Best Modern Battle Tank - Military Channel

[Philip]

I too, thought it odd that the Panther was not listed. Almost every book I read lists either the T-34, or the Panther, as the best all around tank of WWII. What I want someone to do is do a computer simulation of tank vs. tank, using several scenarios, i.e. open countryside, bad weather, etc. If we can see the great football teams from different decades play each other, can't some computer whiz try this? Someone would have to come up with the data for each tank. It took 4-5 Shermans to knock out 1 Tiger, or Panther. Hmm? I wonder why? It would be nice for someone to come up with a battle scenario. For example, if the Tiger turret is slower in traversing, then the Sherman might be able to get behind it and shoot it from the rear, before the Tiger can get a good aim at it. Tactics have to play into any battle. If the Sherman can out - flank a Tiger to get a better shot, does this play into it being a "better" tank? It is interesting to note that the British tank crews all said that, given a choice, they would rather be in a Tiger. No brainer.

Concerning the Merkava, the Top Ten Tank special said this:

First produced in 1977. Top speed: 34 mph. Range: 310 miles. The Teledyne turbo-charged diesel engine gives a power-to-wight ration of 14.28 horsepower per ton. Armor thickness: classified. Primary armament: 120-mm gun.

The Merkava's armor cannot be faulted, and it scored the maximum possible in the protection category. But the sheer amount of armor damages its speed and weight-to-power ratio, which gives this Israeli war weapon a below-average score in mobility. The Merkava is complex and expensive, thus it also receives a very low production rating. However, the tank has proved effective in battle, gaining solid firepower and fear factor scores, which ensure it a spot in ninth place.


By the way, the Steelers of the 1970's always win.

[tmanthegreat]

I too, thought it odd that the Panther was not listed. Almost every book I read lists either the T-34, or the Panther, as the best all around tank of WWII. What I want someone to do is do a computer simulation of tank vs. tank, using several scenarios, i.e. open countryside, bad weather, etc. If we can see the great football teams from different decades play each other, can't some computer whiz try this? Someone would have to come up with the data for each tank. It took 4-5 Shermans to knock out 1 Tiger, or Panther. Hmm? I wonder why? It would be nice for someone to come up with a battle scenario. For example, if the Tiger turret is slower in traversing, then the Sherman might be able to get behind it and shoot it from the rear, before the Tiger can get a good aim at it. Tactics have to play into any battle. If the Sherman can out - flank a Tiger to get a better shot, does this play into it being a "better" tank? It is interesting to note that the British tank crews all said that, given a choice, they would rather be in a Tiger. No brainer.

I've sort of done this scenario in my Battlefront PC game. I'm not sure how entirely accurate the settings are, but I have knocked out several Shermans with one Tiger in a head-to-head battle and once held off repeated US armored thrusts with a disabled Panther in a town square. Then again, I also knocked out a Panther with a single Sherman with a 105mm gun, but I sort of ambushed it in that case.

I don't know whether one feature of a tank plays into making it a better tank over the other. The Tiger, for example, had great armor and firepower, but was slow, consumed alot of fuel, and had poor reliability, whereas the Sherman had poor armor and firepower but was fast and mechanically reliable. The T-34 had a good combination of speed, firepower, armor, and reliability. The Panther also had this, but suffered from initial reliability problems and small production numbers. I think that in such ratings, a certain set of general factors (armor, firepower, speed, reliability, fuel MPG, etc.) are proposed and various tanks are held up against those factors.

[rose4472g]

Philip;
Download Steel Panthers for windows, it's free and it will deffinately allow you to compare. I've been playing SP for neerly ten years, beats everything else hands down. For your Scen I'ld suggest the following, generate random maps until you get something that looks good to you (balanced). Then, select formations to give you ten tanks per side, Soviet Company, a short company for everyone else. Then give eeach side a platoon of Mech infantry (you may have to improvise with the Soviets). Be carefull selecting infantry, Panzerfaust equipted infantry absolutely rules. Add some mortars to each side then fight it out.

As I've already done this multiple times, I'll share. Remember Equal numbers here, not historical accuracy.

Panthers totally dominate T-34/76s, Sherman and Cromwell 75s, T-34s speed does cause problems!
They have a descisive edge v. T-34/85s, Sherman 76s, and Cromwell 6pdr
Comets, Fireflys, Pershings, JS2s all do much better (basically if you've got a real gun you can fight Panthers). Tigers Is will fight you close to even, powerfull accurate gun far less vulnerable (don't get cocky the Panthers gun CAN do a tiger)!

Also, in my wargaming experience, five M4(75)s are nowhere near enough to take out a Tiger Philip asked why. Basically it comes down to the gun/ammor scale. How far can he put holes through you campared to how far you can do the same to him. The 75mm gun on the sherman could penetrate something like 60mm vertical armor max(doing this by memory, please forgive errors) the Tiger's Armor went as follows Hull front 100mm, side 80mm, rear 80mm the turret was 110, 80 and 80. See a problem for the guy in a Sherman. The Tiger's gun could punch through an M4A3 frontally basically out to the limits of line of sight. Basically a Sheman hit by a tiger is going to need a lot of dumb luck to survive. The same luck is going to be needed to kill a Tiger with the 75mm.

Note however that the calculas changes with the gun. With APCR the US 76mm and Soviet 85mm guns could penetrate a Tiger at close range. The 90mm quite a bit further out. The 17 pounder was quite capable of dealing with the Tiger a much longer ranges as could the Soviet 100mm and 122mm. The Sherman's real problem is the 75mm gun.


David

[Philip]

Thanks for the info. One animated scenario that I saw was 4 Shermans against a Tiger. The only way the Shermans could compete was to divide up and hopefully, one of the Shermans could get a rear shot. I do have a book on tanks, The Illustrated Directory of Tanks of the World - From World War I to the Present, by David Miller. It states that the military determined that it took 5 Shermans to knock out 1 Panther.

[ltcbj]

If you like any of the Steel Panthers simulations you can easily run a heads on battle, though in an igo/ugo model, between whatever you wish. Microsoft also makes a WW2 sim, Close Combat III, which operates as a real time game.

There are two Steel Panthers games. SPWorld at War (SPWAW) and SPWW2. They can both be downloaded for free. They are different games but both are based on the original SP game. I too have been playing Steel Panthers for about ten years and they are both great games. They can be played PBEM, solitaire or as two person games. These are both the latest iterations of the original Steel Panthers.

[rose4472g]

There are two Steel Panthers games. SPWorld at War (SPWAW) and SPWW2. They can both be downloaded for free. They are different games but both are based on the original SP game. I too have been playing Steel Panthers for about ten years and they are both great games. They can be played PBEM, solitaire or as two person games. These are both the latest iterations of the original Steel Panthers.

The game you should download is WINSPWWII or WINSPWW2. SPWAW and SPWW2 have issues with XP on many (but not all) machines. The WIN versions work on pretty much anything I beleive the OBs are more complete as well. The OTHER SP that might actually more on topic is WINSPMBT. Basically tank combat from 1946 to the near future. Line up your Leos, M1s, Challys and see who wins. I'm told it's Leo no.1 then the Chally and finally the M1A2. The margines are VERY small.

I've played a lot of SP by PBEM (it's been a few years though), it is a blast two player!

I've played Combat Comand II and Much prefered SP. I had a year when my new XP machine would not run SP, it was a VERY dark time I regoiced much when WINSP appeared

David

[ostketten]

I've seen a lot of these "best" tank threads on various sites, and they all beg the same question: Best for what?? From a purely technical point of view the Leo II may be the "best" in many respects, and it certainly has plenty of fans and adherents, but to my knowledge it has never fired a shot in anger, so until it has been thoroughly tested under actual combat conditions this "best" designation is to a certain degree just speculation and conjecture.