business Sense

Stuff