Badcat Tiger I---$49.99 "special purchase"

[Panzer_M]

price is back to 80$

glad I never liked Tigers, I'm a Panzer IV and III person myself.

[GooglyDoogly]

I always swim against the current on this topic but cannot seem to stop. I see a direct correlation between our casting stones at our manufacturers and suppliers and the fact that we hear from so few of them now.

I for one would prefer less complaining and more news from the hands that feed us.

Fire at will.

I'm gonna fire at you, but only with a water gun.

Sometimes, I'm kinda boggled why some people are so...afraid of criticizing a company.

Are these company out to make money and do good business, or are they here to make friends with us?

I'm thinking they want to make money.

If it's really true that the reason why manufacturers/dealers aren't willing to talk anymore was because we are "mean" to them...then that's...too childish.

If that's true, what are they hoping to accomplish? Are they doing it to punish us?

Darth Vader: NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

And I think you got it the other way around. We consumers are the one who feeds them.

If they stop making/selling 1/18th....It's not gonna affect my life.

But if people stop buying 1/18th, then those companies will go to the toilet, so to speak.

[chunks]

I'm not aware of any stones cast against Admiral and yet he's also silent.

[aferguson]

i agree fully with the above comments. If 21c, BCT or anyone else is taking these comments personally, then they either need to seek therapy to have their self esteem bolstered, or just simply cowboy up and use the information given them to try and evoke positive changes that seem to be wanted.

If they want to shun us well......okey dokey.

I have been a die hard xd, 1/18 guy since virtually day one and i am getting pretty fed up with this hobby in many ways. One delay after another, high expectations fueled but not delivered, that childish nonsense at Toyfair '07 with undercutting AT's price on the Phantom, which has probably cost us a 1/18 F-4 and now a huge and questionable price increase. That's off the top of my head without putting any thought into it.....i know there are a lot more things that are bugging me. I can honestly say, it wouldn't bother me all that much if 21c, BBI and AT all folded up shop tomorrow. I would be disappointed, but i'd adapt. We've been living off scant releases for years now and i've learned lots of ways of enjoying this hobby and that wouldn't change if the big 3 called it quits. Besides, others would fill the gap.

So now, if i, a die hard fan, am feeling this way, how might others who partake in this hobby more casually be feeling?

I praise when praise is deserved and 21c has certainly produced some wonderful things for us to enjoy....but they need to be more in touch with their fan base, ESPECIALLY at a time like this and not take the criticism to heart.

[Jesse James]

If they stop making/selling 1/18th....It's not gonna affect my life.

AAAAAAAAAMEN to that. And this is something I "combat" daily not just around here but in Star Wars. You wanna see a lot of people with brown lips from all the butt they kiss? Hang around a Star Wars message board sometime...

In particular, check out Rebelscum's boards... Bigger doesn't mean better, especially when 80% of your people hanging around the forums constantly tell each other the most retarded of statements like, "We should be thankful they even make these toys for us!", and other nuggets of gold like that.

Thankful? Thankful that they make figures that cost me $7+ a piece? Thankful that they make a figure and release it for $20 as an exclusive only to release it again in 2 years for $7 on a basic card? Huh?

Thankful, how exactly?

I'll never, ever, ever, understand how people can possibly wrap their minds around the concept that they not just supported a company by buying its products... But now they have to tell them thanks on the way out the door too?

Do you tell a car dealer, "thanks man! I'm really glad you make this car for me to pay you $20,000.00"? Of course you don't... You actually usually treat the dealer like crap because he's trying to screw you as much as he can to make the most he can... And if you don't like it, you're free not to buy.

For me, I don't like where 1:18 armor prices are going, at least from what we've seen of online retailers. For me, I'll move onto 1:16 armor I don't already own maybe as oskitten and aferguson were giving me some good opinions on why I think the two scales will mix so long as I don't mix two scales of the same piece/type of armor. If there's no more 1:18 armor at affordable prices ($60 or less for average tanks, maybe $80 for a really big piece like a King Tiger, and no halftrack or similar for anything over $35), then hey... I'll live. And you can too! There's figures coming at least, and they're all great IMO. Indiana Jones has become a nice complimentary toy line at very fair pricing...

As a collector, I'm just content to see things as they are, even if I'm simply a little disappointed that armor is maybe going to a pricepoint I will not pay... I don't know whose fault that is by the way. I don't know if it's 21st Century Toys or Badcat Toys, or Wal-Mart, or whatever... I don't care either, as Wal-Mart, Badcat, and 21st don't cut me my paycheck every month.

Like I said, I see the thought all the time in Star Wars, that we somehow owe the company making this crap a vote of thanks. Fact is, they owe us... We make their company function because we buy it. We put food on their tables because we shop with them. We support it with the ravenous fervor only a collector can show to a toy line because he's A) old enough to go look for it, and B) old enough to have too much money to spend on it.

The day I "owe" Hasbro (or any other toy company) anything is the day I've apparantly snuck into their headquarters and stolen prototypes. Then I'll owe them whatever they cost... Till then, they owe me quality and a price combination that I find fair and reasonable, so they get my money for their stuff.

Again, no shots fired at Olifant, I get being happy about getting stuff because I was giddy when I got those new figures (the prone headsculpt guy and new DAK artillery guy) a couple weeks back. New toy huffing is a great feeling... But, you don't thank Ford for their cool Explorer, and agree to pay $10,000.00 more for it than it should cost you, just because you maybe like Ford Explorers.

[mountian-man]

I praise when praise is deserved and 21c has certainly produced some wonderful things for us to enjoy....but they need to be more in touch with their fan base, ESPECIALLY at a time like this and not take the criticism to heart.
_________________

Uh... Aferg, Matt of Badcat Toys isn't part of 21st Century Toys...

[MG-42]

* I'm fed up too. ... This has turned into a very expen$ive hobby for me. Although I have been lucky to have found a bargain from time to time , but that's it.


->>>-------> SHEESH ! ! !


* "Sometimes , I feel ,.. I don't give a &%@* , one way or the other".



Mitch v MG

[GooglyDoogly]

I praise when praise is deserved and 21c has certainly produced some wonderful things for us to enjoy....but they need to be more in touch with their fan base, ESPECIALLY at a time like this and not take the criticism to heart.
_________________

Uh... Aferg, Matt of Badcat Toys isn't part of 21st Century Toys...

Aferg is talking about the 1/18th hobby in general. Because various members have implied in the past that we are too mean sometimes, and if we don't stop, then companies will stop making 1/18th stuff to show us what's what!

[aferguson]

correct.......this thread has branched out somewhat from the original topic.

[immeww2]

Kinda shocked at BC's comments.

[olifant]

Guys, remember that it is the differences rather than the similarities that make other people intersting . Here is how I view this:

1) I vote with my dollars just like you do. Am I going to buy what I think is subpar quality IJ Russians for $7 a pop? No, I bought a few. KT for $100? Maybe one. $40 1/32 BBI Dauntless and Wildcat? You bet. Why? It is what I feel is valuable to me.

2) I don't think I am kissing anyone's butt. As I stated above, I may buy a KT but not until the price comes down or my finances improve. But you can't have it both ways when a company has to change direction. I really think that if they could 21C would be shipping KTs by the thousands to WMs across our nation at $50 each. They can't so what we are seeing at $100 is the alternative. I applaud their effort to continue to make pieces despite the changes in their vendors. Applaud, yes. Support, maybe. I still don't have what looks like a wonderful 262 nightfighter because the $70 seems steep to me and I have other things I would rather buy.

3) Criticism of 21C undercutting Admiral's Phantom and their past poor performance on meeting their commitments? Spot on, no defense offered.

4) Being too mean will keep them away? I don't doubt their toughness, just their willingness to bang their heads against the wall when each time they post it is to complaints and bitching. If I were them I wouldn't post here; it is counter-productive. These are not large companies with professional PR people, these are small, family run cottage industries.

5) I do care if 21C, AT and BBI go under. It would deprive me of my main hobby that spans many years, countless hours and thousands of dollars. Please note that I did not feel the same when Daewoo went bankrupt in the states because their cars were crap and I would never have bought one. Kinda like the PTE stuff. But I was very sad when Isuzu quit making the Trooper after being an owner for 15 years.

And please remember, my point is that I would prefer to hear what they have to say, even if much of it isn't correct and timely. Give me my 1/18 dreams.

[GooglyDoogly]

No need to explain Olifant. As long as the conversation remain civil, I think discussions like these are okay.

If I could address a couple of your points:

Point #2: My only gripe about the KT was it's very toy-like for the price they are asking. I LOVE the new-tooled Mustang. I LOVE the ME-262 fighters. To me, they are worth the price because they looked GREAT.

The KT? Eh. I guess it's okay, but not $100-okay, at least, IMHO. TKO told us that it looks more toyish compared to the newer releases is because the KT tooling is a few years old. So why didn't they release this tank a few years earlier? Oh, that's right...because we were clamoring for a Quad Trailer.

Point #4: Like a lot of people here have said, how come they couldn't take criticisms, and turn it into something productive for them? Other companies actually HIRE people to critique their products before releasing them in the market in order to make them better/look for flaws/etc. Hell, we're doing it for FREE.

But we should give 21st and other company leeway because they might be a little more sensitive?

They are grownups. They can take it. It's not like people here actually being vicious.

And to be honest, I love to hear news too, but there comes a time when I don't wanna hear stuff anymore.

Things like,

Exciting news! A new armor piece is about to be released! Stay tuned for more info on this great news!

Several weeks later with no follow up news. This caused great excitement among fans, even speculating what could it be. A Sherman derivative? Maybe a Stug!! Or maybe a Flakpanzer!!!!

Then....

QUAD TRAILER!!!.

Talk about a letdown

[chunks]

How I read all this, I could be wrong, just ask anyone, is that now, mainly, we are seeing the results of two of the three "Big 3" fighting off perceived competition by using this board for intel and misinformation. In one case very obviously so, which speaks loads about their view of us.

We're frustrated, rightly so, due to this, and voice that frustration.

Badcat and other e-tailers are in the middle with the desire to maintain their chosen livelihood.

How this will go, I have no idea to specifics. Of the patterns I see forming, none bode well. But we are talking about "TOYS". Disposable income.

We have no influence over any of this, but the ability to decide how we will spend our increasingly more worthless bucks.

[olifant]

I know I know, the quad trailer was a letdown. I think 21C was hoping to hit a pricepoint and make a few easy bucks. I can't fault them for this, but I don't have one of these things and to be honest don't see ever acquiring one at retail prices.

I recently obtained my first Panther and Tiger from a fellow board member as I didn't collect 1/18 in the golden age of WM clearance and couldn't afford the $100 each ebay price. I am very impressed, and never having bought any at $15 on clearance feel $70 each is a fair price. To each their own though.

Agreed on the communication, it would be nice to have more regular communication. I don't belong to any Hasbro forums but I like JJs description of how the Q&A sessions work. I think what is at odds is since these are such small companies they just don't have to staff to do so regularly or in such a "polished" PR manner as Hasbro.

I don't think we shouldn't criticize, but from my point of view I would be really torqued if I put my financial livelihood on the line to release a KT or a repaint of my 262 that was so terribly received. I am pretty sure that Jason at AT has his personal finances tied to the company's success in a way most of us can't fathom.

But hey, I have found that Star Wars and other 1/18 toy lines can be just as cool as the military stuff. I also agree that in the future I will probably find more enjoyment in making my own customs. Unfortunately my interests and desires far outstrip my skill.

By the way, thank you for the civil repartee.

[pokeyjtc]

Just my 2 cents on the pricing of things, especially the Badcat Tiger scenerio of late. I am just getting tired of things that start off at a high price, then drop, then get adjusted again, then go back up, blah, blah, blah. Please just price things at a fair price, don't gouge. Sell it at what you need to make a fair profit and leave the price alone. The yo-yo effect is just irritating and frustrating and makes potential customers wary of buying.

[Jesse James]

I don't think you're "kissing butt" olifant, I just think you're like I mentioned in my previous post, "enjoying what you get", which is fine... But I find it flawed to make excuses for a company (and its retailing partners) when they're clearly now not meeting, at least with this group, the "standards" we have...

You're offering a $100 King Tiger? OK, I'm open to the idea... But it damn well better have hyper detail. It must surpass the best they've done, and for me that would be the Tiger 1... Full interior for sure, a full crew would be outstanding (and cheap enough, as the mold toolings exist for tankers, so deliver a set of tankers with existing headsculpts and hats, and you'd make many happy)... Maybe a step further in some level of detail? At this point, a $100 King Tiger doesn't meet MY standards, and so I won't buy it... But as a fan, and someone who also (like yourself) gets happiness from this hobby, I'm disappointed and will voice my opinion. They suck... They suck for setting the price, and retailers suck for accepting it, and they suck as well for accepting the jacked up prices of tank repaints considering those things are almost pure profit to a company.

On the issue of the Hasbro Q&A...

I think what is at odds is since these are such small companies they just don't have to staff to do so regularly or in such a "polished" PR manner as Hasbro.

I disagree... If 21st can't answer 3 or 4 questions every other week, then I think it's time they maybe need to fold up shop. I think they're a bit bigger than a mom & pop operation, and are a real functioning company. Hasbro's Q&A is handled by the staffers for each toy line's team... In my case it's Star Wars/Indiana Jones team we talk to, and the answers are gathered by one representative from the team (who gets them from the other staffers as needed). It's every other week generally, and he is dealing with literally a couple dozen websites at least, if not more.

My suggestion is for 21st to deal with ONE site, this one, and ONE person (every site has one person, or at least they should, communicating for the Star Wars Q&A). That's pretty simple really, but if nobody with clout at 21st has enough time to answer 3 or 4 questions from here every other week, that's pretty bad.

I think they could do it, and I think someone here could handle weeding out the questions and keeping a catalogue of them. It's simple really, as you start one thread to simply ask questions (NO conversation), and you start another thread to discuss info obtained via the Q&A... There you have your conversation on it.

The format's uber simple and has worked surprisingly well for a company that has to deal with umpteen websites and umpteen very douchey people asking them at times. And if you think what's said here is bad, you should see the crap some collector sites in Star Wars have let slip through to the Hasbro team... Telling them they don't know their job, they are lying to us, they're doing this and that... It's sad that editorial muscle isn't always being flexed, or that any tool with the ability to put a website together can do so and "officially" send in 3 questions every session. Sometimes it's embarassing even for those who didn't do it.

Anyway I'm getting off-track there some, but my point is just that it's a VERY possible thing, if 21st wanted to engage in it... They're free to not answer some questions too, as Hasbro does that constantly. You have to just be smart in how you ask them to get an answer that is actually interesting. If you ask, "Will we get a new (_Insert random character here_)?", they often say they wont' tell you that yet.

I'd hope questions to 21st through here would be offered in a polite, but constructively critical manner, and would get good responses, but 21st would have to want to, and honestly I think they just don't feel like being bothered. I don't think 21st is "offended" though either, I just think they don't look upon collectors as being important enough to demand their presence here. Not to mention their presence here draws WAY too much uncontrolled attention... You can't give collectors an open thread to just converse with a 21st rep, it gets out of control and confused/chaotic quickly, and they tried that.

BBI, FOV, etc., would face the same thing if they got involved here openly... You do a controlled 4-question Q&A on a semi-routine basis though, and you tie things up neatly, quickly, and simply. It could even be more questions because, my god, it's only an every-other-week thing afterall... It's really not a big deal.

Anyway, that's me... I think they should do it because it would maintain a presence and "hope" among collectors. My first question would be,

"What's the deal on armor prices? Are we gonna see the King Tiger and 88 at Toys R Us for $60 or so, instead of the $100 we're seeing online? Many collectors are already vocalizing a back-out on the pieces at that price".

Maybe they'd respond favorably for me, and maybe they'd say that they're taking the line that direction, and that's all there is to it. At least there'd be an answer though, and we'd know if we are gonna have more or less cash to spend in the future.

[Jesse James]

Just my 2 cents on the pricing of things, especially the Badcat Tiger scenerio of late. I am just getting tired of things that start off at a high price, then drop, then get adjusted again, then go back up, blah, blah, blah. Please just price things at a fair price, don't gouge. Sell it at what you need to make a fair profit and leave the price alone. The yo-yo effect is just irritating and frustrating and makes potential customers wary of buying.

I agree with this as well...

Don't list a "MSRP" you supposedly got, and the "special" price you're willing to list it for , and then put it on sale sometime for a different price, etc.

You take the piece, you set the price to whatever you want it at, and you sell from there... If you want to do a % sale at some point, you go for it if you think it'll help, but this whole yo-yo thing is a tad lame and smacks of attempts to deceive IMO, and it's a major reason I'm tired of even looking on sites for pieces.

Like I said, they could quit making this stuff tomorrow and I'd get by... I can live fine without it. I'll miss it, but I'll live. At the price it's at now (at least online), I'm gladly going to be leaving this hobby behind except for the figures and whatever TRU maybe gets (FOV at Target too of course). I'm not gonna cry over it... Sad maybe? I guess disappointed is a better description really. Ultimately though, I'll live, and I know I did my part to buy this stuff. If online retailers go out of business, or 21st, or whoever else... Did they do it to themselves? I have to believe they did to some extent, and that's not my problem. That's just life I guess, and what happens from the decisions people make as heads of companies in the business world.

[kimtheredxd]

LOL at you GUYS! You should see how woman bitch moan and groan about shoes, tops pants almost anything important you name it prices selection or lack of etc. Puts you all to SHAME!!!!! And The owners smile give us the usual answers and we still buy from them and they still sell to use(well most still do*don't ask* We do it the the boutique and store owners faces to boot

[AlloySkull]

I'd really miss my 1:32. But as stated before, I could live without it, especially now, with money and crap like it is. I think it would be nice if the companies/e-tailers would step up and take the bullets and the flowers, and take what they get and make good from it. It's not that hard to understand that collectors like us expect some level of information at this point, and a sudden hike in price without DEFINITE explanation is unjust. Not only that, but these damn games with the F-4 and B-25 is just messed up.

We aren't slaves to you. You live, and die by our cold, hard, cash.

I love 21c, to me, they have done great in the long run. But these trip-ups, date-games, promises and broken-heart deals added up quick. To all of us, we don't know where this, or that is, and by God, we want to know.

I dare you, yes, I DARE YOU, 21st Century, BBI and Forces of Valor, step up. Tell us the truth behind the conspiracies. I dare you to bite the bullet and hear what we have to say, take it as it is, and use it for good. Childish games were done years ago. It's time to confess. Just because we don't think this or that is great, well f%@& it! Listen to us! I like what AirStrike is doing. I loved how I actually was able to meet Jason in the flesh, see the Phantom in person, and have things explained to me like no other...

21c... Where's the love, for us, for the consumer, your bread and butter?

Without me, you wouldn't have almost $1000. No big deal, right? But how much have all of us spent? What about the lurkers? Former members? Tell me, where is my investment going in your company?

You took us on a hellacious trip and now we're comin' down, and comin' down hard. Fix us up, give us what we've asked, we more than deserve it.

[STUKA]

well - badcatt can do whatever they want - it is their company....now for rogue employees ,sheesh I hope he isnt the boss ,to bash their customer over some complaints about their business practices - that is simply bad business - thats the kind of thing that gets someone fired or at least a quick kick on the shin -

Badcatt keep up the good work - maybe you can lose some more customers - come on think out of the box with your grumping.

all you board members who buy our planes can .......


hmm maybe some board members can help -

[B-29]

Well, no more time to complain-the tiger's not shown anymore on bcat. That figures, I was actaully considering buying it for $80 compared to what I've seen on ebay

[Jesse James]

I have no beef with Badcat personally. If they offer things at prices I find fair I'll buy so long as they're remaining reputable. The key is getting stuff at prices I find fair... They can sell what they want for whatever they want, and if it backfires on them that's their deal. I will repeat though that I don't respect the price fluctuating/manipulating... Set a price, don't list MSRP's with it trying to hype whatever profitable price you're selling it for, and if you want to run a % sale sometime down the road go for it if you think it'll help move something that isn't moving quickly.

I will say I tend to avoid etailers who sell select items at inflated prices because they know they can... It's not Ebay, and thus I lose some respect and do tend to avoid those stores unless they run a really good sale on something I want. There was a store years ago, out of business now I think, that sold 1:18 stuff and they'd pick out the infantry riflemen and hawk them at an inflated price because, well, they knew people wanted more of those...

It was irksome and I avoided them unless they had to put something on sale pretty hefty to move it. I think I got a couple figures there real cheap that didn't move as well.

I think etailers ought to open dialogue with 21st to GET those more in-demand figures in, in a heavier bulk. 21st has the ability to alter case-ratios if they wanted to. Feedback from the etailer that the best army builders would make a nice solid case pack would benefit everyone involved, so long as the etailer/retailer in question wasn't gouging on those items.

Anyway, that's drifting a bit from the topic, just letting it be known that Badcat's doing their thing and they're entitled to. I'd recommend not perusing the boards though if the posts here are annoying though, as it's not gonna lead to good business. Take what you read here and build it into constructive criticism that can be used to benefit the store. That's my opinion.

When I did an externship for management with J.C. Penney's, I had a leather jacket thrown at my face after the Black Friday sales week... It had obviously been worn/used and was being returned, which I refused... It hurt to have it thrown at me, and my first instinct was to beat the ever loving (poo) out of the tool that threw it at me, but I backed off and politely told him he'd have to take his coat back and leave the store, but that he wouldn't be allowed to return a used item. He ultimately left, leaving the coat behind... He was mad, nothing I could do really, but punching him out was also not the route to go and would've lead to very bad press for the company. I just had to deal, despite how truly angry I was at the time.

Any other day, I would have simply stomped a massive hole in his head, but not that day when I was the company rep.

[grockwood]

Not having seen the KT, I don't know what I am willing to pay for it. But I certainly wouldn't pay $100. for the Tiger I. Interior detail means nothing if the exterior is so wrong. The 21st Century Tiger I has more mistakes then any other release. If the KT at least looks more accurate then the Tiger I, them I will buy it. Of course a full crew would sweeten the deal.

[AlloySkull]

I have no problem with BadCat at all, got incredible things quick. It's just this price jumping confuses everyone.

My post was about the MANUFACTURERS.

Again, whom I love, I have no beef with, but there are some things that need some 'splainin'.

[chunks]

I'm good with BadCat also. They've been real good.

As for the current cost that the tiger goes for, a coupla weeks ago I gave my 21c Tiger 1 and "Leopard" FW-190 away, but also received the most that can be expected.

A friend that works at Eielson AFB mentioned that a young airman just returned from the middle east and is still adjusting to being back home, which includes getting to know his daughter that he wasn't here when she was born.

My friend wanted to know if I still have the old unbuilt ERTL KC-135 kicking around and how much I'd take for it for this airman.

We very quickly settled on $10 and I also threw in the 21c stuff to introduce him to this hobby.

About the best thing to happen I think.