Admiral/ Bad Cat's new aircraft in 1:18

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:27 pm

Just seeing that Phantom mould next to the ME-262 puts that plane's size into perspective. It would take up my whole little display table, and I'd be afraid to hang it on the ceiling

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:28 am

G’day All

Now that I am home I have had a chance to research the F4C in a little more detail, the F4C was built from 1963 through 1964 (except for serial 62-12199) and the total production was 635 aircraft.

The F4D is almost identical externally as the changes were mainly cockpit orientated to enhance the air to ground and air to air capabilities of the aircraft. So with next to no alterations the F4D can also be represented by this model. F4D production was from 1965 to 1966 and total production for this type was 741 aircraft.

Using the same un-slotted wings but adding the centreline under chin gun would allow early production F4E (as used by the RAAF under a lease agreement while waiting the delayed delivery of the F111C) to also be created from this model.

I have no suitable references for the NAVY/MARINE type of this aircraft or for that matter the types used but the RAF and the RN but I am sure the F4C with little alteration could also represent these types as well.

One detail that stands out on the F4 C’s and D’s in my reference is the huge amount of stencilling applied to these aircraft by the USAF, as the this image of a F4E demonstrates.

Click on the link below to go to a HiRes image of this picture to see what I mean.

http://www.daveagema.com/images/HiRes/F4.jpg

Hope this helps fuel the anticipation just a little more

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:40 am

yeah that Phantom will be a plaster cracker for sure.....i bet it will weigh nearly double the BBI F-18.

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:50 am

Ooopps

I have just noticed that the IR sensor under the nose is actually the one for a F4D version of the Phanton.

Acording to "in detail & scale F-4 Phantom II Part 1" this bulge is one of the few external visual differnces between the C and D models of the F4. As you can see above the D model bulge is clearly evident on the C model there should be no bulge here as the refernce picture below show.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0775834/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1108017/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1155471/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1154743/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0977171/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0782055/L/

Sorry to point this out

jeffrowse · Post by **jeffrowse** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:16 am

Spudkopf wrote:
I have no suitable references for the NAVY/MARINE type of this aircraft or for that matter the types used but the RAF and the RN but I am sure the F4C with little alteration could also represent these types as well.

The RAF/RN versions used the Rolls Royce Spey engines, which meant a complete re-working of the rear fuselage from the nice curved lines of the US Phantoms' area-ruled fuselage to a straighter mounting tunnel and larger "pop-open" panels towards the rear of the tunnels (one each aboe and below th e
Whilst the Brit's tail was only a little bit uglier than the standard shape's aerodynamically-sweet rear end, the extra thrust gained by fitting the more powerful Speys was lost in the extra effort needed to push the less streamlined shape through the air.
Most other changes were the replacement of American internal systems with their British "equivalents" - the overall effect being that, for most peole, merely removing the under-nose "attachements" and changing the colour scheme for the British ones should be enough to fool most people...

Of course, the biggest difference between the Spey and non-Spey models was that the "normal" powerplant ( I think it was the J-79?) left a lovely great smoketrail behind it...

As noted elsewhere, the 'E was the first Phantom with a built-in gun under the nose but all models were capable of carrying a podded cannon (or three) - normally the standard Vulcan. It also introduced the tailplane leading-edge slats and a variety of other aerodynamic improvements brought about following experience during the air war in Vietnam.

The hardest "straight" conversion would be to the F4F as flown by the Luftwaffe - these did not have the belly-mount troughs for the AIM-7 Sparrow as it was felt that the German birds should not need medium-range missiles - if longer-range warshots were needed, the German aircraft would be in company with other nations' aircraft that did carry medium- or longe-range missiles.
Converting to a recon bird or the F4G Wild Weasel would be even more entertaining - lengthened noses and/or fuselages, plus the other "lumps and bumps" required will keep some of us happy for hours...

BadCatMatt · Post by **BadCatMatt** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:21 am

Could someone with a great knowledge of or experience with ORDINANCE used on the F4 in Vietnam, please post a poll. We'd like to know what types of ordinance you'd like to see.

Birddog · Post by **Birddog** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:32 am

BadCatMatt wrote:Could someone with a great knowledge of or experience with ORDINANCE used on the F4 in Vietnam, please post a poll. We'd like to know what types of ordinance you'd like to see.

That's easy Matt, we want it ALL!!!......

Since it's a C model the M61 20mm Vulcan gunpod would be a great ordinance piece....

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:36 am

I bet this F-4 model comes with some strong landing gear. It is going to be heavy, but VERY COOL!!!

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:17 am

Sabrefan wrote:I bet this F-4 model comes with some strong landing gear. It is going to be heavy, but VERY COOL!!!

Here are some rumors, I will let Jason confirm/deny:

The landing gear on the F4 will be a first and will be very strong.
There will be at least 3 models of this bird over time, with actual tooling mods....
There will be a TON of different ordinance, with the option to swap out. Not sure if this is supposed to be all with each bird, or varying with the various birds, but ordinance will NOT get short-changed.
Basically, anything people have been clamoring for (versions, weapons, etc..) will likely be addressed.

jeffrowse · Post by **jeffrowse** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:06 am

BadCatMatt wrote:Could someone with a great knowledge of or experience with ORDINANCE used on the F4 in Vietnam, please post a poll. We'd like to know what types of ordinance you'd like to see.

As well as a poll, how about links to pics of the hardware? And are you going to include things like ECM pods, laser designators and any other electro-optical add-ons?

Do you want the poll limited to the Air Force birds or include Navy & Marine Corps birds too?

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:34 am

Phantoms in Vietnam were initially sent as fighters but quickly adopted the fighter bomber and close air support role.

Typical weapons loads would be 500 lb Mark 82, Mark 82 with fuse extenders (very common in close air support role), Mark 82 snakeye high drag bombs (also very common in close air support)...all these were usually carried on triple ejector racks or multiple ejector racks.

On top of that, various napalm canisters, the most common of which was BLU-32 i believe, both in finned and unfinned form (unfinned again typically for close air support as the canister tumbled more causing a wider dispersion of the napalm). The gun pod came later in the F-4's vietnam career when it was realized that air to air missiles only were of limited use and would be an excellent option to provide.

To be honest Matt, what i would do is just study pictures of good qualty models of Vietnam era Phantoms, which you can easily find on the internet and note the various ordnance loads they carry, as these models are generally very thouroughly researched and quite accurate.

BadCatMatt · Post by **BadCatMatt** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:34 pm

I guess what I'm asking is, "What kind of stuff do you guys want to hang off this airplane?"

The more precise input we get, the more of a chance we can make it happen. Since we do not do the manufacturing, Admiral does, our role is more of a lobbyist than a creator. But we have to know what to lobby for as the product comes to fruition.

We are familiar with researching an aircraft but want to avoid making the all-too-common mistake of championing what we think is cool as opposed to what the members of the marketplace desire. In short, we want to work for you and sell you a product that will be the centerpiece of your collection for years to come.

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:42 pm

I personally woulld like to see the 20MM Gun Pods, a large center wing fuel tank, and Napalm canasters, it looks like they have already built it to carry multiple bomb racks.

BadCatMatt · Post by **BadCatMatt** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:44 pm

Jericoeagle1 wrote:I personally woulld like to see the 20MM Gun Pods, a large center wing fuel tank, and Napalm canasters, it looks like they have already built it to carry multiple bomb racks.

That's it! This is the kind of info we can put to good use!! About a hundred more responses like this and we'll have a good idea of what ordinance to champion.

Moth · Post by **Moth** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:49 pm

I really like the gunpods.
The fuel tanks that are on the F-4 now look great too.
I dont really know the names of bombs and missiles, but the more, the better. I like when aircraft are covered with bombs and missiles, it makes them look more formidable.

The way the F-4 looks now is great, it just needs the gunpods.

Thanks for playing a part in getting us what we want Matt!

Post by **aferguson** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:57 pm

well, i'd really like a full bomb load of the type i described above (mk 82's, snakeyes, fuse extenders), gun pods, fuel tanks and sidewinders. Napalm cansters are a bonus but they will almost certainly be on the Skyraider, so less important IMO.

Shin Densetsu · Post by **Shin Densetsu** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:59 pm

I think all F-4 releases should have the following as standard:

AIM-9 sidewinder x 4
AIM-7 sparrow x 7
TER x 2
MK-82 x 6
external fuel tank x 3
That way each release is armed to the teeth and ready to kill in multirole mode. A fighter taking the fight to the enemy and fighting its way back

Then some releases could have more additional different weapons added on, for example Marines and Air Force could get SUU-23 gunpods, Navy could get rocket pods, Air Force could get napalm canisters, etc.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:17 pm

Shin Densetsu wrote:I think all F-4 releases should have the following as standard:

AIM-9 sidewinder x 4
AIM-7 sparrow x 7
TER x 2
MK-82 x 6
external fuel tank x 3
That way each release is armed to the teeth and ready to kill in multirole mode. A fighter taking the fight to the enemy and fighting its way back

Then some releases could have more additional different weapons added on, for example Marines and Air Force could get SUU-23 gunpods, Navy could get rocket pods, Air Force could get napalm canisters, etc.

I agree with the multi-role armaments. Sort of like what BBI did with the F-16 and F-18 where they came with missiles, bombs and droptanks and can serve as both fighters or bombers. Perhaps extra ordinance can be included as well.

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:28 pm

IIRC that was the main reason for the F-18 to replace all the a/c it did, self escorted attack missions.

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:30 pm

jeffrowse wrote:
The hardest "straight" conversion would be to the F4F as flown by the Luftwaffe - these did not have the belly-mount troughs for the AIM-7 Sparrow as it was felt that the German birds should not need medium-range missiles - if longer-range warshots were needed, the German aircraft would be in company with other nations' aircraft that did carry medium- or longe-range missiles.

Oh yes they do.........

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:39 pm

I'm hoping that Admiral makes the F-4 convertable to F-4E or F-4 Wild Weasels that carry the Shrike missles.

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:19 pm

G’day BadCatMatt

As F-4C/D operations in Vietnam where fighter, bomber and fighter/bomber then I think the ability to set the plane for each of these roles would give the fans the flexibility to set the aircraft up the way they want it.

Here are some load-out examples:

Pure Fighter:
4x Sidewinders (2 per inner pylons)
3x drop tanks# (one on the centreline)
4x Sparrows* (in Sparrow bays, *if and ECM pod is carried then this would take up one of the sparrow bays)
1x Vulcan Cannon Pod (# delete the centreline tank and replace it with one of these)

Bomber:
Anything up to 12 Snakeyes (6 per wing on a pair of triple ejector racks located on the outer pylons)
2x Mk84 LGBs (on the inner pylons if the LGBs are to be carried then a Pave Spike would be required to be carried in one of the Sparrow bays)

Fighter Bomber:
4x Sidewinders (2 per inner pylons)
6x Fuse extended Mk 83s (1 triple ejector rack per inner pylon)
1x ECM pack (in one Sparrow bay)
1x Vulcan Cannon Pod (centreline)
The outer pylons could be left empty or a pair of Mk 82s on double ejector rack or a single Sidewinder per pylon.

As for napalm canisters I think these look better on the Skyraider.

Just my opinions of what would look nice.

Schuft · Post by **Schuft** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:07 pm

I'm in!! I worked F-4E and F-4G's for 10 yrs At SpangDahlem AB in Germany and George AFB in CA. I'll be converting this into a G model to go with my Spang F-16! Hanging HARMS on these babies. Look for some F-4 Decal sest on teh horizan, with the 52nd TFW leading teh pack. (Note to spud, get cracking

)

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:38 pm

Thanks Spud

That about covers it in my book!

vulgarvulture · Post by **vulgarvulture** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:34 pm

I'm actually speachless. Never in my wildest dreams did I think an F-4 would be done in 1:18 anytime soon.

WOW!

I CANNOT WAIT to see this plane.

Thank you Jason & Admiral!!!

The 'crown jewel' of my collection is on the horizon.

Wahooooooooooo!!!

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Admiral/ Bad Cat's new aircraft in 1:18

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