Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Dauntless » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:44 pm

The Val color is controversial. I found a site that had actual pieces of a Val that Kenneth Taylor or George Welch had shot down, and the color was a gray white, but there were other pieces of a Zero that were off white too. So both colors possible imo.

Found it again, but the site is shut down, which is a real bummer, so no proof. Don't want to be a fly in the ointment, but I just know what I saw in the color photos.

Here's some other color photos I found. Seems a lot of companies may have gotten the green wrong too on a few planes, but then again there's other greens shown. There is a Claude in white too.
Love that yellow/ orange Rita. 8) Wish I could find one in 1:144, I know Epaps got one.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:13 pm

well first off period colour photos have to be taken with a grain of salt. The colour is often not true on the film of the time, plus exposure and development procedures affected it further. And some of them were never color photos to begin with but were colorized in modern times, with the shades being guesswork.

Some of the mix up with the Japanese green is explained by the fact the army used a more olive green whereas after about mid 43 the navy used the well known bright dark green. But before that the navy used a lighter shade of green, similar the army's tone.

As far as the early war light grey it has been explained as a light grey which was covered in a clear coating to protect from salt water. The clear quickly yellowed a bit giving the color the apperance of a light carmel colour of varying tones.

However, the light blue-ish grey Val i posted on the previous page was news to me. But apparently, much effort has gone into research and it is very possible japanese carrier planes were this colour. Whether that is in addition to the lighter grey or instead of i don't know. And as i said in my earlier post, it's controversial as are all the possibilities, still.

To be honest i've never thought painting your carrier planes a light grey was very good camouflage. They would stand out like a sore thumb against the water. So a bluish grey does make more sense in that regard.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Dauntless » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:03 pm

Now that makes perfect sense. The Vals and Zeroes were a shiny grey /white at Pearl Harbor, then the clear coat whenever it was applied fades later. On a hot carrier deck this probably happened rather quickly.
This I have encountered in the automotive paint profession. I imagine even more so back then it would fade as catalysts or hardeners weren't available for clearcoats like today. It was more like a shellac I presume.
Fascinating.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:56 am

i believe it was some kind of varnish....it's speculation that it yellowed quickly. Samples from planes they've found today have it yellowed but that isn't surprising after all this time. Whether they yellowed quickly back in the day, is open to much debate. As is the base grey colour. However there are descriptions by era pilots of seeing 'yellow' zeros and even a model kit from the 50's had the plastic molded in the correct 'yellow' colour. So it's probable the varnish did yellow quickly.

However, there are no similar reports for Vals that i have ever heard of so maybe they were painted differently for some reason. Kates usually were, so it may be that Vals were too.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Dauntless » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:37 am

Planes of fame in Chino have a Val in restoration. Wonder if they got to inspect it's original color closely?
Looks gray in the pic. Could have been applied later though to avoid corrosion.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:47 am

looks bare metal in the pic to me. They probably stripped off all the old paint that was left. I've found that these restoration places often get the colours wrong on old warbirds they restore, anyways.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Epap » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:40 am

Most of the research that I did after the discussions on the old forum indicate that the Zeros and Vals were probably painted a light tan----almost a faded mustard or beige color. This paint would alter chemically when exposed to the elements. In addition, the Zeros were usually coated with a waxy-liquid covering to protect the paint and make them more aerodynamic which also turned green---or olive---in hue once exposed to sunlight.

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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:34 am

any explanation for why the tan/beige colour was used? Not very good camouflage anywhere, especially over the water.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Epap » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:10 am

None of the reports/articles I read regarding the factory applied color gave a reason for its selection. As a guess, and considering the Japanese outlook towards war at the time ( 1936-1942 ) ,I assume that they always saw themselves as attackers, not defenders, in which case their Zeros and Vals would come darting out of the sky to finish off their prey. The Kate, on the other hand, attacked from just above sea level in its torpedo runs and, accordingly, was often given green blotching over its light mustard or natural metal surfaces to make it less easy to spot. As soon as the Japanese grudgingly conceded that they were the defenders, not the attackers---after the Battle of Midway or shortly after---- their Zeros and Vals turned Green.

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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:22 am

hm.......well i agree with that to a point. But cream/biege/yellow is a pretty odd colour choice, for attacking out of the sky with. Why not pale blue, pale grey or even white, which would reflect avialable light and make you tougher to spot at a distance against a bright sky.

I think the original colour applied was either a very light grey, or a pale blue grey like in the Val pic i posted and then the varnish was applied over it for protection. It's the varnish that yellowed or turned a hue of green, giving the planes their yellow/biege/cream tint. With all due respect to the experts and all the work they put into research, i just don't believe the actual paint colour was a cream or tan.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Epap » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:24 pm

Here are a few tidbits about the Zero/Val light grays.

Before the attack on Pearl Harbor most, if not all of the planes based in Japan were in natural metal. When the order came to camouflage them in readiness for the attack there was some confusion as not every depot had the same paint in stock. Earlier, tests had determined that an light tan or ash color with some brown and green tints was the best, but this was applied only to the planes destined for some of the carriers; the others got a light mustard color.

When James Lansdale examined pieces of Zero wreckage after the war and buffed off the crusting, he reported an underlying olive/gay color. When the captured Zero that went down in Alaska during the Battle of Midway was repaired and test flown, the U.S. test pilot said it had a light gray tinted with green or blue color. The Japanese ace, Saburu Sakai, who wrote a number of books after the war, is reported to have described their color as a light ash. When a crewman on the USS Raleigh examined pieces of a Zero fished out of the water, he is said to have described them as grayish/green. Finally, one of the Mitsubishi design team called the Zero's color "hai-ryokushoku", which means green/gray.

This is the kind of stuff I uncovered when I researched a redo scheme for the green/yellow blotched Kate you see in the picture I posted, above. I'm not saying that it is absolutely definitive but I lean more in that direction than towards the light gray or light blue/gray. This is also ties in with the Japanese Army using a slightly darker gray/green for its planes during the Chinese wars and early in WW2. Again, not definitive proof, but my thinking is that the Japanese in general---army and navy----favored the gray/green motif at this time.

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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:48 pm

just got my Dragon U-2R. As feared, it's not great. I've said many times i don't care for most of Dragon's stuff and this is just another example. First off, it's not black, it's charcoal grey and looks dumb...i'll repaint. Second they hi-lited the panel lines with a strange colour which looks totally unrealistic...fortunately the repainting will eliminate this. Third the canopy is not clear but heavily tinted, almost a dark cherry colour. Nothing to do here but live with it. Very poor.

The Italeri one i got is much better overall and luckily virtually the same size, so they are compatible. The better plan would have been to just buy the Dragon model kit for $15.

I suspect the sr-71 will be the same so i'm staying clear. The altaya one is surprisingly good....just needed a spray with dullcote to get rid of the sheen.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:59 pm

Epap.....that's great info. I don't think we'll ever know for sure. But all the subtle variations of shade that seem to be possible make for some interesting models.

The more i look at my Val, the more i like the colour it came in.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Dauntless » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:46 am

I'd like to get a couple of those Avioni-X Japanese aircraft. Like you said the F-Toys is even more. Bet they would look good next to the X-Plus Zero I bought. Probably in the same league or better detail from the looks of them.

Speaking of color variations, what do you guys think about the new Hobby Master Ju-52 "Operation Mercure"
The production model pics are up.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:04 am

HM is one of those companies with high price tags, whose products i often find suspect. Along with Dragon and Corgi. I think they are all super over priced for what they offer.

HM makes some strange colour choices, at least in the few models i've bothered to examine of theirs. Especially on the Ju-52. It may be accurate but i have never seen a Ju-52 painted that colour, let alone a Crete Ju-52.

Even if accurate it wouldn't appeal to me at all at that price. I guess HM hopes people will buy a dozen of their Ju 52's in each of the wild schemes they pump out.

I've got both of the Altaya Ju-52's and they are pretty decent. One is Crete and the other is Stalingrad. Even though the corrugations are printed on, it works well and the colours are pretty true. Some touch ups needed and for some bizarre reason Amercom didn't use the 2 bladed propellers the original comes with but went ouf of their way to make 3 bladed props on the Stalingrad 52, which is totally incorrect. However, fairly easily fixed.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by cjg476 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:13 am

Well Earl I have three of them and I like them. I'm ready to get some b-24s.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Dauntless » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:42 pm

Yeah I was excited for a new HM military version of the Ju-52, but this scheme I'm not warming up to yet. It looks a little sloppy in the Mule pics, but probably because it's so small and those are close ups. I liked the last Balkans one, granted a little overpriced but I'm happy with that one.

Sure would be nice if Hobby Master came out with a military floatplane version of this model like the 1:72 Corgi version. I'd be all over that. I wonder has anybody ever tried to make a 1:144 custom floatplane Ju-52 from either an Altaya or one of the HM's.
Trying to find a plastic 1:144 German floatplane or something else in diecast that would work. Anybody have any ideas on what would look right? I know I wouldn't want to be tearing up an He-115 just for the floats, but something along those lines is probably the best because it's German WWII of the same period.

Which three Ju-52's did you get Corey? I know you mentioned the Balkans and the air ambulance.
I got Snow White and the Seven Dwarves B-24D a week ago, will probably get the latest PB4Y. That's really the only other one I want till HM comes up with an Olive Drab version that's not an assembly ship, either another Polesti or 8th airforce or something in OD.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by cjg476 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:50 pm

I have the ambulance version, the balkan and the crete version on the way. On kampfgruppe 1/144 blog they said the crete scheme camouflage was also part of an old ju-52 model kit.

Here is the link
http://kampfgruppe144.blogspot.com/2013 ... e.html?m=1

I also want to get the latest b-24, hopefully they start doing other planes.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Dauntless » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:58 pm

Interesting two of those schemes for that model kit have been done by Hobby Master, and it looks like they used the same profile pics for announcements of upcoming Ju-52's.
I like the last one with the snake on the side.

Maybe they'll do a winter Russian Front eventually, though Altaya has.

Like to see other planes too, I think they could kick everyone's butt with a new B-17G, He-111, or even a new B-24J with nose turret. Though probably have to rethink the bombay doors, as they appear to be an unpopular executed feature.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:07 am

what's wrong with the bomb bay doors on the HM b-24?
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Epap » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:21 am

aferguson wrote:what's wrong with the bomb bay doors on the HM b-24?
Instead of dealing with the two display modes separately, by using inserts for the bomb bay doors, HM's tooling designers took a "shortcut" and made the "open" doors part of the fuselage mold. As a result, you see a large bulge on both sides which shouldn't be there, giving the model a "pot belly" look where the doors are molded in. They should be flush with the fusealge sides, not sticking out. Here's a picture:Image

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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:07 am

so i gather that means there is no way to display the model with bomb bay doors closed? Seems more of a goof than a short cut. If you look at pictures, it appears that the bomb doors stick out from the fuselage sides when rolled open. You have to examine carefully from angled views to see that the bomb doors are a bit recessed so that they are flush with the fuselage sides. An inexcusable gaff for a $60 model however. Like i said above, HM, Dragon, Corgi.....all way over priced.

EDIT: HOLD THE PHONE!...lol. I just found this picture of a model of a B-24D Ploesti raid. Looks like the bomb doors might be correct on the HM model afterall. Maybe it was later model B-24's that had them flush? Unless the model is wrong too or i'm not understanding you Epap.

http://www.ipmsusa3.org/reviews2/aircra ... mb_bay.jpg
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by aferguson » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:32 am

ok......i think i've finally figured out what the problem is.

What you are saying Ebap, is that the open bomb bay doors are molded to the fuselage, so that if you put the closed bomb bay door insert in, you can still see the open bomb doors stuck on the fuselage sides. Correct?

So, if one chooses to display the model with open bomb bay, then the model looks correct. But if one chooses to display with closed bomb bay, then the model looks a bit goofy. Correct?

From further digging the bomb bay doors are correct in appearance and in the fact that they stick out. It must have been later Liberators that had the roll desktop type bomb doors that were flush.

The only flaw i can see, is that the bomb doors themselves should have the underside light grey colour painted on most of it, since when closed it's on the underside of the plane and thus painted light grey.
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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Epap » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:00 am

That's right, AF. If you install the insert with the bay doors closed, you wind up with two sets of doors. Moreover, I looked at a lot of pictures when HM announced its B-24 and most of them----there are exceptions, perhaps due to lighting-----show much less of a bulge or none at all, just an outline. Here are a number of samples, including the first picture, which is the closest to what HM has done that I found:Image

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Re: Beginnings of my 1:144 aircraft fleet

Post by Epap » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:02 am

Another B-24:Image

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