1/18 Aint dead.

[tmanthegreat]

Speaking of stupid figure releases, my area hasn't yet even gotten the "over-saturation" of Platoon figures yet and is instead filled with the more pointless and redundant release of the D-Day figures with the lighter-colored uniforms and the dark-tanned skin. Every Wal Mart has tons of them, and they are not moving...

[DocTodd]

There are always shelf warmers in every release, even the Star Wars line and that appears to be what the Platoon figures are.

[dandaman]

While I agree that there are always pegwarmers in a given set, the Platoon figures are a bit of an oddity.

For example, I can go to several WalMarts in my area and if I wanted to, I could have 10 or so complete sets.

I have never been able to do that with the other 21st Century figures. I have never been able to go around to all the WalMarts on a given day and complete my D-Day set (for example).

It's just strange to me that there are so many of them. It's like 21st Century was making a gamble that these figures would be super hot sellers. Sadly, they were mistaken.

[Arclight]

I think there is another aspect to what is going on here: For a decade we have been in a state of extreme reality and detail in our media (as compared to the past at least) and our lives around us. Just think of the detail and comparative realism involved in films like Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers and all films in general. Or the impact of current events as compared to other ages? Would anyone argue the 90's were at all difficult in comparison to now? The world has been an unsteady place, more so than other times, for a decade. And I mean this in no attack or negative way. Not bias or politics behind it. It's a fact - Times are hard emotionally. Not just financially. People are tired of how hard it has been at times.

I know I'm tired. And many of us don't realize the impact of the things going on in the world. I think that there isn't so much interest at the moment in reality. Meaning: All scales. 1/32 and such may be doing better because companies can afford to produce those pieces based on size and detail. But the other pieces are too expensive for what is coming in. And it's about what is coming in - And why. And this is because it's harder and harder for people to want to experience the hardship of remembering the world isn't always easy.

Remember the best days of 1:18? Just at the end of the 90's/Early 00's. The 90's were perhaps the most bubble gum and the easiest of any decade. By the end people were screaming for reality and realism in their life. Consequence and impact. Now, I think we've had our fill for a while. And we need a break. And so the reality of all the scales and lines is... tough.

Look at things like Lego or Star Wars - They are doing great. Both based in fantasy and escapism. Or the return of Indiana Jones - Fantasy and escapism. Or the bloom of popularity in almost all professional sports. I think as a world we are all tired and need to get away a little. Detail and small replications of war... Might not do that for us. *Edit: Or look at the incredible boom in video games/Simulation. That is escapism at it's best. It's immersive and lacks reality in almost every capacity. Or the fact that this is the second golden age of cinema, the first since the end of WWII.

But that desire will come back strong soon enough. But probably not for a while. Once we get a breather from the economy, politics, war, terror, oil, healthcare, natural disasters, and scandal. We'll want to experience life in gritty detail and all scales will come back. In the mean time those companies will produce more 1:2 in order to get by because it's what they can afford.

Again, I mean this in no political way Simply an observation of how... Tired we are as people. All of us. But maybe I'm wrong. I would love to hear what others feel and think.

[olifant]

I don't think the scale is dead, but rather in flux. One thing we don't speak of here much is the weaker US dollar. Good for American manufacturers, bad for those who import here.

If the dollar loses 15% of it's value vs. the yuan, even if our toy manufacturers hold cost steady they just lost 15% of their earnings. Add in oil costs and inflation and it puts us where we are today with more expensive toys, projects on hold until they can meet price points and a slow down in new product development.

Big players like Hasbro are better placed to leverage suppliers, manufacturers and distributors to hold their costs than smaller players like 21C, Pegasus and AT. Think of the price difference between a Ford and a Ferrari; it's not just quality but also an economy of scale.

[dandaman]

Arclight,

I understand what you are getting at, but it all boils down to why you are in the hobby in the first place. I doubt that most 1/18 collectors are simply people who need a "blood and guts" fix every decade or so...they go out and purchase realistic figures to war with...figures with scowls on their faces, rifles with bayonets, and large tanks to run over people with.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I have never lost interest in military collectibles, no matter what is going on in the economy, which wars the US decides to get involved with, etc. And I'm not a "war nut". I'm actually a pacifist if you can believe that. I would never touch an actual gun. Realistic military collectibles are cool to me because they represent a moment in history, albeit the action-filled moment.

There was a definite collecting lull which lasted from about 1984 until the late 1990s. The lull started in 1983 or thereabouts when Airfix stopped producing their 1/32 historical figures. And it was just getting good too. They had just released their Italian infantry set. I think the lull had something to do with "people were tired of war after Vietnam". Which doesn't make much sense, because then came the Rambo, Platoon, and Full Metal Jacket films in the mid to late 80s. Yes, there were GI Joe figures in the 1980s, but the only good ones were the initial waves. Then it became more and more fantasy. I stopped collecting after that.

I don't think there will be another lull because there are just too many serious collectors out there now who are willing to pay good money for a decent product. However, I think it would be good if these companies would stop rehashing the same old stuff. How many more D-Day and Vietnam figures do we actually need? Try spicing up the lines a bit with Volkssturm or French resistance figures. Create female figures when applicable. Consider creating enemy figures for the US troops to fight. (I won't get on my soapbox about that again.) I think there would be more interest if there was more variety.

[Arclight]

The first successful war film from the release of Platoon to the release of Saving Private Ryan was: 0. (I'm a commercial filmmaker).

And I never meant to imply a "blood and guts" fix or anything like that. That would be strange. I personally (as I think everyone on this board feels) will never get tired of collecting and such. And that isn't what it's about for any of us. But we are a very, very small portion of the market. And we don't get it done for Walmart and TRU. They need kids and younger collectors in masses. And I think those kids and their parents don't feel the same as us.

And yes, I do feel the world was tired after Vietnam. And I say that with a father who was in the 101st and MACVSOG in Vietnam (And a former member of this board) and I fully support the cause of that war in all ways - But then and now, regardless of your alignment and feelings - I think, in general, it is tiring on most people.

It's about escaping in a good way. But I respect and appreciate your feelings and opinion. It's certainly something to think about. And like I said, I don't know one way or the other. So I'm glad to hear your take on it. Certainly something I'll think about and ponder.

Thanks

EDIT: Also, remember what movies like Rambo were about. A veteran who was believed to be a hippie and was harassed by the police. He snapped mentally from it. Rambo (the original one) was an exercise in the pent up feelings behind how veterans were treated and the mental stress they were put under. It was screaming out, rather than a cool factor of war.

Or look at movies like Night of the Living Dead (the original): Watch it and think Vietnam. You'll see the stress being bled out in that movie. And then it suddenly disappeared and people didn't talk about it for a long time. But that is all old film study stuff.... Again - Your opinion is much appreciated. Certainly creates interesting thing to think about.

[dandaman]

And yes, I do feel the world was tired after Vietnam.

Just wanted to clarify that I meant no insensitivity about the Vietnam war. It's just that the consensus in the early 1980s was that no war figures should be produced because the US had just finished their involvement in a very costly war.

This sounds logical, but if we follow the same pattern, we are in for another dry season of figures, because people are tired of the Iraq war.

[Arclight]

I totally see eye to eye on you with that one. Totally. I don't look forward to a dry spell in 1:18 and most other scales, but I think we might see it come anyway.

I loved the glory days of XD and I think they will return, but they might be dry for a while.

I wish it don't have to happen that way, but like I said our feelings don't always have the wallet power to make a difference.

Hopefully I'll be wrong and we'll see the figures keep coming. Great points though. Thanks.

[Jay]

I think a few people here are on the same page I am when I say, if you can't buy it - build it yourself. Is this the dawn of a small cottage industry revolving around 1/18?

[Jesse James]

The fact 1 XD figure probably equals 8 to 10 32X figures in terms of cost/tooling and production complexity, might have something to do with it. Size/ammount of plastic is virtually irrelevant, so that's not a matter... Paint applications on XD toys aren't exactly the tops of the toy industry either, no offense guys, so I wouldn't try to draw a comparison there either.

Where there is a big difference though is complexities between the two. A 32X figure is a small PVC statue, whereas a 1:18 figure is a slightly larger item comprised of many parts. The parts all require molds, and the molds all require construction to create the figure. That alone puts a single XD figure substantially more complex than a 32X figure or even a pack of 32X figures. 32X tanks and such are usually substantially less complex pieces, and really their vehicles more closely equate to XD figures. It's just the way it is.

To address the death of 1:18... I disagree. It's a slower scale, I'll say that. There's much more going into production though, and that's just something people have to learn to deal with.

I just saw new 21st figures at Wal-Mart the other day though (New rifleman and DAK MP-40)... Stuff's coming. Vehicles seem to be less interesting to WM but TRU just stocked some more stuff not too long ago so it may show there... Who knows where it may show. It may show at WM come the holidays unless there's been some mass letter to the public saying 21st is done with WM and vice versa. Not saying anything will show, just that it could, and we won't know if it does or not till closer that time. I just hope it isn't more planes because planes last year didn't do too swift.

Then again, I see buttloads of 32X planes too... I'm seeing a trend personally where aviation isn't quite the boon people think it is.

I'm annoyed to have to wait for stuff but figures are, and always should have been, the mainstay of 1:18. And they seemingly continue to be the consistent item coming out. FOV has some great figures out, their armor doesn't sit in the slightest (the ww2 stuff anyway, which I've still yet to see around Pittsburgh), and the 21st figures are still coming out at a trickle all year long. That's hardly "death", and that's all stuff from small companies to boot.

If you broaden it to 3.75" scale in general, Hasbro's caused a toy industry resurgence in the scale as now other companies look to make smaller figures. Some cite the smaller scale will help in the long-term with materials costs, and it will, but that's a small reason. Others cite the generally less complex toolings for smaller figures, and that too is true... The smaller the item generally the less detailed it is, and the less detailed the less complexity to the mold toolings. Then there's also the fact that the smaller scale works well at a time when shelf space is at a premium and retailers are demanding smaller for more maximizing of their display utility (would you rather 6 pegs of $10 6" scale figures or 12 pegs of $7 3.75" scale figures?).

There's a whole slew of reasons though that companies may think smaller is better... 21st seems to be banking on two smaller scales and it's working for them in most ways. Their vehicle market for 1:18 is in limbo, but at least Hasbro's got some WW2 era stuff rolling out, and FOV has their hat in the ring... 21st's vehicles are supposedly due, but not at a mass retailer (yet). I don't see "death" in the 1:18 scale, or even slow-down, just a point where 21st's got to find a mass retailer they can work with, not be dictated to (which WM always does with who is purchases from).

An ideal situation would be 21st actually communicating with the public, but only through an organized bi-weekly Q&A session ala what Hasbro's doing with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and G.I. Joe. People post their questions (only their questions) to one thread, someone at the site picks them out and a routine communication line is opened between manufacturer and niche market.

Right now their silence and general disregard for the community tends to put these kinds of threads where there's debate if the sky is falling or not, out into the public. It's bad for the community in general, but if 21st isn't in the mood to deal with collectors online, then there should be an organized Q&A through the site itself. It works well with Hasbro. Unfortunately some sites seemingly let insulting questions/condescending remarks get through unedited, but I'd think that wouldn't happen here.

I would also hope asinine repetitive questions that the answers are already known, would not get through, but that's me. I think we know playsets aren't coming back here, and I think we can write off a number of airplanes due to size. Inevitably someone asks if we're going to get a USS Enterprise deck playset that they can land their corsair on... There's always someone who dreams big and thinks little.

[dandaman]

Regarding communication with companies...there are two kinds of companies. Those who produce stuff based on public interest/demand and those who have their own agenda about what they want to produce.

Not that either one is particularly bad, that's not the point. If the company is small, privately owned and operated, then the owners may not give a flip about what the community desires. They will produce what they want, when they want.

Does anyone know for sure that 21st Century is about serving the collecting community or do they have their own agenda?

[topnotch97]

it ain't dead. coz, i'm playing these guys:

[olifant]

Regarding communication with companies...there are two kinds of companies. Those who produce stuff based on public interest/demand and those who have their own agenda about what they want to produce.

Not that either one is particularly bad, that's not the point. If the company is small, privately owned and operated, then the owners may not give a flip about what the community desires. They will produce what they want, when they want.

Does anyone know for sure that 21st Century is about serving the collecting community or do they have their own agenda?

You are right about there being two kinds of companies, but I think you have them pegged incorrectly. The two kinds are:

1) A company that manufactures and markets products customers buy and they profit from

and

2) Companies that either make products customers won't buy and/or can't make a profit from.

Many type (1) companies falter and turn into type (2) companies. It is always always always about money.

[Jesse James]

I agree, it's about profiting and finding balance... Hasbro caters Star Wars to as many demographics as they can to make the most money and keep the most interest while still gaining new interest and momentum.

21st... I don't know what they think. We wanted Battle of the Bulge, we got it. We wanted Marines and Japanese, we got them... We wanted a Tiger with interior and we got it. Avenger Torp. Plane? got it... ME262... Got that too even.

I think they're listening but at the same time they're trying to keep things profitable and interesting. Wal-Mart as your ONLY partner is gonna bite you in the ass at some point though and I think this year it ultimately finally did. I'm glad they're back with TRU, that's a positive step, and they're still dealing with WM but seemingly less interest in the larger-ticket items... OK, that's a step back, but as the thread's title suggests, "it ain't dead" by any means.

I'm still seeing new stuff, and that to me means a future. FOV just restocked WW2 figures at Target too. I could use some more of those Germans as they're outstanding, and at this point I'll take some GI's too because I'm not seeing a dang American on the pegs anywhere and I'll always get more grunts for the beach landings, even if some aspects of the FOV figures are inaccurate.

Maybe my Indiana Jones is gonna bring some buddy's to get the Ark? Why bother relying on the Ark spirits to get the job done when you just can have the U.S. Army come do it for ya!

[STUKA]

1:18 is not dead.
We have had longer waiting periods in the past -
Sure - we get to vent, gripe, and throw things - but we will always be welcomed back with open arms and maybe a fatted calf.

There I have said it - 21st is not dead -
New topic.

[B24guy]

The Bad Cat blog has a good article on the death of 1/18th scale.

[chunks]

On the face of it, it was coming.

For myself the only airspace left anyway is reserved for 21c/Admiral's F-4, Admiral's Dauntless and Spad, 21c's B-25 and MiG-21, and Pegasus's X-1. Most of that will likely be filled by others (the Dauntless and X-1 I expect to see).

The remaining 1/18 ground space remains for 21's 88 and one surprise. 1/6 has the most expansion space remaining and not that much either.

[Panzer_M]

Fairbanks, AK


noah, you got tons of room up there to build the chunksbunker plus when it all goes down the crapper you'll be ready behind and under reinforced concrete

[chunks]

"chunksbunker" . Never thought of it that way!! Consider it done!!

[King O' Fools]

Tales of the Cat is really a source of wisdom:

Package size, became a big shipping factor as UPS et. al., quietly upped the price by a factor of 2 to ship 1:18 case boxes both from the manufacturer to the retailer and retailer to consumer.

Source: http://www.talesofthecat.com/journal/20 ... ctors.html


This from the only (at least to my knowledge) US etailer that disclaims any and all responsibility for any loss of or damage to international parcels shipped overseas, but at the same time imposes on its foreign customers the single most expensive shipping option available from USPS.

This is hilarious.

[kduck]

You are right. I think that the Platoon figures would have been better in the hey day of Vietnam movies and the show (Platoon) when it aired in the 80s.

I think the show you are referring to was "Tour of Duty".

I agree about the odd choices 21C is offering. I just don't understand releasing figures for a 20+ year old movie. It would have made more sense to spend the licensing fees on figures for a more recent Vietnam movie like "We were Soldiers". For Hasbro it works with figures for the IJ movies but IJ is a much bigger deal and the 4th movie is about to be released. Platoon was a good movie but it's not a big part of popular culture.

Another example of an odd choice is the Quad AA trailer. Whoever felt that that would be a good item to produce must have been out of his mind. It might be a nice piece but exactly how many people were clamoring for that item to be produced? The money spent on that tooling would have been better spent on something that enthusiasts have been asking for. How about a German motorcycle & sidecar combo? How about a Schwimmwagen? How about rereleasing some of the stuff that people are asking for like the Fallshirmjagers? Also with all the talk about production costs how come they are able to produce 32X vehicles and planes at a good price point? A motorcycle & sidecar combo wouldn't be particularly large and shouldn't cost any more to produce than a 32X tank. If they would produce a set like that and price it at $15-$20 it would probably sell well assuming that 21C could actually distribute it properly.

What I would really like to see is 1/18 figure sets somewhat similar in concept to the old Airfix 1/32 Multipose Figures. Say a set of 3 figures with numerous body parts (some articulated and some not) along with numerous choices of personal weapons and field gear. They could easily release different sets that use the same basic figures but with different items of personal gear depending on the type of unit the set is intended to represent. And how a about a friggin enthusiast line? I would like to see some figures where realism is the goal with proper insignia and weapons straps and proper paint schemes etc. How about figures that are weathered and have facial features like 5 oclock shadow or fatigued expressions? When I look at pictures of 1/35 or 1/16 models and dioramas from master modelers like Verlinden I wish that someone would produce 1/18 figures and vehicles with a tenth as much detail and character.

[digger]

Kduck, there has been a sort of 80s revival in pop culture of late (clothes, movies, music) so the Platoon release is not that far off.

As for the quad trailer, it has been discussed before and some people have had a hard time comprehending that it was not made instead of a German cycle with sidecar, it was made instead of nothing at all. The M16 was long-clamored for (see below) and some of our rationale was that the quad M2s could then easily be used for other pieces. If you don't like the trailer, leave it on the shelf, but it is one of very few ground pieces offered in recent years, and it was that or nothing. It was not a big new investment into an item nobody wanted, it was small investment to give us another piece for our ground forces.

JUST SOMETHING 1/18 ON THE GROUND TO BREAK THE DROUGHT. COME ON THE SPRING RAINS.

Thought I have been all about a Preist, because of playing Battlefield 1942. I voted for an M-16. We need some anti-aircraft out there. I mean we have 7 Emil variants out there. Our few Spits and jugs can't possibly do it all. And, now that we have trucks for convoys they need some kind of protection from strafing.
Aaron

Some of the gun trucks from VietNam were equipped with simialar Quad M2s much like the ones used onthe M16 halftracks. Interesting crossover part possibilities for 21st. Hint hint nudge nudge.

As far as the choice of hard top or soft top CCKW? Yes. I will take two of each.

TJ

How about the M3 Half-track converted to a M-16 with a quad .50....but then again I would sure like to see an M-16 quad in 1/6, or re-release of the 1/6 WSC but then with the smoke and beer maybe I should go to bed.

TTT

Gunner:

Using a chasis from a previous release won't work. I've been saying for years that 21C could build on their M3 Half-track to make: a M2 Half-track with just a post mounted mg (no pulpet) and of couse a M16 with a quad mount or a mortar carrier, or a half-track with a mounted gun (75mm or 105mm). And then carry a gun idea on to a gun by itself on a two wheel carriage.....wow

Seems like a simple suggestion to make us happy, right?

21C always has some reason to kill those ideas. A M-42 would be great.

TTT

And how about a M-16 Quad .50 Half-track, M-8 & M-20 Ford Armored Cars and my personal favorite the White Scout Car........all of course in 1/18 and 1/6.

I'm not asking too much, am I

I've been a good boy this year, so how about it Santa

TTT

However, we have been begging for an M16 halftrack for some time and for the same reason. They've got the awesome halftrack, just alter it accordingly as the US did during the war Same could be done with the Hanomag - I hope they take the plunge some day

yeah i really would like to see one of the aaa halftracks too. Maybe it will come one day.
Aaron

i wish they would do a M16 half track also.
i'd take at least 2

An M16 version of the M3 haltrack would be nice too. Both already exist in 1/18.

Btw, I think the schwimmwagen is boring as hell, so to each his own.

[immeww2]

Now that's what I call supporting statements to promote your position.

[aferguson]

well, Platoon is hardly the first questionable movie decision that 21c has made. Of the 'big 3'** i thought it had the best chance but just releasing a handful of figures without any enemy, without any supporting vehicles or something to give the line some zip, it was destined to not sell great, especially when they released a whole whack of generic vietnam soldier figures about the same time, and STILL with no enemy, no support vehicles etc.


** (Platoon, Sky Captain and Sahara.....oh and since we're talking paying royalties you can throw the Patton line in there as well).

I have been in this hobby since day one and am still astonished that there has been no motorcycle sidecar combo, which everyone seems to want. No german heavy mg tripod, no german mortar, no Stug III (one of the most basic german vehicles of the war with TONS of repaint potential, relatively simple tooling, hot looks, would sell tons of extra figures for tank riders and everyone that collects the scale seems to request one).

Other surprises include a LCVP (only 24 inches long, very recognizable and 21c would sell giziilions of figures because everyone is going to want to load their boat with troops.

It is likely now, unless things change dramatically, that we'll never see alot of the above items or other interesting and important subjects, since it is doubtful a $100 Stug or Higgins boat would sell well, and that seems to be the new price tag.

However, there is still the FOV wildcard....maybe they will show themselves to be a little more in tune with the 1/18 collector than 21c has...