um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

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aferguson
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um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by aferguson » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:54 am

http://hyperscale.com/2007/features/a6m2bbs_1.htm

While researching the idea of making one of my BBI Zero's with folded wingtips, i came across this.

This modeller is asserting that this is the correct colour of all early war Zero's. I know there has been a lot of changes in opinion the last few years, but this?

Why on earth would the Japanese paint an ocean going plane carmel brown?

Any comments?
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by chunks » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:25 am

The Japanese used organic resins to protect the metal rather then as a camouflage. The great folks at j-aircraft have more at http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/amer ... ameiro.htm. It's also a great site for modelers as well as researchers.
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by aferguson » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:53 pm

interesting.

i still find it very hard to believe that until now, the 'true' colour has not been known. With all the thousands of eye witnesses, on both sides, who would have seen carmel coloured zeros, how is it possible that for 60 plus years, everyone has been of the opinion they were a light grey/ light greenish grey? The two colours are not even close.
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by chunks » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:39 pm

For quite awhile, starting early in WWII, there were reports of yellow or golden zeros. Remember the '50's Aurora Zero molded in "authentic yellow"? Over time no one believed that those reports had any basis in fact and the colour slowly became light gray in popular wisdom. Of course yellow and golden weren't quite right either given the quick views during combat, but given the nature of the resins used seems to be more accurate. Just my view anyway.
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by aferguson » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:00 pm

ok, i'm stressing then. All my Zero's are the wrong colour..
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by flyboy_fx » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:03 pm

BRAIN CAN HANDLE THE INACCURACIES! *Dies*
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by cjg476 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:13 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by parrish333 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:05 pm

aferguson wrote:interesting.

i still find it very hard to believe that until now, the 'true' colour has not been known. With all the thousands of eye witnesses, on both sides, who would have seen carmel coloured zeros, how is it possible that for 60 plus years, everyone has been of the opinion they were a light grey/ light greenish grey? The two colours are not even close.
Right - thousands of people who flew, serviced, or fought against them survived the war. It amazes me how things like this are so debated. Not that I know the definitive answer - but it seems like it can't be so hard.

However, these appear to be original color photos from the period:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A6M3_Munda_1943.jpg
http://www.ww2incolor.com/japan/C__pia+ ... 7+0+2.html
http://www.ww2incolor.com/japan/C__pia+ ... tled2.html
http://www.ww2incolor.com/japan/ea+_5_.html

The zero I have hanging in my home can be one of those :)

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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by chunks » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:47 pm

Agreed, these will always be debated, that's why I like this kinda stuff. Here's a page with some artifacts and translations into english. On this page they state early zeros.

http://modelingmadness.com/earlya6mcolors.htm

Of course colors never survive reproduction and it's even worse taking into account everyone's monitor settings.

Aferg, for what it's worth, I'm sure your Zero's are fine. This will always go back and forth as new and more info comes to light. Even then of course one needs to take into account age, time, source...... :D
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by aferguson » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:23 pm

im not really worried about it. I have loads of inaccuracies in my stuff anyway...it's all about representation and fun to me. This reminds me kinda, of the dinosaur figures i collect. I'll get a nice figure and then a year later read how new information has come to light that this particular dinosaur had feathered arms, or the plates were in a different spot etc., making the figure 'obsolete'. But i still keep it as it's interesting in its own right to show how things were once thought to be and new information may reveal that it was right afterall, someday.

As for parrish's pictures. It's kind of hard to argue with those. No way those could be carmel colour under any circumstances. You can tell by sky and water colours that the colour in the pictures, while not perfetc, isn't terrible either. The third one looks much the colour of the bbi zero. The fourth one i could see being a light carmel colour as the deck should be a darker and oranier shade, indicating the colour of the zero should be too.
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by norman888 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:50 pm

I would not take any of those color pics too seriously as I have seen them all in B&W before. There has been a recent explosion of so-called WW2 color pictures so be very skeptical.

Maybe this carmel camo was to blend in with a carrier deck :lol:

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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by Mad Sam » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:32 am

No new shades for me at the moment thanks!

I'm sticking to my own personal view that the Light ash grey is an untreated aircraft, and the Ameiro shade is the result of varnish/stain/sealer coating probably giving a pale green shade similar to the two 1/18 BBI Zero. - Which on all the photo's I saw before I purchased them, looked as though they were Light ash grey, but when they arrived, both were very pale green.

I see what the sites quoted above are saying, but I just don't think there's enough certainty, and as to varnished items looking yellow or brown after XX number of years, well isn't that a problem we encounter with certain types of varnish nowadays?

Just my opinion

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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by aferguson » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:04 am

interesting idea that the varnish could have yellowed (or browned) over time....sort of like dullcote does. Perhaps explains a bit of the colour discrpency.

As far as the shade being the japanese word for 'carmel' that could easily refer to how the varnish looked when it was wet and in a container. Could dry a very different colour however....possibly a clear colour that yellowed/browned with age or sun exposure.

I thought that the colour was once described as 'sea foam' which implied a light greenish colour, similar to the BBI Zeros.

However, one thing i've always wondered about the early war japanese planes was why on earth they would choose ANY of the proported colours for their aircraft. None are very good camouflage (although i guess the light grey would be ok in the sky....but nobody was doing 'air superiority' type camo back then). This varnish notion makes a lot of sense now that i hear it and answers that question.
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Re: um....was this the true colour of Zero's?

Post by Dauntless » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:08 am

...agreed, resin, varnish, or even these days a clearcoat over a single stage or non metallic paint will darken it. Depending on what's in the original paint like zinc chromate, which possibly was mixed with other colors for corrosion protection on the outside, the addition of a topcoat can change the color considerably.

In the automotive painting world this can get real tricky when trying to match an original single stage finish on an older car, as a topcoat to cover a blend can blush or darken it.
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