Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C Lee

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Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C Lee

Post by aferguson » Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:50 pm

Is there something special about this plane or pilot? It seems a very odd choice for a Dauntless scheme. I can find virtually no information regarding Dauntlesses in the Battle of the Atlantic, nor any info on the pilot, Major Lee.

Usually Oxford picks schemes of important or interesting planes. So is there something special about this plane/pilot?


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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Dauntless » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:03 pm

The same plane was produced by Hobby Master. According to the brief description there was a Marine squadron in the Virgin Islands 1943-1944.
http://hobbymastercollector.com/HA0160.html

Also a Major Christian C Lee was awarded the silver star in the Korean Conflict. He was a Marine Pilot. Chances are it's the same pilot who continued flying.
http://projects.militarytimes.com/citat ... ntid=37341


I recently bought the Atlantic version of the Hobby Master Helldiver, and of course still have the 21stC 1:18 Atlantic Avenger. I've also seen that Easy Model makes a correct version with a large tail Wildcat available in the same Atlantic scheme.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Coreyeagle48 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:31 pm

Greetings:

Franklin Mint also did this Dauntless as part of their 1/48 scale lineup.

One thing I noticed is that I do not think the Oxford version is correct. By this time, this squadron would have certainly been flying later variants of the SBD. One of the changes with the later variant of the SBD was the propeller and hub. The spinner was removed on later versions. Also different were the cowl flaps and the later versions of the Dauntless deleted the large scoop on top of the cowl.

The Oxford Dauntless clearly represents an earlier variant of the aircraft as it has the spinner and easily spotted scoop on the top of the cowling. However, every profile, other model and drawing of the Christian Lee aircraft shows that he flew a later variant Dauntless which looks much different without the propeller spinner and scoop on the top of the cowling.

Perhaps Oxford got the mold from someone else or they plan on doing an early variant of the Dauntless as a repaint, but the features portrayed on the Christian Lee plane are incorrect for a later variant of the Dauntless.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Coreyeagle48 » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:33 pm

This is a photo I found of the Atlantic scheme Dauntless aircraft. Christian Lee's plane is the closest one in the photo identified by the S-1 codes on the aircraft.

As you can see, he is flying a later variant of the Dauntless. Judging by this photo, Oxford got the variant of their model wrong.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... slands.JPG

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by aferguson » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 am

thanks for the info guys but my question still remains: why did Oxford, or FM and HM for that matter, make this model? It has no interesting combat history that i can find......in fact i can't see that the Dauntless did anything noteworthy at all in the Battle of the Atlantic.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Epap » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:17 am

SBDs participated in "Operation Torch" ----the invasion of North Africa----and were useful in suppressing the Vichy air bases which launched numerous attacks on our ships and landing forces for several days. Aside from that they were mainly employed in anti-sub work with nothing spectacular to report. I think the main reason for including this scheme---as with the SB2C and F4F---is its unusual and, in my opinion, very appealing gray over white motif. Whenever one of these schemes appears on eBay, it seems to attract a higher share or watchers and buyers than the usual navy blues. The same observation holds true for the various British gray over white schemes----- at least in my experience.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by aferguson » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:42 am

yes, probably just for the looks...

in fact so unspectacular was the Dauntless' anti u-boat record, that it's not even listed as an allied aircraft used against u-boats on uboat.net, which is a very comprehensive site. I'm not sure there was even a single sighting of a u-boat by a Dauntless, let alone any engagements...

The Wildcat on the other hand, has some history to back up it's pretty grey and white atlantic scheme. They were used extensively, alongside Avengers and participaed in many actions against u-boats. The british also used the Wildcat extensively in anti uboat operations, although in FAA colours, not the grey and white the US used.

Oxford doesn't make a Wildcat, do they? I don't think Atlas had one either, surprisingly.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Dauntless » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:56 am

The only Atlantic Wildcat I've seen Aferg is the Easy Model. Recently I bought the Pre-War and O'Hare Wildcats to see if I liked them and decided they were worth the usually inexpensive price. All Plastic of course, landing gear down, but nice I think. This one looks like it has the larger tail unlike the two I just mentioned.
Image


I too can't find much that these Atlantic patrol SBD's had much if any successes sinking any U-Boats or the like.
The Avenger on the other hand sank at least 30 U-Boats and was more suited to that role.

I find it interesting the color scheme of grey over white. That the Atlantic would have a different palette of colors and atmospheric conditions that would require these sort of colors so markedly different than what is required in the PTO with the different blues.

A similar choice with the all white undersides anti shipping Sunderlands of the British Coastal Command too. Must have worked the best for sneaking up on U Boats.

I would like to get more of these type of Atlantic aircraft but so far just the Helldiver.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Coreyeagle48 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:23 am

Greetings:

I imagine it might have also been made because there is excellent photographic evidence of this particular plane (ie: the picture I posted). What is interesting though is with the photographic evidence, you'd think Oxford would have gotten the variant of the plane right.

The fact they didn't tells me they either used a mold from someone else or possibly have an earlier version repaint in the works.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by aferguson » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:32 am

yes i like the look of the EM Wildcats and will probably get a few of them.

I wish i had the capacity, financial and time/space-wise to get pretty much every plane that's made. But i don't, so planes like the Oxford Dauntless have to be sacrificed if they don't have some merit such as a decent or interesting combat history. Which the SBD does not, in the Atlantic. However, planes like the Oxford Buffalo and Hellcat, while a bit oddball in appearance, both have great histories. The Buffalo was based on Midway and took on Japanese forces in the early stages of the battle (albeit rather unsuccesfullyl) and the Hellcat took part in Operaton Tungsten, the first of several British Navy attacks on the Tirpitz. Tungsten was pretty successful in achieving its goal and the FAA Hellcats played an important role.

I even bought a Corgi Pakistan Air Force F-104 because with the PAF the Starfighter has a pretty interesting combat history...something lacking with other users, including the US (unless you count the Starfighters that were bombed up with nukes, sitting on the runway waiting for orders to take off during the Cuban Missile Crisis).

As for the white undersides......it was found that when hunting uboats, the brighter the better.....any aircraft, regardless of colour, looks dark against a lit sky and is thus easy to spot. White being somewhat reflective helped the planes get a bit closer before being spotted. During the war the British, famously, experimented with using actual lights as camoflauge.....small pinpint light emitters along the leading edge of the wing, adjusted to emit the same amount of light as the sky behind them. It worked pretty well but was never put into combat use.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Epap » Thu Jan 01, 2015 11:54 am

As I recall, it was the Brits who developed the gray over white scheme after much experimenting showed that it was the most effective camouflage when seen from a ship looking up at an angle. The actual scheme, which is never followed by diecast factories, called for gull gray----or dark sea gray, plus slate gray ( a green )--- on top, followed by matte white on the sides and gloss white blending in and going onto the underside.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by USCGMK2 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:28 pm

I've been wanting to get this version from HM, but usually priced high. I was stationed in St. Thomas, USVI from 2008-2011 and the current airport there was an old MCAS (Bourne Field). They were stationed there for Neutrality Patrols (early on) and Anti-Submarine patrols. They also had SB2U, R3D, JRS-1, J2F-2, and SBD's. Major Lee was the last CO from VMS-3, they were decommed in 1944.

The US basically brought the islands up to date when they purchased it from Denmark. The Germans wanted to buy the island(s) to build a sub base there, which would have put them pretty close to the US, but we got them and we built a sub base there (STT). The power plant there was built by the Navy (diesel gens still supply power to the entire island) they built huge reservoirs for fresh water on the sides of the hills, and a couple of forts. Some of the buildings such as shops, hangars, and barracks are still there and in use for local business's.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by USCGMK2 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:32 pm

Also, the Dauntless they were using was an SBD-5.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Dauntless » Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:36 pm

Didn't know those things about the Virgin Islands USCGMK2, interesting.

Yeah this type SBD is not high on my list unless I could get it for a really good price, and not really impressed with the Oxford anyways. May get the EM Atlantic Wildcat, but I pretty much have all that I want in F4F's with most of the excellent Dragon Warbirds. Unlike the EM's with large tails, though the last two late war Dragon WB's are inaccurate with the small tail of early Wildcats. Bought the EM O'Hare because of the famous pilot and really Easy Model is the only one out there in those early 41-1942 markings.

I do really want an HM Atlantic Avenger if I could find one though. Not so easy.

I wish EM would expand soon on the Buffalo to WWII PTO schemes. Soon enough I guess. I have that F2A pre-war yellow wing though, but not really interested in the Finnish one. I don't really want everything out there either. so I pick and choose. Don't think I've seen a Martlet in the EM line-up. There should be one.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Dauntless » Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:50 pm

Forgot to mention how interesting your explanations of British camouflage were Aferg, Epap, thanks. Makes sense though, but why only in the Atlantic? And did the Yanks figure the Brits had it down and or the white seemed to work better only in the Atlantic? For instance I can understand the use of an overall dark blue used on US Navy aircraft late war probably worked better as we got closer to Japan, the deeper and colder sea I imagine was more this color.

Interesting story with the lights though, something I didn't know. The Brits seemed to experiment with all kinds of schemes. The pink Spitfires are quite unusual. As well is the high altitude reconnaissance blue. Though this I wonder if it is the same blue used on the stripped down Mk IX Spits used in the MTO to intercept high flying German reconnaissance aircraft, and is that the same blue on the Spits used to intercept high flying Ju-86's and later attempting to intercept the Ju-388's over Great Britain? Seems as though the MTO blue is more vibrant and perhaps a continuation of what was already the undersides of most British MTO aircraft painted overall and different than the grey-blue used in the ETO?

Another color scheme you don't see much of from even Corgi is the early Coastal Command dark sea green over light sea green with robin egg blue or similar sky undersides. One of my favorites. I was hoping HM would do one more early Mk. Beaufighter like that.

Anyways camouflage schemes and the reasons why certain colors and patterns were used particularly in WWII is an interesting subject IMHO, and could almost have it's own thread. 8)
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by aferguson » Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 pm

imo, to be honest, i think most camo schemes are an irrelevant waste of time. So many planes have intricate schemes...but what for?

Anyone who's been to an airshow knows when you see a plane at a distance it looks like a darkish speck in the sky. You can see it as a speck but you can't tell what colour it is. Not until it's up close can you see colours and by then there's no way you would miss it, no matter how good the camo scheme is.

There are specific instances where camo can be effective (eg planes that fly very low against a water or ground backround and seen from above) but by and large i think as long as you don't make you plane day-glo orange and make sure it's not shiney, it doesn't matter much what colour it is. That's an exaggeration to make my point but you see what i'm saying.

Alot of money and thought has gone into and is still going into designing effective camo schemes for aircraft but i think the money could be put to better use.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Epap » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:22 am

Some comments, guys.

Regarding camouflage on aircraft----especially WW2------AF is right when he says that if often made little difference when the planes were in the air. However, it did make a difference when they were on the ground and likely to be attacked by enemy planes----if they could see them. Also, there were aspects of camouflage that did work to some degree when the planes were in the air. This was evident in their side views and the effort made by the Germans early on and the USN as well are evidence of this. When WW2 began, German fighters sported upper surfaces with dark greens coming all the way down their sides but this was changed for the invasion of the West, with the lower light blue/gray extended up the sides of the fuselage ----to render the fighters less visible from a distance. The early war USN three-toned camouflage scheme was designed with the same thing in mind.

As for Oxford's use of the wrong model, we should note that except for its newer and all British releases, all of the WW2 stuff is based on molds Oxford had made for the Atlas Editions "cheapie:" subscription line. Here, it was common to take a single, simplified mold and use almost any scheme they wanted, without regard to the finer points of accuracy. In fact, they got so sloppy that they did a MC-205 and called it a MC-202----it's still listed by Oxford as a 202 and is the worst diecast model you can imagine.

Finally, regarding the use of the Atlantic anti-sub scheme in the Pacific, it seems that we didn't regard the smaller Japanese submarine force as a major threat----unlike the Atlantic, where defeating the German u-boats was vital to victory. As a result, no special efforts were made to design dedicated anti-sub camouflage schemes in the Pacific.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by aferguson » Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:14 am

while painting the sides of aircraft in lighter colours was an attempt at making them more difficult to see from a distance in the air, it didn't work. For the same reason: the light coming from the sky makes an aircraft look like a dark speck no matter what colour it is painted. My comments also apply to modern camo schemes which are often intricate patterns of subtle shades of grey. Waste of time. But they look cool. Only schemes like lizard camo (eg early a-10 camoflauge) were effective and only when viewd from above while the aircraft was in the air.

Most wwii era upper surface camo patterns (eg british brown/green or later grey/green and german dunkel/schwarz) were designed to make the aircraft harder to see when in the air and viewed from above...not just sitting on the ground.....for that you just need one colour (the overall olive drab approach taken by the Americans).

As to pacific vs atlantic: the atlantic ocean was normally overcast so the backround was whitish/grey. The pacific normally had blue skies so it was felt the grey tones were not needed or helpful. The undersides were still white or very light grey until late in the war when overall blue was introduced to speed up production (same reason the Aussies switched to overall green on their late war aircraft).
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Epap » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:29 am

While I agree with you, AF, about the general ineffectiveness of many "camouflage" schemes, we must remember that we are looking at this in hindsight. At the time, there was a widespread belief that the various schemes did protect the aircraft from being observed and/or identified while on the ground or in the air----at least to some extent. I have seen this often in old articles and books recounting the reasoning given at the time and the various experiments that were conducted ----such as the vaunted U.S. "dazzle scheme" ---- much of which went for naught. Even small things, such as the difference between matte and gloss finishes were important way back in the 1940s. For example, when the USAAF went to all-aluminum the Germans made it a point to paint the leading edges of their fighters in a matte gray and Luftwaffe pilots claimed that this allowed them to distinguish friend from foe at a distance----by the glint or lack of it----which they said was very helpful to them.

About the Pacific anti-sub business, while we suffered some serious losses to Japanese subs----mostly during major fleet engagements or shortly afterwards, at the time our main priority was defeating the German U-boat menace, which was operating right off the U.U. shoreline and might ultimately have blocked or curtailed our ability to supply Britain and dispatch our army there for the liberation of Europe. You may well be correct about atmospheric considerations, the color of the sky, etc. making the gray over white scheme irrelevant in the Pacific, but, so far, I have not read about a major effort to investigate this issue----though I certainly may have missed such an account.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Dauntless » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:44 am

Very insightful guys.

Interesting to note epap, you mention the Germans painting the leading edges of their fighters grey to distinguish friend from foe when the US went to all aluminum unpainted surfaces. I wonder if the Germans knew that after Jimmy Doolittle took over bombing operations the strategy was to lure the Luftwaffe fighters out and decimate their ranks with the bombers used as bait. :shock: I didn't know this till recently. Makes sense that the allies wanted to be seen for this purpose.

I could see where most of the time the upper color would matter the most when viewed from above and on the ground where most vulnerable.
Interesting you look at most of the Hobby Master Kates and the bottom color is aluminum. They were on the deck or at a low level attack so the bottom color I imagine didn't matter.

Funny thing a friend of mine bought a 1:5 scale RC Hellcat in mid war tri color blues. He said he'd get it out there at a certain distance and he had a hard time seeing it. :lol:

I can also see that even the Germans were half hearted with camouflage sometimes. Why go to all that trouble with an elaborate camouflage, then paint the nose in a highly visible yellow? it's a contradiction.

After a while at least in the ETO with air superiority it didn't matter anyways and all or most of the US aircraft were left aluminum. The gain in a just a little more speed mattered if the planes were evenly matched or in the case of a Mustang against a Gustav with a very experienced German pilot could make a difference in surviving a dogfight.
I guess the Germans were finally figuring that out with a bare metal 109. Didn't know they tried it till I got the 1:32 BF-109G 21st Century Toys made, which is an interesting oddity.

Probably some of the camouflage didn't matter that much in the air during WWII, but it sure made it interesting and colorful the attempts at it.
Of course during the night maybe a different story with experiments and adopting black undersides for the Brits, the Germans started out the same but later had their own ideas that seemed to work better for them because they were intercepting and needed a defensive camouflage strategy.
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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by Epap » Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:22 am

One of the interesting aspects of night bombing was the British experience with the camouflage on RAF bombers. At first, only the undersides were painted matte black but soon, this was extended up the fuselage sides. Still, the planes appeared conspicuous from the ground when searchlights sought them out. Finally, they tried leaving the sides matte black but the undersides were given a glossy finish and that worked. When the searchlights scanned the dark skies looking for bombers, matte black stood out against the otherwise transparent blackness, but gloss didn't. It was as simple as that.

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Re: Oxford Dauntless Virgin Islands Pilot Major Christian C

Post by aferguson » Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:08 pm

The germans were very concerned about 2 things late in the war, camo-wise. One was not being seen on the ground, as allied strafers were everywhere. So intricate mottle camoflauge paint on the sides of their aircraft was intended to help hide the planes against the wooded backrounds that were common. The splotches of blue, green, brown and grey blending it with the sunlight filtering through the branches.

The other concern was not being shot down by your own trigger happy flak gunners, who tended to fire at every plane in the sky. That's the reason for the bright yellow markings plus defence of the reich bands and other colourful adornments. It also helped in air to air recognition by other friendly planes.

Night time camo is a whole different ball of wax. In that case it is very possible to make a plane hard to see, if done properly. The natural tendancy was to use black; either flat or glossy and in some cases it works. But the germans learned that light grey with darker mottling was more effective because even at night it's not totally black and totally black aircraft stand out against the small bit of light being emitted from the sky backround and also from the ground. Shades of grey had the effect of helping aircraft blend in better against this little bit of light, rather than looking like black holes.

Glossy black is an effective alternative to shades of grey, but the trouble is it tends to weather quickly and lose its glossiness. Pacific P-61's were notorious for this and the shiney black finish would be dead flat in just a few weeks of operations. Same with the British bombers although it took longer in the less harsh (sun/salt) enviornment.

Natural metal finishes serve many purposes. They save weight (over 200 pounds on a B-17), drag and speed up production time. If you have air supperiority as the Americans did late in the war or the Japanese did early in the war, you can get away with it, but if you're late war Germany/Japan the benefits are not worth having little gleaming targets scattered all over your besieged airfields.
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