Battleground 3D Printing Q&A - Updated 3-16-13

[grunt1]

Hey guys,

Project Battleground has been running about a year now and a lot more models have been purchased than I would have thought, especially due to a big spike at the end of this year.

I've received various feedback and encouragement as well as some thoughtful criticism in regards to how things could be improved.

I'd love to hear some more direct feedback, good and bad, in this thread. Please PM if you don't want to say it publicly, but if you can, please post it here.

The topics that seem to come up most often are:

The Price
The positive feedback typically looks like "wow I didn't think we'd ever get one of these in 1:18, shut up and take my money" and critical feedback being more like "$$$!?! I can buy a (insert your next $500 purchase here) for that!" or "21st Century made a X for $XX, WTH?"

The Process
This is an all digital process and it's the most amazing and maddening thing I've ever done. The twist with 3D printing over injection molding is that these designs can change quickly with minimal cost. Hatch cover in the wrong place, fixed on the next version! Gas can facing the wrong direction, fixed on the next version! Etc.. Someone commented that I shouldn't offering anything until it's done.. If you've ever been a 1/35th modeller, you'll know that you are never truly done. There is always a better kit, a better part, photo etched brass add ons, etc.. there is always a detail you missed or could do better.

Every time I think something is done, a photo or a note from someone reveals that little panel that I missed, old 21C figures fit but the new ones don't, can you include some ammo or make the gun elevate. Yes yes and yes! And I love making each one better.... but I'm sure it frustrates someone who saved up and finally got an older version.. what to do?

The Roadmap
This is the one that I'd value input on the most. I've been a member here and in the hobby in general for a long time and watched various manufacturers try to participate in the community in several different ways. Most notably folks like the mysterious BBI Mike who sent the famous "Wait and see" notes to aferg, 21st Century under their many aliases, and Jason from Admiral who was basically one of us.

What I didn't see is that any of them got it exactly right. Specifically I mean the balance of sharing glimpses of the future to generate some buzz, throwing a concept out there to determine interest levels, offering pictures or designs of prototypes in the hopes that those of you with rivet counting critical eyes would spot the somehow overlooked flaws before it was too late, and ultimately the big fun of people posting their own purchases hanging from the ceiling or humming around a diorama.

All of that and somehow not disappointing people when something wasn't made, or took a long time. Getting great response in a poll and then selling 3.

Anyway, hopefully you get a sense for what I'm after.

By the way
To those of you that have taken the plunge and everyone that looks at the website catalog and says.. hmm.. maybe.. Thank you for your interest and for giving something so new a try!

Fire away!

[Razor17019]

Grunt,
The main thing you have that others have not is - delivering the goods!
You mentioned the other people that "represented" their respective companies.
You ARE your company. We are talking to the person that listens to the thoughts of the people on this board and then says - hey I am working on this. You show us actual pics of the item being worked on. Yes, there may be an item left off or turned around, but you are able to improve on your product. Where 21st Century could never do that or it may take them a LONG time to redesign a flaw. But in the end they didn't have enough time.
We are so lucky to have you making the items in 1/18 that never go made before.

I have 2 questions: 1. You only sell your products unpainted, correct? Do you have any plans to sell painted versions?
2. How do you determine your price? They are not even numbers.

Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Razor

[CW4USARMY]

Hey grunt, really like your work, Only comment/question I have is like for the Puma, it is basically 500.00 of plastic! Yet Pickel is making a complete King Tiger for 350.00 out of resin. Does shapeways set the price, and how do they determine it?

Thanks!

[tmanthegreat]

First of all, my hat off to you grunt1 for the fantastic job you are doing with Shapeways I'm a satisfied and a few threads down, you can see my post from December after I built and detailed on of the Kettenkrad kits. All things considered, it was an easy build and came out looking fantastic.

I like the results you seem to be getting with the 3D printing - its allowed for a great diversity of items to be made quickly and easily. I know they are expensive, but I undersand thats what one gets with the process you are using. Its the same with Pickelhaube's resin moulding.

My comments are as follows:
I would love a design to be more "finished" before it is released. What you mentioned with the new designs coming out after customers had already purchased the older version happend with me and the Kettenkrad kit. Its no real problem now as I'm fine with what I have

Is there a way these peices could be better packaged when shipped? Especially given the fragile parts (thin railings, hand grips, etc) it could be very easy for something to break during the shipping.

Tying in with that, anything that could be done to provide strength to weaker parts or more fragile models to make items more durable would be appreciated. Its not like I'm trying to roll these things across the rug, but anything to make them less breakable without too much sacrafice in accuracy would be great!

Team up as much as possible with Pickelhaube. I know its been done in the past, but I see a lot of potential there!

[Jnewboy]

I have already weighed in with you privately and you know I am a major fan of your work. I think it is the future of this sort of thing. My only thought would be to try and make as many separate parts as possible per item, that way painting/detailing is easier. After several mistakes on the Kettenkrad's treads I elected to simply cut the wheels and tracks away from the body with a razor saw for easier painting of the tread. That was hard as the material "Strong White" is very tough stuff. I like it much better than resin though as it is very sturdy. I appreciate all your great work my friend.

[[CAT]CplSlade]

3D is being considered so much a reality that Nokia is offering the specs for the covers to their phones for download so folks with the printers can make their own custom covers rather than buy only from the small assortment Nokia offers.

That was a long sentence.

[normandy]

Grunt, I find this 3-D printing truly amazing. I have a basic understanding of the process but
thats about it; maybe you could explain it a little more for this "old school" custom builder. Oh and
how about pre paint preparation, sanding, priming....what can and can't you use on the this materiel?

The Prices are very reasonable on the smaller offerings (Panzer IV idler wheel, Goliath anti-tank
weapon, bicycle and so on.)
As the complexity and size of a model increase so does the print time and price, this is set
by the 3-D printing company not the designer.
A 1:18 Nebelwerfer is about $70.00 and it's 1:16 resign counterpart about $50.00. By the
time you get to the size of the 1:18 Puma (fantastic looking Model!!!!!) you at $549.29.
If I wanted more then one, I'm over a grand......I couldn't do that. So a this point, we hit a road block.....
......great looking, highly detailed and unpainted model but out of reach for most modelers and collectors.
I'd imagine that as more 3-D printing companies come online and personal 3-D printers become available
prices will come down.

The Roadmap.........anything is possible, the sky's the limit...... but unfortunately so is the price.

This technology along with the current Prototype, RTV mold and Resign production piece (old school )
will keep 1:18 and I dare say modeling alive. Both have their limitations but we can work with that.

Grunt my hats off to you and Pickelhaube and all the others for taking the time to ask us what we want....
to bad that didn't catch on with the "big guys".

Well Done Battleground Toys!!!!!!

[grunt1]

Thanks guys and I apologize for not replying a bit sooner.

I pulled out the key questions and thoughts from each post and will try to knock them out in chunks. Here is the first batch. My responses are marked by the >:

1.

You only sell your products unpainted, correct? Do you have any plans to sell painted versions?

> This question comes up a lot. I don't have any compelling ideas here and suffer from the same challenges as Pickel with his kits in that the only way to do this would be to do it myself. I could do a limited run of finished items like Pickel did for the Horton ,which might be interesting, for those that paid up front for a particular piece. I can see anything from a basic German gray with black tires on a Pak 36, or a simple camo scheme like the Puma has. In all reality, this takes a lot of time and effort relative to what people are used to from Chinese factories so as someone said it may be best to teach people how to fish in this new world. This doesn't exclude the idea of a limited painted run or three, but it's probably the better way to go long term.

> As a future possibility, some 3D printers print in color. The materials are usually poor or crazy expensive today. The current crop of colors are not interesting to us and tend to lean toward basic colors or neons. Colors like German gray, Dunkelgelb, Olive drab, and Olivegrun are not the highest priority colors to get to market for the masses.

2.

How do you determine your price? They are not even numbers.

> Shapeways charges based on the cubic volume of material used by the model multipled by the type of material. For example, a solid one inch by one inch cube would cost $5.00 in the material white, stong and flexible aka "WSF".

Shapeways material costs are market based so they fluctuate from time to time. Most of the time they decrease the price as they figure out a better way to print.

On top of their price, a store owner can charge a markup fee. This is how the store owner gets paid back for their work, and if you sell a lot of an item you can actually make money at some point.

So for the cube example, if the cube was $25 based on the cubic volume of WSF required to print it, the store owner can set a markup fee of $5 which makes the total cost of the item $30 plus shipping. If Shapeways changes their cost of WSF, and the print now costs $23.39, with the $5 markup it would be $28.39. This is typically where the odd prices come to play.

3.

I would love a design to be more "finished" before it is released. What you mentioned with the new designs coming out after customers had already purchased the older version happend with me and the Kettenkrad kit.

> In short, I do the best I can with the first print. Sometimes, and actually often times, I miss details or I skip details that seem time consuming and un-important at the time. Only later do I realize that a particular detail was important based on a time period or historical accuracy. Sometimes new details are simply interesting to do just to make the model better. Adding tread to the Kettenkrad tires is an example of this. Other times I find a better way to do the mechanical parts, as you have seen with the Kettenkrad front end.

The beauty with 3D is that this can all be done digitally and any new prints are "improved" immediately. There is little to no existing inventory to force off the shelf before offering the updated model.

As we all learn to live in this new world, I'm open to ideas on how to make it easier. I would ask that anyone that spots something missing or incorrect please speak up. Rivet counters are welcome here!

I'll commit to do what I can to make the updated parts easy and accessible from a price standpoint for those that purchased the prior version.

I'll also continue to post early photos of items that are being updated so that someone who has yet to make a purchase has the option to wait for the updated version if they prefer.

I'll post another batch of responses soon. Thank you so much for the comments and feedback! Keep it coming!

[TankAce]

Great work on the RSO Grunt. I only wish the cost to produce this can be reduced. I see that other products you have build are very affordable like the Kettenkrad. I can already see that small items will be best seller. I think you should consider casting molds to produce the large vehicles in in resin while producing your prototypes using shapeways.Also you can use shapeways to produce the fragile parts.Some things like tank hatch hinges and mg mount for tanks are simply too thin to be made in resin without being too fragile.
I will also love to see separate track links for the 21st century tanks and halftracks such as Tiger Panther Panzer and Sheman tank. This separate track links can be sold as complete kits or individual for those guys who would like more realistic spare tracks on the front of the tank or protecting the turret. If those tracks can be made as snap-on one with the other that will be even better. The price point that i think will be worth paying is $60-$65 on a tank like the Tiger or Panther, $45-$50 on a panzer or Sherman and $35-$40 on halftracks. I don't know if this prices are possible with 3d printers,but i would like to know you opinion.

[normandy]

Grunt, I like TankAce's idea regarding the tank tracks.
21st did a great job with the "rubber band" type tracks but to make these pieces
of armor look more like models, snap together tracks sound like a good idea.
We've seen Pickel's T-34 and soon Tiger II individual links and section of links make
these tanks look more realistic. The strong white and flexible shapeways product would
be perfect.
I'd also like to see a Sturmgeschutz IV kit, That'd be cool. The only problem....how many 1:18
Panzer IV's are still available? I've got a few set aside for customs.
How about oil drums and gas "jerry" cans, stuff you can put in your upcoming RSO.

[grunt1]

4. Is there a way these pieces could be better packaged when shipped? Especially given the fragile parts (thin railings, hand grips, etc) it could be very easy for something to break during the shipping.

It seems like Shapeways is still learning the best ways to ship and package items. While most items arrive fine, they don't have the perfect system down yet. I've received items that were packed using a pretty wide variety of techniques. Sometimes they throw a group of items in a large ziplock bag and surround the bag with shipping peanuts. I received a big bag of loose goliaths. The goliaths are pretty tough and were unharmed. Other times they build a cocoon around an item with bubble wrap and a bunch of packing tape. A group of Pumas arrived recently that were individually but super tightly bubble wrapped. Some of the curb feelers on the pumas were bent and one was broken off due to how tight the "protection" was on particular units.

The good news is that they will generally replace an item if you contact support and send them a picture. Someone just went through that here recently with a broken Kettenkrad and received a new one. They are also getting much better as you can see in the main Battleground thread photos of the Krupp Protze that just arrived.

5. anything that could be done to provide strength to weaker parts or more fragile models to make items more durable would be appreciated. Its not like I'm trying to roll these things across the rug, but anything to make them less breakable without too much sacrifice in accuracy would be great!

Yes, the key is adding strength without making the details look silly. On new models most of the thinner parts like handrails, antennae and gear hooks that were previously .8mm are now at least 1mm if not up to 1.3mm as a standard. This was done specifically to prevent breakage from both shipping and playing. So far the improved parts are stronger and still look good.

6. Team up as much as possible with Pickelhaube. I know its been done in the past, but I see a lot of potential there!

We collaborate as often as we can. There are some challenges. While Pickel can make some items less expensively than printing, particularly items like hulls and tires that have a lot of mass, know that his prices factor in very little of his labor so they aren't really cheaper, he's just a great guy for not charging for the true value of his work and now that his real work is kicking back in (yay!), the focus is on higher new higher priority items. That's all I'll offer on that, but know we are working together to a fair degree when it makes sense.

[aae83]

How do you determine your price? They are not even numbers.

> Shapeways charges based on the cubic volume of material used by the model multipled by the type of material. For example, a solid one inch by one inch cube would cost $5.00 in the material white, stong and flexible aka "WSF".

Based on Shapeways current pricing, a truly solid 1-inch cube in WSF would be (2.54*2.54*2.54)*$1.40 + $1.50 = $24.44 (+ shipping). Making it hollow and trapping unfuzed powder would save a lot on the price and get it much closer to $5, but I suspect the $5 was a typo, based on your later comments.

-----
My experience:

Shapeways did well for me when my first Kettenkrad came rather severely damaged, with the wires around the front wheel twisted and broken, and the side mirror broken off and missing. They sent a free replacement after I provided photo documentation of the issues.

The second Kettenkrad came in better shape than the first, with only the side mirror broken off, apparently in the packaging phase, since it was still in the package. That was something easily enough fixed by me (or would have been had I not lost the part), so I was happy.

The Kettenkrad is a beautiful model: the detail and accuracy are simply amazing, and I'm very satisfied with the price I paid for it. Thanks, grunt1!

-----
Suggestion:

Consider not building fragile bits directly into the model for larger, "investment" parts. Yes, Shapeways can make parts this way and usually (sometimes?) they survive the cleaning, packaging and shipping phases, but it seems awfully risky to attach a fragile bit costing pennies to a large sturdy piece costing hundreds of dollars. I'd suggest making a cheap protective tree of the fragile bits and locating sockets on the expensive piece for inserting them.

-----
Other thoughts:

There may come a time when Shapeways has their process and technology optimized to a point where large models can be produced at a price to compete with resin kits, but I think that's a long way off yet. To me, the approach that makes the most sense is to use CAD and Shapeways to produce accurate part master patterns that are designed for production and final part assembly, to surface finish those patterns so the end consumer doesn't have to address surface finish issues, then to make molds and cast parts for production.

Yes, the molds and patterns cost money and time, and there is labor required to cast the kit parts, but the material cost is so much less than Shapeways production that, in the final tally, I think resin kits could be cheaper. For comparison purposes, casting resin is around $0.06 per cc, compared to $1.40 per cc for Shapeways WSF. The material used to produce a $600 complete ready-to-go kit on Shapeways would cost about $30 from casting resin, but that is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

For a more apples-to-apples comparison, consider this: a successful production run of 20 resin kits at the same $600 price would provide a budget of 20*($600-$30) = $11,400 for: design differences for model design vs. master design; producing the molds; paying for additional kit production materials (wastage, consumables); labor costs; and profit.

Someone like pickelhaube who understands the costs of large resin kit production would know if that might be a worthwhile endeavor; profit might have to be sacrificed to ensure that 20 kits would actually be sold, for example.

Another thing that would have to be sacrificed is accuracy of final model detail: there are details producible via Shapeways that cannot be cost-effectively produced via resin casting (and some not producible in resin at any cost). Thin, unsupported wires are an example. One would have to judge whether the sacrifice of those details would reduce the market enough to make the project unprofitable.

-----
All in all, those are a lot of words to consider: I hope they're helpful.

Your talent, models and productivity are amazing, grunt1: keep your models coming, I say, and may battlegroundtoys be very successful for you!

[grunt1]

7.

My only thought would be to try and make as many separate parts as possible per item, that way painting/detailing is easier. After several mistakes on the Kettenkrad's treads I elected to simply cut the wheels and tracks away from the body with a razor saw for easier painting of the tread. That was hard as the material "Strong White" is very tough stuff.

> More thoughtful part separation is interesting.. I am trying to maintain the balance of not making these full models so that they are accessible to more people, but fun in that handlebars, doors, etc.. all work like the real deal. Right now the focus is on separating working mechanical parts only. Only distinct parts are created if they somehow move mechanically or detach like shovels or stowage. Taking tracks off just to take them off adds one form of complexity and assembly but I agree it removes another by making painting easier.

One approach you might try is to bathe the item in Rit Dye. If you just need a basic gray or black base to get into all the little nooks and crannies to cover up the white, this works well. I had great success with it on Pickel's T-34 track links. Ultimately I would like tracks to be working on most vehicles but need to do some more design work on that as past attempts have not worked out.

8.

I like it much better than resin though as it is very sturdy.

> Yes, WSF / White Strong and Flexible is really an amazing material especially for larger items like military models and toys. I've dropped my Pak 36's several times and they just bounce a little bit and are ok. Don't try this if you don't need to, I'm sure murphy will cause your item to land on the most fragile part but generally it's tough stuff.


9.

Grunt, I find this 3-D printing truly amazing. I have a basic understanding of the process but
thats about it; maybe you could explain it a little more for this "old school" custom builder.

> Yes, I'm planning on doing a tutorial of the whole process. In lieu of that for now, here is a video links that show a few of the steps. There are two different technologies, SLS and ABS, that represent the majority of printers. I use SLS which is where the WSF / white strong flexible material comes from. The cheap home printers you can get use ABS which is inexpensive but has limited detail and involves lots of putty and sanding, at least today.

SLS demonstration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgGQ6yZ94Tk




10.

Oh and how about pre paint preparation, sanding, priming....what can and can't you use on the this materiel?

I'd like to do a how to and maybe a video on this as well. For times sake here is some basic information. Just about every classic modelling technique you may know or find works on WSF. Exacto knives, CA glue, Acrylic paint from Tamiya and others, via brush or airbrush, etc.. Some special techniques that I've learned that work really well are:


Prep
The good news about WSF is that there is no flash to trim and as you can see in the photos there are generally only a handful of parts to attach and most of them snap fit without glue. The only bad news is that because WSF is done using an SLS printing method, there is a powdery residue on the model. It looks a lot like powdered sugar, but be careful if you end up with a pile on your desk as it could be misinterpreted as a nickel bag of something! Anyway, the there are three ways I use to remove the powdery material. A paint brush does a good job of acting like a little broom to sweep the powder out of cracks and tighter areas. You can also, if you have one, use an airbrush to blow the powder out of areas like barrels and behind tracks. The third way that I don't use often, is to rinse the item in cold water. The challenge with just warm water is that you still need some agitation on the parts to free up the powder. Please note that WSF does flex when it gets warm so using a heat gun or really hot water will allow parts to bend. This can be a good thing if you are trying to straighten a handlebar or pop a part together, but can result in warping if it gets really hot.

Stepping
One issue that may appear on more rounded or sloped parts on a WSF model is a phenomena called stepping. Because the models are printed in really thin layers, sometimes you can see the actual layering. I've found that most of the time it fades away visually after you apply paint. Sometimes you may need or prefer to sand them down or apply squadron putty if the stepping is more noticeable.

Modifying a part
Exacto knives, sanding rods and paper, as well as the good old dremel all work great on WSF. Other than it being a bit tougher than classic plastic, it behaves pretty much the same way so I haven't had to come up with any new tricks in this regard.


Glue
I started mixing CA glue and styrene glue on plastic models a while back because the combination results in a much stronger bond than using either one of them alone. I'm no scientist, but as far as I can tell the styrene glue melts the plastic a bit and the CA (classic super glue) not only does it's superglue thing, but because the surfaces of the plastic are slightly melted from the styrene glue it makes a superbond when it dries. I've repaired a lot of high stress parts like propellers, antennae, and running gear with this technique and am really happy with it. I've continued to use it with WSF and it performs equally as well here.


Paint
- I use Tamiya acrylic paints with an Aztek airbrush. I don't do anything differently on WSF than I do for Pickel's resin kits or a classic ABS plastic model. One trick I've learned to deal with nooks and crannies is to use Rit Dye. Rit dye is a powered dye that is available in the laundry soap section in your grocery store. It's a powder in many colors that you pour into warm water to make dye. I bathe the more complex models or parts in black dye so that all of the little hard to reach areas in a chassis or on the inside of a gun mechanism, the barrel, etc.. get a nice dark color so that the white doesn't show. Once it's dyed and dried, I then start painting it with a base coat like dunkelgelb or german gray with the airbrush. This gets a pretty basic 21c quality paint job done. The others on the board like Zelda, Robbie and Jnew can all share their techniques to get better shading and weathering, they amaze me.

[grunt1]

Oh and thanks Aae, those prices were just to show the value of shelling a solid from a relative standpoint. I didn't do actual math so thanks for adding that finishing touch!