21st Tiger (late) Vs. FOV (mid) Tiger

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:48 pm

Ok guys. I have both of them and I will give you a heads up comparison. Pictures would be better but I think I can get it right.
1. Overall the FOV does look a little toyish compared to the 21st.
2. The FOV copula slides open along with the loaders hatch. This the only thing that opens. 21st opens as well along with the radio and drivers comp.
3. The Mg ring is molded solid on the copula not in a seprate piece. For that matter all of the assc. on the FOV are molded into the hull. Shovels jacks blocks the whole thing. Unlike the 21st you can take almost everything off of the tank.
3. The ventalator on top of the turret has the armor cover on it . This is cool.
4. The lifting trunions are there on the FOV. The back one is in the middle of the back storage boxes . The front ones are there but they don't have the caps on them. When done they look kind of like a big nail. The 21st DOES NOT have them.
5. The front mantlet has the singel sight hole on the FOV . It should probably be the 2 hole like the 21st.
6. On the front of the tanks . FOV kubel mg mount front hole is a little big and it is not covered with zimmermit. I think that it should be. Bosch light looks the same on both. The FOV shovel looks real goofy cast into the body.
7. Rear deck. On the FOV the rear armored vents are not see through. THIS LOOKS REAL TOYISH. They should have cast them hollow. They have a little casting of the Fiefel air cleaners on the rear deck of the FOV. The metal V part in front of the rubber hose. They even have part of the clamp that holds the rubber hoses cast into the hull. But the detail is lack luster. It is as if they cast only half the thickness of the apporatis.. The muffeler caps on the FOV are solid. They are not right on the 21st either but they look better on the 21st.
8. Road wheels. The FOV road wheels are ok for the early rubber wheels. The rubber should be a little taller (thicker) to look scale. It measures about 3/32 form edge to rim. It should be a full 1/8th thick or 5/32 to look scale. The center hubs should be deeper. HERE IS THE BIGGEST THING WRONG WITH THE FOV WHEELS. THEY ARE MISSING THE OUTSIDE WHEELS. THE TANK IS SET UP FOR A RIDE ON A TRAIN. IN THE WAR THEY TOOK THE OUTSIDE WHEELS OFF AND PUT NARROW TRACKS BECAUSE OF THE NARROW EUROPEN RAIL ROADS. The set up is just like the steel wheels on the 21st. This correct for the 21st but not for the older rubber wheels. I guess you could cast 4 more and put them on to make this correct. But it should be right!
9. The tracks. The trascks on the 21st are a older set of tracks. I guess this could be OK because the Germans used what ever they had. The FOV has the newest pattern with the cheverons and the little loops that cover the teeth on the main driver spocket. The tracks should be traded from one model to the other to be right.

My over all is that the 21st is the better model hands down over the FOV. The zimmermit is cool looking and that is as far as it goes . The older rubber wheels are just ok and if they had the 8 other ones that are missing it would look a lot better. No towing shackels lack of opening hatches and the single cast assc. on the hull all take away from the over look of this new on the market tank.
It is worth having but customizers will have a long road ahead of them to bring this tank up to speed. Grind all of the shovels , sledge hammers and the like off of the FOV steal them from the 21st cast more wheels and open some hatches do some crazy weathering and after about 40 hrs of detailing and you will have a showpiece. But that will be a lot of work.
Grades:
21st Tiger A-
FOV Tiger C-

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:57 pm

Thanks for the comparison. I saw the FOV Tiger at Target today, but it just didn't look right to me.

immeww2 · Post by **immeww2** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:51 pm

The more I see and read about the FOV Tiger, the less inclined I am now to get it even though I haven't spotted them yet in my AO.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:38 pm

I have been looking at them all night. If you make more wheels of the FOV earlier style. Take the wheels off the 21st and FOV switch them we may be on to something.
I also forgot the FOV missed a big spot of the zimmermit on the front deck were the drive axel is. It is the section were they have the long handel shovel. Looks like to rectify this is the ole hot screw driver method. I don't think that the tile mastic method will work.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:46 am

Thanks for the excellent comparison! It's a really big help.

-Ski

vmf214 · Post by **vmf214** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:07 am

Great comparison! For the price point though I still think the FOV version is ok. Less the sticker price less the R&D

. Hopefully they keep up the WW2 line and maybe they will make a T-34, hint hint 21st..

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:12 pm

I guess that I need to get a life.
I scaled the turret of the FOV and 21st. The Fov accross the turret is spot on. The 21st is actualy 1cm or about 3/8 of an inch too small. The Mg ring on the copula is in the wrong poston on the 21st right on the Fov. But the ring does look better on the 21st. There is a lot more detail on the top of the FOV turret . It does look better the hinges look better than 21st wich looks toyish to me. Mark one up for the FOV !!!. But the muzzle brace has a silly little ring on the tip. THIS HAS GOT TO BE CUT OFF !!!!!!!

Cover me I am going back in.

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:54 pm

Pickelhaube, you have me so curious about the FOV tiger that I might just have to go back to Target and get one!

digger · Post by **digger** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:26 pm

Did you compare the interiors?

Post by **aferguson** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:16 pm

digger if you don't like the FOV tiger don't buy it!....lol

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:03 pm

But the muzzle brace has a silly little ring on the tip. THIS HAS GOT TO BE CUT OFF !!!!!!!

I noticed that too, but this is about as easy a fix as they come, a sharp modeling knife of the exacto type or similiar, or even a file used carefully should take care of that no problemo

Someone else mentioned (in another thread maybe?) that the mantlet on the FOV was wrong because it had only one sighting hole, and again, this is a very easy fix, all you need to do is a drill an extra hole of the proper size and presto, you're done. These kinds of issues are so easy to fix that anybody should be able to do it.

I also forgot the FOV missed a big spot of the zimmermit on the front deck were the drive axel is. It is the section were they have the long handel shovel.

I'm gonna have to research this further, but all the pics I have show that plate under the shovel as being smooth, ie no Zimmerit...so I'm not really certain that FOV forgot anything. You got any pics that clearly show this surface covered with Zimmerit ??, and I'm referring to real tanks, not models, because as we well know, models are not always accurate.

I've got a bunch of pics from Wittmans biography "Tiger Ace" that show this surface sans Zimmerit, so I'm assuming this is accurate.

digger · Post by **digger** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:40 pm

aferguson wrote:digger if you don't like the FOV tiger don't buy it!....lol

wasn't trying to bust on the fov (any more), just pointing out that such a good review deserved to hit all stops.

I like your idea of buy two for the price of a much better one to create a much better one...oh, and then go out and buy a couple of tankers.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:37 pm

I also forgot the FOV missed a big spot of the zimmermit on the front deck were the drive axel is. It is the section were they have the long handel shovel.

I'm gonna have to research this further, but all the pics I have show that plate under the shovel as being smooth, ie no Zimmerit...so I'm not really certain that FOV forgot anything. You got any pics that clearly show this surface covered with Zimmerit ??, and I'm referring to real tanks, not models, because as we well know, models are not always accurate.

I've got a bunch of pics from Wittmans biography "Tiger Ace" that show this surface sans Zimmerit, so I'm assuming this is accurate.[/quote]
_____________________________________________________________

This is a good question. In most pics you can not see this area so well. I have the same Wittman book as you but can not find it. Without having to dig through all of my book on the Tiger I . I will use the Modeling Guide to the Tiger Tank. They have several pics showing the Tiger I with zimmerit.

On page 13 They show 2 tanks. Both of them not so clear but it can go either way . Does it have zimmerit or not ? It is hard to see.
Page 15 there is an insert and it looks about 75 % that there is the zimmerit. On the bottom of the page they have a pic of a Schwere Panzerabteilung 503 with steel wheels and it shows as up clear as day with zimmerit on the deck.
On page 16 there is yet another tank with steel wheels and narrow tracks and the factory applied zimmerit deck shows up well.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:42 pm

digger wrote:Did you compare the interiors?

This will be short:

FOV NOTHING

21st Not bad with turret basket, engine and radiators

Grade:
FOV F
21st A -

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:04 pm

the Modeling Guide to the Tiger Tank. They have several pics showing the Tiger I with zimmerit.

It's possible that there was no "standard" SOP for this, but I'm not sure. Jentz is one of the foremost authorities on the Tiger tank and I'm pretty sure I remember reading in one of his works that Zimmerit was only applied to vertical surfaces, not decks or turret tops etc. In your Wittman book, after page 175 there is a series of pictures starting with his wedding pic, on the 3rd page of those is a picture of a Tiger with a Kubel parked in front, it's pretty clear to me there is no Zimmerit on the front plate in question, there are a few others in there as well, but that is the best shot of the bunch. If you check this site http://www.alanhamby.com/gallery6.html scroll down a bit, and there is a good shot of a Tiger on a flatcar, again no Zimmerit on the area in question under the shovel, it's not a crystal clear shot, but it's quite good and you can discern the Zimmerit pattern very clearly. As for modeling guides, they are hit or miss in my experience, they are OK as general references, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on one. I have the Squadron Signal "Tiger in Action" modeling book and it has several good frontal shots of the Tiger with Zimmerit on the vertical surfaces, but not on the plate in front of the drivers vision slot. I dunno, I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but if I can find my Jentz book I can put this to rest in a hurry.

BTW, on the subject of models, for what it's worth here's a first rate kit somebody built using photoetched brass Zimmerit, http://www.onthewayuk.com/reviews/Revel ... r1Erev.htm and you can see, there's no Zimmerit applied to the plate where the shovel is.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:38 pm

ostketten wrote:
the Modeling Guide to the Tiger Tank. They have several pics showing the Tiger I with zimmerit.
It's possible that there was no "standard" SOP for this, but I'm not sure. Jentz is one of the foremost authorities on the Tiger tank and I'm pretty sure I remember reading in one of his works that Zimmerit was only applied to vertical surfaces, not decks or turret tops etc. In your Wittman book, after page 175 there is a series of pictures starting with his wedding pic, on the 3rd page of those is a picture of a Tiger with a Kubel parked in front, it's pretty clear to me there is no Zimmerit on the front plate in question, there are a few others in there as well, but that is the best shot of the bunch. If you check this site http://www.alanhamby.com/gallery6.html scroll down a bit, and there is a good shot of a Tiger on a flatcar, again no Zimmerit on the area in question under the shovel, it's not a crystal clear shot, but it's quite good and you can discern the Zimmerit pattern very clearly. As for modeling guides, they are hit or miss in my experience, they are OK as general references, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on one. I have the Squadron Signal "Tiger in Action" modeling book and it has several good frontal shots of the Tiger with Zimmerit on the vertical surfaces, but not on the plate in front of the drivers vision slot. I dunno, I'm not saying you're wrong or right, but if I can find my Jentz book I can put this to rest in a hurry.

Zimmerit was NOT applied to the horizontal surfaces ONLY vertical ones in the factory.. However, in the short period before zimmerit was applied by the factory, it was applied by crews in the field, so there is a little leeway when it comes to the mid-production Tiger I.

As a general rule:
Early Tigers did not have zimmerit
Mid-production Tigers mostly had zimmerit
Late Tigers all had zimmerit
Zimmerit application began with the mid-production Tigers and didn't cease until midway thru King Tiger Henschel turret production.

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:55 pm

Zimmerit was NOT applied to the horizontal surfaces ONLY vertical ones in the factory.. However, in the short period before zimmerit was applied by the factory, it was applied by crews in the field, so there is a little leeway when it comes to the mid-production Tiger I.

Thanks Harry, so it would seem that most Tigers would not have had any Zimm in that area under the shovel unless it was crew applied. In that case I suppose the FOV Tiger is, for the most part, accurate. If anyone wanted to apply some on their own, the photo etched brass might not be a bad option if you could find some in 1:16 scale, the 1:35 stuff is probably too small for XD models.

pickelhaube · Post by **pickelhaube** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:02 pm

Wittman was one man. I think that he went went through about 10 Tigers give or take. His may not have had the zimmerit on the front bow of his tank but others did. Get the Models book of wich I speak and you will see for yourself. I will not lose sleep over this as Googly said the 21st Tiger SHOULD have the whole tank coverd with zimmerit. The most glaring problem with the tank is the lack of the 8 road wheels . Your right, guys did in the field what they thought best. They applied the zimmerit with trowls, shovels and there bare hands. You used what you had.
My opinion is that there should be zimmermit on the panel and if you get the book I am talking about. There will be photos on the pages that I have indicated it will be abundantly clear.
Matthew

ostketten · Post by **ostketten** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:11 am

My opinion is that there should be zimmermit on the panel and if you get the book I am talking about. There will be photos on the pages that I have indicated it will be abundantly clear.

No biggie, I wasn't trying to create a fuss, but this thread started as a review mostly of shortcomings on the FOV Tiger, and I wouldn't want anyone who reads it to get the mistaken idea that the lack of Zimm under the shovel on the FOV Tiger is a flaw or "missing" feature, because it's not. If anything it is more correct and accurate without the Zimm in that location than with it. It seems likely from your modeling pics and from hworth's info that some Tigers did have Zimm under the shovel, but it was by no means common or standard. I'll pass on getting your modeling book, I already have enough, and like I said, they are good general information, but I would be very cautious about drawing any conclusions with regard to what is standard for a particular vehicle based on pictures in a modeling book. BTW, anyone who says the whole tank should be covered in Zimm is just plain wrong.

Yoxford · Post by **Yoxford** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:10 am

FYI gang...

I called Target customer guest services to see where the FOV tiger was in my area, and was told, "it shows being discontinued..."

So I contacted my bud at Unimax and this is the response:

"Bravo Team 1:18 Tiger will not be available in Target in Spring season, but it will be back again in 2008 Fall season.
But all other items in Bravo Team will be carried forward in Spring season and also for Fall 2008."

CRAP...And still can't find it in Michigan.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:40 am

contact your bud at Unimax again and ask him what new items will be available in Bravo Team next spring and fall..

dragon53 · Post by **dragon53** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:52 am

YOXFORD:

Did you Unimax contact give a reason why the Tiger is on hiatus until 2008?

STUKA · Post by **STUKA** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:25 am

well it hasnt even shown up here - maybe this will be a wave to all stores and done - then again - who knows

Yoxford · Post by **Yoxford** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:41 am

No, other than a possible "shoot the works" Christmas blitz and then focus on production of the hot sellers after the dust settles...I did forward aferguson's question and hope to get a more detailed response.

Oh well, back to tweeking 1/16 FOV

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/5518 ... 059fv4.jpg

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8853/picture102xt0.jpg

mediump · Post by **mediump** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:57 pm

Wow, so this was over before it really began

what a shame

I was looking forward to seeing more ww2 armor
I hope they come thru w/ M4 and figs
exciting to think another co. will be making 1:18 germans
I hope those fly better than a lead balloon

Small Scale Military Headquarters

21st Tiger (late) Vs. FOV (mid) Tiger

21st Tiger (late) Vs. FOV (mid) Tiger

tigers

easy..

Re: tigers