Avenger Atlantic Scheme Squadron VT-17

wolf8564 · Post by **wolf8564** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:11 pm

Can anyone tell me if the squadron on this paticular scheme is VT-17?
If not who then and what is there squadron name?

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:42 pm

I have the information in my profile album. Click my website button and check it out. It should be on the last page! Enjoy!

-Ski

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:50 pm

Actually...the Atlantic version is not from VT-17. The "17" is the individual aircraft number and not a squadron or group designation. Best guess is that 21C is trying to duplicate the markings that appeared on the Accurate Miniatures TBF-1C 1/48th scale model that came out a few years ago. The aircraft is reportedly the one used in the sinking of I-52 (yes...a Japanese sub) carrying secret materials to the Germans and sunk after meeting a U-Boat in the mid Atlantic in 1943. The two subs had met to transfer a pilot to the Japanese sub to guide it into the port at Lorient, France. However, our sneaky intel guys (using Ultra) had decoded all the messages and the meeting place and time was know. The escort carrier USS Bogue (CVE-9) launched several TBF's that used depth charges and a homing torpedo called "Fido" to eventually sink the I-52 before her materials could be delivered. The aircraft were part of VC-42 that was assigned to the USS Bogue during that timeframe. In all, Atlantic TBF's have been credited with 30 subs sunk during the war while patroling the Atlantic convoy routes. VT-17 actually flew from the USS Bunker Hill and later the USS Hornet in the Pacific theatre...ergo they would have the standard three-color camo common then.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:49 am

I believe the plane is actually from VC-55 aboard the Block Island....

-Ski

wolf8564 · Post by **wolf8564** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:50 am

Thank You all!

der Vogelfänger · Post by **der Vogelfänger** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:08 pm

Just a quick note: VT designations were/are for Training Squadrons. VT5, for example, flew the T-28 Trojan in the 70's when I was at NAVAVSCOLSCOM at NAS Pensacola. There were other Training Squadrons according to the pipeline taken by an individual AOC (Aviation Officer Candidate/Pilot) turned into an Ensign upon Commissioning. The three pipelines, were Jet, Prop, and Helicopter. The Class ranking, needs of the Navy, and individual preferences/desires were the criterion determining what an individual flew when hitting the Fleet as a newly designated Naval Aviator.

dV

JimBob55 · Post by **JimBob55** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:59 pm

Ski's right, our plane in question is VC-55 off the first Block Island. That was the squadron on board when the BI was sunk in May of '44. VC stands for "Composite Squadron" and that designation was in use 1943-45 and 1948-56. The TBMs were paired with Wildcats as teams in the ASWW role. I believe the "composite" term came about just for this type of operation. I don't know what aircraft made up the later VC's though. Some of the VCs were reassigned from carrier to carrier. There were also several ASW composite squadrons in the Pacific.

Yes, VT's were training squadrons, but only from 1960 on.

In WW2, VT's were definitely "Torpedo Squadrons"; this designation in use from 1930 to 1946. If we see the Bunker Hill Avenger, it was from VT-84 (The BH Corsair was from VF-84) George Bush was with VT-51 on the San Jacinto.

Regards
JimBob

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:01 pm

Sorry guys...but VC-42 and the Bogue have my vote. Here's why...

If you look close, you will see "17" with wings folded at the top center. "21" had a landing incident and crashed into #13 and #17 on the foredeck. The photo caption states..."18 September 1944, this VC-42 TBM-1C has gone over the barrier on the USS Bogue (CVE-9)..." I hate it when that happens! Now that doesn't mean that another "17" wasn't on the USS Block Island.....but I can't find a picture of one. This one picture appears in Squadron Signal's TBM/TBF At War #82...page#29. Small point but I thought you might want to know.

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:11 pm

Almost certain Composite Squadrons were unique to the light and escort carriers. They only carried 'bout 30 aircraft, less then 1/3 that of the fleet carriers. The fleet carriers would have the aircraft to form complete fighting, torpedo, and bombing squadrons. The best the smaller carriers could carry would only make up one composite squadrons of of differant types of a/c

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:20 pm

In regards to which carrier 21st's Avenger flew from, while I'm certainly not certain by any means, the Avenger in the photo above is definetly (SP) not the same one. Their are no large holes with screws visible in the photo.

yuck, yuck.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:11 am

Folkwulfe wrote:Sorry guys...but VC-42 and the Bogue have my vote. Here's why...

If you look close, you will see "17" with wings folded at the top center. "21" had a landing incident and crashed into #13 and #17 on the foredeck. The photo caption states..."18 September 1944, this VC-42 TBM-1C has gone over the barrier on the USS Bogue (CVE-9)..." I hate it when that happens! Now that doesn't mean that another "17" wasn't on the USS Block Island.....but I can't find a picture of one. This one picture appears in Squadron Signal's TBM/TBF At War #82...page#29. Small point but I thought you might want to know.

Nice picture!! All of the escort carriers in the Atlantic had the very same numbering and paint schemes. I got my info from a modeling site, where the insignia next to the canopy was ID'ed as VC-55. Who knows.....

As far as composite squadrons, they were called as such due to the fact that they had 2 or more different aircraft assigned. In the case of the escort carrier units, VC's comprised of F4F Wildcats and Avengers......

-Ski

JimBob55 · Post by **JimBob55** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:50 am

From what I can tell from various photos of the Atlantic Avengers, they are pretty much indistiguishable from carrier to carrier. One exception is a profile depicting a Jan '44 TBM of VC-58 from the Block Island. (I'm heading to work now, and I'll scan that one and post it this evening) Again, squadrons did rotate: VC-58 later went to the Guadalcanal; VC-55 was on the BI when it was sunk.

Other than that, the paint scheme and markings are pretty uniform across what I can see. I believe that just about every squadron/carrier had a #17 plane. The only distiguishing feature of the 21C is the squadron insignia, which I would believe is VC-55. Although I've not been able to find anything on that online (anyone else?)

JimBob

JimBob55 · Post by **JimBob55** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:48 pm

As promised, here's the VC-58 (Block Island - Jan '44) profile: (our 21C version is a different squadron later in 1944)

And the more standard Atlantic paint scheme, this one from VC-42, Bogue:

Both of these are from Osprey's "TBF/TBM Avenger Units of World War 2"

JimBob

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Avenger Atlantic Scheme Squadron VT-17

Avenger Atlantic Scheme Squadron VT-17

Atlantic Avenger

Avenger Squadron

VT Squadrons

Squadrons

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Re: I hate This!

Avenger

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