Battleground Toys 1:18 Puma - Updated 3-23

[MG-42]

* I personally like the open top 234/3 , but will the 234/2 you're doing , have any working hatches ???


............... Thanks for your time Pat


- MG

[grunt1]

The other 234's are logical next steps after this one because they only require a new top to be created so my thoughts are headed that way. I like the /3 as well! The top hatches on the turret will be separate parts and attached to the sprue. There are no hinges, but maybe PH can make some small generic ones for hatches in general. His steel pin based T-34 tracks and hinges were excellent!

The price is the bad news, at least at the moment. The cost to print these is purely based on the amount of cubic mm of material required. At the moment it would be about $1000. (Holy crap right?)

Sticker shock is pretty normal with 3D printing. Now the model needs to be fully optimized to reduce the volume as much as possible. If I can't get it down to a reasonable price,(think along the lines of PH's full builds), then we're going to look at casting from the prototype.

[plasticboy]

If I can't get it down to a reasonable price,(think along the lines of PH's full builds), then we're going to look at casting from the prototype.[/quote]

Totally agree! Casting is the only way to do, otherwise people can't afford to have it.
Amazing!!!

[normandy]

$1000 Why is the cost of 3D printing so high. I thought it would be the way of the future.....folks printing 1:18 King Tigers and things like that.

[paulpratt]

So, after these are 3d modeled and a master is printed (after optimizations, etc) why can't they be cast in resin?

[aferguson]

i believe that's the plan, Paul. Unless they can be made much more cheaply via printing.

[pickelhaube]

So, after these are 3d modeled and a master is printed (after optimizations, etc) why can't they be cast in resin?

[gburch]

$1000 Why is the cost of 3D printing so high. I thought it would be the way of the future.....folks printing 1:18 King Tigers and things like that.

It's print time. The very high resolution printing you get from Shapeways is sloooow. While the machine is printing this, it can't be printing something else, and Shapeways' business model has to be based on their calculation of the cost recovery and profit they need to cover a machine that probably cost them in the high tens of thousands to low hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As grunt says, there are tricks you can do to reduce material from the model to cut down on print time. But it's a painstaking process that, for me at least, requires a lot of trial and error.

The cost will come down, as 3D printing technology continues to advance. It's early days yet with regard to this technology.

[pickelhaube]

I thought that there would be a lot more buzz about this Puma. I know I was excited.

I had a tinie tiny percent of input in the development of this project.

Grunt and I possibly will be working together in this project and hopefully many others.

The thing is this. Almost any project can be made by a 3 D printer now a days.

Skyworks ( Skyjerks ) has been using them for prototypes for years.The Hurricane ,Tony , F-14 landing gear and most of the parts for the now STOLEN A-10 PROJECT.

Jack was not making the parts he was subbing them out to his 3-d printing connections.

Anyway it cost BIG money to have a prototype made by a 3D printer and untold computer work to have the machine programmed.

It usually takes me about 2-3 weeks to make a prototype. Most of all of you guys have jobs. How much would you earn in 2-3 weeks ?

So the price of $1,000 is tons of money but the machine can make it in about a day or so. But there is tons of computer time to program the machine.

Anyway hopefully Grunt and I can get together on the Puma and try to get it out at a reasonable price.

But it would be nice to see if there is more interest in the Puma before we jump into it.

[aferguson]

i think there's lots of interest in it. Most are waiting for price details. Price is the critical factor in thse customs, making or breaking their sales potential.

i made a couple of suggestions in your tank poll thread regarding you and Grunt working together, how to reduce costs etc. As far as programming the prototype, is it not possible to laser scan a 1/35 model and then enlarge it by 35/18 to produce the software for the 3d printer to make the prototype from? Would save a lot of work and time if scanning can be done. Just build up a model and scan it.

While the cost might be higher this way, the time and energy saving may be worth it. So, if a prototype is going to cost $2000, with scanning and printing you simply factor that cost into price by dividing by expected sales.

If the price can be kept low enough, sales will boom. PH is selling about what 10 or so of each full build tank at $300. If the price could be halved, sales would by far more than double...probaby grow tenfold.

There are many avenues for selling these things. Aside from this board and F118th, there is Ebay, Etsy and a number of online retailers who may carry the kits, much in the same way that MTS carried Skyworks stuff.

[Crazy Kraut]

Much interest for the Puma here in g. o. Germany

[TankAce]

I am interested since day one. The 1/16 community has one on the works as a RC model.
I heard that it will cost $700!! That is one of the reason why i stay in 1/18 scale.
$300.00 is Ok with me based on what the cost of my 1/18 222 armor car.this one is bigger.

Keeping the cost down is important. The less expensive,the more sales.
Like one of the forum members said.Selling this kits at ebay will promote sales of this particular item and others made by the same seller.That is how i found about picklehaube in first place,in ebay. Auction is not always the best way to get what is worth.
Buy it now stays on sale for one month and it cost 20 cents a month.
There is a Hetzer 1/16 resin kit on ebay for the last 3 or 4 month.They have sold about 30 of them.

I heard some member mention one time here on the forum about making the kits in 1/17 scale.That may double the sales because the 1/16 collector of static models will buy it as well.
I personally don't mind the vehicle slightly off scale since i have always believe that
3 3/4" figures are actually 1/18 scale, and 4" figures are 1/17 scale.The figures will fit even better!

[aferguson]

yes that was in the early days of this hobby. I always thought it was a sharp idea, to make 1/17. Was it not the person who runs build-a-rama who had that idea, but didn't pursue it.

Of course the flip side is that 1/17 might not appeal to anyone, being too small for 1/16 guys and too big for 1/18 folk. It'a about 6% off from each scale.

[pickelhaube]

I heard some member mention one time here on the forum about making the kits in 1/17 scale.That may double the sales because the 1/16 collector of static models will buy it as well.
I personally don't mind the vehicle slightly off scale since i have always believe that
3 3/4" figures are actually 1/18 scale, and 4" figures are 1/17 scale.The figures will fit even better!

To tell you the truth this idea makes me a little leery. Most of the guys get my stuff because it is 1/18 scale. It does make sense what you say.

But I would not want to take the risk of building something and it not selling.

Every time I make something there is always the fear of it not selling. That is why I always put the polls up and test the water.

1/17 scale will compound that fear.

[normandy]

I'm still in the Puma and its variants will make great additions to any 1:18 collection!

[smittyrob64]

Hey Grunt1, Your Puma looks great, I'm interested, I've wanted a Puma and sdkfz 234/1 in 1/16 or 1/18 for a long time, the best looking of the 234 variants.

What program are you using to design the parts, solidworks?

Could we see some more pictures?

[maritime96]

I am definitely still interested in the Puma, as well

[1958Zelda]

count me for 2 a least.

[grunt1]

Thanks Maritime, I will post some pics this weekend. Note that they will be minor updates as the goal right now is to reduce the material volume as much as possible, not add any true "features".

As for tools, I jump around between Sketchup, Blender and 3ds Max depending on what needs to be done.

Zelda! Happy to know you are in for a pair. I'm still anxious to see what you've done with the Nebel and friends! Any updates? 8D

[smittyrob64]

As for tools, I jump around between Sketchup, Blender and 3ds Max depending on what needs to be done.

Good to know. I'd like to try making parts from a 3d render as well.
I made a Puma in 3ds max, not that I intend on making a Puma, but have a few other things in mind.

[grunt1]

Nice! I'd suggest trying something simple and about the size of the Lafette tripod I did. Make sure everything is at least .7mm thick or in diameter and in a single shell. Then work your way up. The key is that this process has little to do with the modelling itself, it's all about the printing. Very similar to a 1:18 hand built prototype costing about $3-5k versus the tool or mold costing $40-$50k. So get the printing right, then do bigger or better models.

[grunt1]

Or heck even that star antenna with the bracket would be a great easy mod for the Puma, or several Panzers and a good super simple start to the whole printing process.

[normandy]

I found this link on the Sd Kfz 234 / 2 Puma, some good intel for the modeler or customizer among our ranks.
http://www.panzernot.net/wp-content/upl ... umaEng.htm

This one has a few good photos I've never seen.....
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/deckar ... 183364079/

[grunt1]

Thanks Normandy, the first 5-10 shots alone are a wonderful study in the tire tread which was a particularly interesting part of this adventure. There were a couple of shots where multiple tire types were used on the same Puma, which makes so much sense in the field but I hadn't seen or noticed that before. There was also a great shot of one running with only 3 tires on a side. Guess one spare wasn't enough! That and the turret numbering and placement options will be really helpful when these start to be built.

[Jnewboy]

I heard some member mention one time here on the forum about making the kits in 1/17 scale.That may double the sales because the 1/16 collector of static models will buy it as well.
I personally don't mind the vehicle slightly off scale since i have always believe that
3 3/4" figures are actually 1/18 scale, and 4" figures are 1/17 scale.The figures will fit even better!

To tell you the truth this idea makes me a little leery. Most of the guys get my stuff because it is 1/18 scale. It does make sense what you say.

But I would not want to take the risk of building something and it not selling.

Every time I make something there is always the fear of it not selling. That is why I always put the polls up and test the water.

1/17 scale will compound that fear.

I think the 1/17 idea is a great idea!

1/18 collectors would buy it, I have no doubt. What other company makes anything new in the scale

Serious collectors that have the money to buy it would rather have a Puma in their collection than not have one because its 14.41 inches long (1/17) and not 13.61 inches long (1/18)

BUT you will have tons of buyers from all over the world wanting it for their 1/16 collections!!! Especially if you can keep the kit at or under $200 as you can already get a 1/16 Puma for $179.95 Euro as a resin kit http://www.store-juckenburg.de/catalog/ ... cts_id/206

that comes out to $235 US at the moment plus about $50 US in shipping.

If the kit is really going to cost upwards of $300 than you are better off just making it 1/18.