Thought I had struck gold on the King Tiger!

Panther F · Post by **Panther F** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:47 am

I think it's priced accordingly:

http://www.historicaviation.com/histori ... n-Aviation

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:53 am

perhaps the Panther will be priced high to show some sort of profit.

These things were probably going full speed with all the money invested before WM closed the door.

At the same time they are stuck if they place their product at WM because people like me wait for the item to go on clearance - will be the same problem with target.

TRU does place items on clearance but not like the other two and products tend to sell quicker eg current shipments of planes are moving quickly as buyers know they will not be on clearance any time soon.

Panther should be sold at TRU at a significantly lower price $39.99-49.99 as they should move quickly - I doubt 21st has made a profit from the Panther yet probably one reason we have not seen it in stores for a long time - was a poor seller due to high price and distribution.

Bottom Line 21st is not making long plan decisions - their plans reflect a company trying to show a good profit margin and stay afloat. These Items we are seeing now and around the corner were already in progress and the money was already invested. This all happened before the trouble (not learning from mistakes, and listening to us too much

)

We know the length of time it takes a product to get to the final stages - sometimes two years.
21st has gone quiet.
21st gave us a glimps of items that were on the drawing board - but then pulled back and gave conflicting signals (after the trouble started.)

In other words - buy as many figures, planes and vehicles you can afford!!

Black_Dragon_One · Post by **Black_Dragon_One** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:16 am

i think buy one of each... and hope for the best.l...if prices are cheaper in the future so be it get some more if not and the company stop making stuff gust what you hit yourself if you can no longer get it..

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:50 am

Good points all, and I agree that a $100 Panther has no justification. This is going way off topic but I recently bought one of the PzIV RC clones from e-bay and it got me thinking about the tooling.

The big injection molds are by far the most expensive part of the cost equation for 21C. In the US at least there are two ways to go about handling the cost/ownership on the molds:

1) The company selling the goods produces the mold and then buys machine time from injection molders looking for business. If supplier relationships change so does the mold.
2) The company selling the goods goes to an injection molding firm, asks for quotes on the product and the injection molder builds the mold, runs the product and keeps the mold, hoping for future orders. In the US trademark laws would keep the firm from using it to run product for another customer, but in China, who knows what goes on.

The PzIV RC clone is definitely the 21C mold with some modifications: driver/MG gunner hatches don't open and mud guards have been added over the top of the track. Changes to tooling are much easier to do than to undo; taking metal off a tool is easier than adding it back in.

Their is the possibility that someone took the CAD drawings of the mold design and had a second mold made, but these things are so prohibitively expensive I find this doubtful.

Most likely 21C no longer owns the mold or never did, and we will never see a re-release of the PzIV with it's 21C design.

GooglyDoogly · Post by **GooglyDoogly** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:01 am

The sad thing is, if you think $100 is bad enough, think how much these will be on Ebay.

$200? $300? More? For that price, you might as well go 1/16th.

V2 MAN · Post by **V2 MAN** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:48 am

Black_Dragon_One wrote:i think buy one of each... and hope for the best.l...if prices are cheaper in the future so be it get some more if not and the company stop making stuff gust what you hit yourself if you can no longer get it..

I agree. We should all hope for the best and usually things turn out okay and things are back to normal. To me i would be satisfied with just 1 KT due to its size. But if prices are cheaper in the future theres a chance i may pick up another one. But then when your walking down that walmart aisle or Tru aisle and you see the 88 or KT. You then walk towards it and see the price. You then walk away hoping that they will clereance it in the future. Then a few weeks later you come back and there sold out... only option left is buy from online retailer or ebay. Like what Black dragon said youll hate yourself cause then youll probably end up spending double the cost of what you saw when you walked past that 88 or KT in Tru or walmart. So my advice is snag at least 1 of each when you see it, otherwise youll end up paying more folks. So we should all quit worrying about the high prices and just again hope for the best

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:07 pm

The question is if things are so bad financially-wise at 21st H.Q., why don’t they release repaints of those models that are most likely to sell well (like the Spitfire, Super Cobra, Huey, Jeep) at the usual price, just like they intend to do with the AVG P-40, instead of scaring away the bulk of their potential customers (that would be the average parent) in a vain attempt to recoup the tooling costs for these three models (Panther, King Tiger, 88) in the first production run?

And, yeah, about 21st paying too much attention to us, the Maxon quad-mount trailer should tell you pretty much anything you need to know about how responsive they are to collectors’ feedback. I mean, it’s not as if people here were exactly clamoring for that item.

Grilledcheese · Post by **Grilledcheese** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:36 pm

Well guys, all reasons, explanations and considerations aside, a hundred bucks is too steep for me to pay for a 1/18 ANYTHING.
I'm not bitching, complaining, or blaming anyone or anything, because to me that's all irrelevant----I'm just stating fact as it pertains to me. I make decent money, really don't have too many other expensive hobbies or vices and usually have a bit a cash to spend at the end of the month when all is said and done.
But I don't have that much---not for a big honkin' plastic tank or airplane, even if they are ultra-cool and super-groovy. If I were buying them as an investment, then maybe so. But I'm not.
That's just me. And in the huge pool of XD consumer fish swimming around out there, I'm gonna guess that I'm not the only one.
Good or evil, WalMArt is the sole reason I even know what XD is, and the prices WallyWorld charged are the only reason I have as many planes, vehicles, and figs as I do. I still don't have, and may never have a BBI Hornet because they simply were never in my price range.
But we all have different priorities.
I really don't think I'll get too upset about it all, because I've had a blast collecting the stuff I have. But one hundred a pop is pricing me out of the game. If I'm gonna start plunking down that kind of cash or more for something I'm collecting, it's gonna have Curio and Relic Eligible at the top of the ad and lead is gonna blast out the end of it when I pull the trigger.

So I'll just wait and see what happens, because at forty I'm finally old enough to realize that there's always something new and unexpected right around the corner...

Jeffrey

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:36 pm

To me it's a pointless thing to "debate"... I'm still waiting to see that these prices are the truth when these (if any) find their way to a TRU or other store... $100 for something not that much larger than I paid $50 for isn't worth it to me though. Same as $30 isn't worth it for a cool paintjob on the Pak (one I'd rather have) that I paid $20 for.

I think some estimations on mold toolings are a little on the high side personally... I'm no stranger to the toy industry and the complexities of the big ticket items, and 21st GENERALLY gets more life out of a large item's mold toolings than other companies may... Repaints and such. I think there's some overestimation there is all. It is what it is though... If they're $100 retail, they're just not worth it to me and I'll STRUGGLE to justify a KT for my shelf...

What's worse is if you're not getting a paintjob you want. Man oh man, now's the time to be picky and get your deco you absolutely want because I doubt those buying one are gonna buy two. Me, if I've got the extra scratch and nothing superior to spend it on, I might get a lone KT then, but my stance isn't changed for the most part, and the 88's going the way of the dinosaur for me... But I'm still willing to wait and see this actually pan out like etailers are sorta claiming.

I personally feel there's a lot of blame to go around... WM's shouldering some because they're notoriously terrible to deal with in their demands to toy manufacturers, and I'm sure that's been some of the issue. They also are the ones to blame for poor store-by-store distribution. Clearly Target works off a different system and it seems to work better by comparison (to us at least).

I'd blame 21st too though, but assortments, for not thinking of more frequent deco changes for variety, etc. They perhaps saw the problem themselves and didn't try too hard to correct it... The manufacturers have people looking in the stores too, to see what they maybe need to do to correct things.

I don't feel WM's view of the item's size is that much of an issue if they see the return on the line that they want. They're two related issues... A ton of clearanced planes = bad, a ton of planes selling full price =good and they'd accept the larger item. Fact is though, planes weren't selling and they did take losses on them.

The line overall has always been weird... Pallets of stuff in the back sitting then blown out before it even saw shelves at full price. That's always been bad for the hobby and it always seems to happen to OUR hobby at WM... No idea why that is. I know for a fact though my WM had pallets of stuff out after the holidays in 2006/Jan.2007, and they unloaded a pile of it all at clearance... Torpedoe Bombers, PAK's, hanomag repaints... Never saw full price on the floor. A lot of it would've sold too, so that was their opportunity lost.

The last bit of blame I agree with was whoever mentioned people waiting for clearance (and those who do that routinely is who I'm sorta focusing on here). Lots of folks do this, and I don't honestly have much bad to say because it's just smart shopping. It's really nobody's right to fingerpoint at these people, but they are part of the problem... And like WM's distribution coupled with 21st's "variety" or assortment issues, the clearance thing is sort of related to the other problems... People see a pile of the same plane at a store week upon week, and they're just not gonna buy till it's cheap.

That said, I personally don't care if 21st gives up at this point... If by chance this $100 price is true because the line's now all "short run" production as people are claiming, so be it... I'm just not into it at that price. The affordability of building a decent sized collection at a decent price was a draw to me for this. Figures are still affordable, so yay for me. If this new $100 price is accurate news, then hey... No skin off my rear. It's easy to walk away from it. I can afford it all, sure, but it exceeded its appeal to me now... I'm annoyed because I really enjoy the line as it stands, but not at a pretty drastic price increase, no.

If it can survive at retail in this supposed "limited" capacity... Great, and good for the guys willing to pay for it. If it can't though, then it shouldn't be produced. If it can't survive on retail shelves at a lower price, it shouldn't be produced... That's just the way it is. I'm happy to take or leave it at this point.

FOV's doing great figures and fair priced vehicles ina line that I hope is going to keep on rolling. 21st's figures seem to still be coming, and I love 'em, so I'll keep buying... I'll miss the vehicles from them, but I'll get over it too.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:06 am

Well said Jesse James.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:18 am

Well stated Jesse. Im willing to pay high price for such 1:18 dreams as B-25, F-4 and such because the tooling, size and efforts would be worth it to me and I would want to ensure it was worth it to the company. However, 100.00 for another tank thats not much bigger in size and details from a 20.00 - 40.00 tank just isn't justifiable to me

Im still excited about the aircraft possibilities but I really do think we're on the downhill slide of our 1:18 military offerings. Thank Goodness the Indiana Jones line is coming to fill my 1:18 addicition!

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:56 am

Jesse James wrote: I think some estimations on mold toolings are a little on the high side personally...

I'd say your right about that. Tooling made in China can be up to 50% cheaper than U.S. made tooling.

Jesse James wrote: But I'm still willing to wait and see this actually pan out like etailers are sorta claiming.

Well, I for one am not claiming it will pan out. I'm merely suggesting that the marketplace may need to change. Again, it is up to the consumer to decide if the product is still desirable/feasible if circumstances dictate that it must be sold at a higher price.

I see several people on the forum saying 'oh well, I'll go back to Star Wars/Indiana Jones/whatever'. Some collectors have broader interests and are sort of the "I collect everything" crowd. These people will certainly abandon a higher-priced XD for lower-priced goods at the first opportunity. However, I try to keep my collecting interests a little more consolidated so the idea of a $100 1:18 King Tiger or 88mm, or even a $200 F4 Phantom, MIG, A-10, etc. doesn't bother me. It would cost me a lot more in time (that I don't have) to try to build such a model myself and it would not look half as good!

The question is: are there enough people with my disposition and disposable income to support this hobby at a higher price point?

Jesse James wrote: I personally feel there's a lot of blame to go around... WM's shouldering some because they're notoriously terrible to deal with in their demands to toy manufacturers, and I'm sure that's been some of the issue.

That's true. Their buyers are well known to be arrogant beyond measure, the same applies for most big retailers and not just WM.

I am sure they overrode many of 21st's suggestions, which resulted in poor sales the results of which ultimately wash back over the whole hobby.

Jesse James wrote: The last bit of blame I agree with was whoever mentioned people waiting for clearance (and those who do that routinely is who I'm sorta focusing on here).

Agreed on this. Rejoice when you get a good deal on something, but also recognize that it may signal the death knell for a hobby that you enjoy.

warhawker · Post by **warhawker** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:15 am

I agree for the most part. $100 for a tank that is not completely detailed out and I foresee, due to the pricing, a lot of these just sitting on shelves.
We should wait and see when they are discounted over time.

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:32 am

warhawker wrote: We should wait and see when they are discounted over time.

Don't be so sure that this will happen. Manufacturer and vendors are not likely to, respectively, over-produce and over-order in a situation where controversial price changes have been introduced.

I know I won't be stuffing my warehouse full of these only to have the consumer try to employ this "wait me out" tactic. These new items will either sell or they won't at full SRP, and that will likely dictate the future of feasibility of the whole thing.

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:06 am

We are a small slice of the number of consumers - but statistically our precentage should be a good indication to 21st on what will sell etc.

I started out strictly vehicles/tanks and ventured into fighters/jets.
Why? Because there were no tanks and vehicles on the shelves. Why airplanes? Because I found them all on clearance and they are cool as hell. The $15.00 dollar planes kept me in this hobbey when the figures and vehicles dried up. I am not going to walk into WM and shell out $39.99 when I know it will be $15.00 in a month. The only planes I missed out on with this wait for clearance plan was the bubbletop and razerback - I honestly only remember seeing two of those in WM in the last 3-4 years.

The figures also also why I am here - 21st is doing a knock out job with them!! Hats off.

Honestly I'm excited about this hobbey - yes frustrated at the Price of a KT and 88 as I wish I could display them right next to my dicast, playable interior Tiger Tank ($49.99 full price at WM) I picked my Tiger up for $29 I think - because the box was damaged and I spoke with a manager.

Im excited because the planes and jets seem to be selling well at TRU.
1.No expected clearance there.
2. Price is lower than online retailers

But this fad will change unless 21st keeps the variety comming. People will only buy so many smoke IIs and ridge runners. The BBI old crows still sit because they are a bit higher in price and there was no real variety - just a bunch of Old crows - hell I've yet to see a hellcat. Again its the distribution system - probably computer program that works great for smaller items eg starwars figures and Hanna Montana dolls.

I'm also excited because FOV has come out with IMHP quality 1;18 tanks for $19.99 - yes they need some work and in time will get better.
Half track is on the way and the options are endless! What next a $9.99 pak 40? some prime movers?

Sorry 21st I will take $19.99 shermans over a $39.99 sherman.

What 21st needs to do:
Come out with some kick ass shermans for $19.98 - throw in a figure and they will roll off the shelves.

Stop focusing on expensive Bankruptcy type projects.

Stop flooding the market with same type figures!
Mix and match eg. a box will come with a few Nam figures, a few DAK, and maybe a few OMG or Tankers. Figures that did not sell well in the past BOB driver - throw in sandbags, ammo boxes, blood sausages etc.

im done

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:42 am

I think it's safe to assume that many XD diehard collectors will still buy those items, just not multiples of them like they used to. Other collectors and most casual buyers won't touch the stuff at all at that price, when they can get a FOV tank for a fraction of it. Not unless they happen to be Exxon's head honcho (as somebody else pointed out upthread).

Therefore, most people will simply pass on those paint schemes that don't really appeal to them. So customers holding off on the DAK 88, for instance, isn't necessarily an indication that they're not interested on the product or are "outwaiting" etailers in any way. Maybe they're waiting for the grey version to come out (which is my case, since there are no other DAK items to be found out there)... if it does ever come out, that is.

Because at that price, 21st had better choose their paint schemes carefully or risk poor sales of the first production run, which would likely kill any future repaints.

However, the question still stands: how come AT can produce different paint schemes in limited production runs at a much lower price?

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:28 am

Unfortunately I am completist, and so I have every 1:18 tank and plane from every company including repaints except for one repaint each of Me-109, Mustang and P-38. I also collect anything else that is 1:18 that I feel is cool (some of the newer starwars figs, indiana Jones etc.)
Even though I am blessed enough to be able to afford this hobby and not steal food from the kiddies mouths, I stop being a completist when I feel Im getting screwed, such as when I stopped being a completist with star wars when Hasbro started the numeorus new packaging with same old figures scam, but they started listening to customers again and now they have incredible new sculpts, and they dont even have to charge 100% mark up!

With 21st and this 100% mark up, (compared to other tanks) I will have to give up my completist strategy and only buy one (got to have at least one) but I wont buy more based on principle, not economics. Now if price proves to be wrong, and is more realistic and fair, then count me back in! Again, I have no problem paying larger amounts for larger amounts of plastic, and company respect. (Hey Jason Im still in for an Admiral F-4, SBD, Skyraider etc.. including repaints!)

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:47 am

King O' Fools wrote: However, the question still stands: how come AT can produce different paint schemes in limited production runs at a much lower price?

Do we know that Admiral's business has generated a profit to date? I don't mean to sound negative as I am 100% behind their success and release of future products. However, it seems they've had a rough go of it considering their releases both actual and planned being, how do I say, "interfered with?" by other manufacturers.

If they can release two or three more original planes over the next couple of years then I'd say it is a new industry/hobby standard to point to. Until then...?

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:39 pm

"Because at that price, 21st had better choose their paint schemes carefully or risk poor sales of the first production run, which would likely kill any future repaints."

That's a big 10-4. If they were aware of the limeted production nature of the 88 and subsequent huge price increase then choosing the DAK scheme for the first one was a GIANT mistake. It is clear and obvious that most everyone wants a grey version....and probably in multiples.

Given the new price, multiple purchases may not happen but a lot of people are going to balk at the DAK in favour of spending the money on the grey one if/when it comes out. I assume they are trying to recoup their costs on the first production run, which means they have ordered a fairly large number of DAK 88's. So, if lots of people balk at it and it doesn't sell very well, then a grey one may happen, or it may not.

A smarter approach would have been to make the grey version S1, produce it in large numbers and then do a follow up DAK version in a few months, with a much lower production run (say 2000 vs 5000).

An even smarter approach would be to follow FOV's lead and release two schemes at once; maybe make 3500 greys and 1500 DAKs.

For the KT, i would have preferred an ambush scheme, but that is personal preference. The S1 scheme they've chosen is nice, but unremarkable. At these new prices they need to come out with the juciest scheme possible first, then do smaller runs of other interesting schemes. The reverse tactic worked fine for $40 planes and tanks.......gonna backfire on $100 tanks.

And if the hope is that we'll all buy one for fear the paint scheme we really want will never see the light of day......well, that's a pretty $hitty way to treat your long term, loyal customers.

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:37 pm

Not getting into price as it is clearly something we are all pretty divided on, I will say that the 88 was a huge part of the DAK, we have the DAK spotter, and anything the gun would be shooting at would be too far away to be in your dio anyway.

I don't see why this is a bad scheme to start with - it is not like a pink spitfire. Yes, Grey may be more popular but it is safe to say it is coming down the line, and that people always rush to buy the first one anyway, so no real business reason to lead with the absolute most popular scheme first.

Also, I don't think 2 schemes at the same time is too wise, especially at this PP.

tko211 · Post by **tko211** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:10 pm

The higher price on the KT and 88 signal winds of change in the 1:18 market place. At least that is my opinion. Part of this is due largly in part to the fact that the 88 anf KT will not be offered in stores at this time. That may change and it may not. Prices are bound to go up in general anyway, add to it that distribution is shifting to smaller items, and that fans already have amassed many 1:18 scale items and it's easy to see that 1:18 might become more specialty in the future.

The v1 rocket from Pegasus was what... 30.00! and it has how many moving parts?

All I am saying here is that I see some (not all) but some products in 1:18 moving to a more specific collector market. It will be really interesting to see if this approach will allow 21C and other toy makers continue to make the products that we all demand. The bigger the item the more resistant the mass retilers are to wanting to carry it = a bigger price tag due to shorter runs overall.
Who knows this just might be the future of 1:18 collecting. Fewer pieces in a year, higher quality, higher price, and fewer made overall?

Yoxford · Post by **Yoxford** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:17 pm

I am from the 1/16 modeling side of things so for me personally $100.00 for a 1/18 scale tank is not bad… but it had best be worth it… as GooglyDoogly pointed out, if the pictures I have seen are the production model then it is shaky at best.

I paid $30.00 for a FOV 1/18 Bravo Tiger 1 knowing full well that at that price point, I had some work to do. Hatch handles molded solid, bits that needed reworked…but here is a $100.00 KT with the SAME molded solid hatch handle and, what handles I do see, are way over scale. Add to that no hanger hooks for the spare tracks (that I can see), no cable for the headlight, way too thin rear tow hook “ears” I will hold judgment until I see the model in person, but if that is the production version, Lucy, You Got Some ‘Splain’in’ to Do …

Now in reality I can fix those things but why should I for $100.00?….and I know not all of the members on this forum have the time or tools to do “all the little fixes” to bring it up to speed. That is why they got into this hobby in the first place, no time to paint and build a great bit of military history AND no huge bank account to buy museum quality models. Till now the 1/18 community has really had the “best of both worlds”. And to quote another Star Trek TNG episode title, I fear “ALL good Things” have come to an end.

I have taken my money and per-ordered the 1/16 FOV Sherman. Yea its $400.00 but you know the level of detail and quality are going to be there. If I have any left over then maybe I will pick up the KT.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:21 pm

I like Aferg's logic. Releasing two schemes at once is something 21c does quite often with the 1:32 planes. The also did it "back in the day" with the 1:18 P-47 Razorbacks, P-40s, and FW-190s at Wal Mart. Sometimes it works and for me it would be the way to go, but as As digger indicated, it can backfire due either to distribution problems or buyer preference.

I also agree with Aferg that releasing the DAK version of the 88, especially for the heavy price, is potentially a mistake. Certainly from a historical perspective, the 88 was of vital importance in the North African campaign, but it was also that on every other German battlefield from France to Stalingrad to Berlin. In my opinion, either the gray version or even a camoflauged version would have been a better choice than the DAK version. Certainly they could be used in more potential diorama settings than just a desert

21c has always seemed to have an odd way of doing business that simply doesn't make alot of practical sense at times. They are either all over the board or make the most obscure choices. (As someone noted above, why the heck was the M-17 trailer ever produced if 21c is really concerned about making a profit?)

Then there's the customer relations and I whole heartedly agree with Aferg that releasing the funky paintschemes in large numbers first is not a great way of doing business. For the classic example, why the heck was the "Atlantic" paintscheme of the Avenger released first? It should have been a limited secondary release with the more classic looking "Bunker Hill" or "George Bush" scheme coming out initially. That probably would have helped the sales of the item as well. The average American may not know exactly what a TBF Avenger bomber is, but seeing that it was flown by a former US President would have helped the sales. Many of us, I'm sure, also remember the stacks of discounted "Atlantic" Avengers at Wal Mart and notice we've not seen any other version of that plane there since.

I fear the DAK 88s and King Tiger could turn out the same way, especially, if they are released in bulk. Poor sales will retard future growth and drive up prices. 21c really needs to get its act together if it wants to remain the "industry leader of small scale military toys."

Just my two cents on the above discussion

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:21 pm

tko211 wrote:The higher price on the KT and 88 signal winds of change in the 1:18 market place. At least that is my opinion. Part of this is due largly in part to the fact that the 88 anf KT will not be offered in stores at this time. That may change and it may not.

I do have one thing to say on that topic: if 21st soaks the collector market on the first release of these items, then turns around and releases them to a major retailer at a much lower price later on this is going to irreparably irk vendors and consumers, and pretty much single-handedly put a stop to any future purchases of new-release items at higher prices.

normandy · Post by **normandy** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:58 pm

I ordered 2 King Tigers from Historic Aviation on Friday at 4pm, $34.95 each with shipping $79.00....... Well today I got a call from them..... ( I knew this was coming ) " there seems to be a small problem with your order, the price in the catalog is a misprint your new total is $215.85." The HELL it is.............no sale!
Oh and Historic Aviation said "the King Tiger will not be in stock until June."

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Thought I had struck gold on the King Tiger!

new stuff