1/18 Ho-229 Project Build ( Retired ) !!

[Jnewboy]

To give a size comparison, many of you have V-1 buzz bombs in 1/18....

Here it is next to one:

[normandy]

Great news Pickel, approximately 2 more weeks , sounds good to me. Thanks for taking on this project.

These past 11 or so posts have been interesting regarding the wings stability, markings and conditions during the final months of the war in Europe. Varying points of view offered and reply's and all done in such a civil manner. We've got a great site!

Now, a Natter would be cool.
As if Matthew needs more on his plate . As stated, its not big... and its not being made by anyone in 1:18. I'll vote for it.
But for now the Horten is all I want.

[pickelhaube]

In the Horten book I have , there is a picture of OXEN pulling one of the prototype flying wings to save on gas.



Here is the coolest picture ever of the flying wing. They are uncrating it in Indiana. Right after the war.

Talk about Roswell . It looks just like a flying saucer. Maybe this started all of the hub bub.

[Jnewboy]

Very cool picture Mathew, the onlookers are in AWWW!!

[normandy]

It certainly looks unearthly.

[gburch]

Here is the coolest picture ever of the flying wing. They are uncrating it in Indiana. Right after the war.

Talk about Roswell . It looks just like a flying saucer. Maybe this started all of the hub bub.

Excellent insight! As the concepts of the atomic bomb -- identified with New Mexico at the time -- and the Nazi "wonder weapons" seeped into the popular imagination in the late '40s, such a thing might very well have been an element of the "flying saucer craze" of the time ...

[aferguson]

that plus the fact that the germans were working on actual flying saucers (called flying discs at the time), some of which had mock ups or were partially constructed. No doubt some of that material was brought back to the US as well and experiments were conducted. All the secrecy being prompted by the threat/competition of the soviet union.

The timing of the whole ufo/roswell thing is just too coincidental for it not to be fall out from wwii german wonder weapons.

[gburch]

that plus the fact that the germans were working on actual flying saucers (called flying discs at the time), some of which had mock ups or were partially constructed. No doubt some of that material was brought back to the US as well and experiments were conducted. All the secrecy being prompted by the threat/competition of the soviet union.

The timing of the whole ufo/roswell thing is just too coincidental for it not to be fall out from wwii german wonder weapons.

And then there's this:



which my dad was working on at the time ...

[normandy]

The timing of the whole ufo/roswell thing is just too coincidental for it not to be fall out from wwii german wonder weapons.

The Vought V-173 has got to be one of the oddest, yet coolest looking aircraft from that era. I had no idea it's design was started in the 1930's.

[pickelhaube]

Work has resumed. Here is the original cockpit cage.







Here is the reworked one.I had a few issues to the fitting. The front area did not fit into the nose properly so I had to make so it can. Also the seat was a major pain to fit in the aircraft body.
So I had to hinge it. By doing this I had to hinge the joy stick as well . Hinging the joy stick made it much easier to fit the figure. Plus by being able to move there are less chances of snapping the stick off.

I also omitted the rudder pedals ( ? ) You will never be able to see them and if they are there you would have trouble trying to fit the figure in.

THAT AREA IS TIGHT

Nothing is ever easy. I still need to clean up the joints a bit but this is probably the only thing that is actually done on the project.

[normandy]

Matthew, that is a piece of sculpture! I can't believe the amount of work that went into just this section.
Oh and thanks for getting us back on topic..... ..........
Here's my contribution..................

[pickelhaube]

Dude , were do you get this COOL pics ?

I love that painting

[Jay]

In flight footage. Looks legit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBnBSJ9b ... re=related

[aferguson]

that is being towed at best or a fake most likely.

[normandy]

Pickel, how about this one?

[pickelhaube]

I like that one as well. But the fire and warfare and stuff is cool.

[gburch]

Pickel, how about this one?

... an image from the eastern Caucasus front in an alternative history in which Barbarossa started a few months earlier, Moscow and Leningrad were taken in the first campaign season, Stalingrad didn't become a quagmire, Overlord failed in the summer of 1945, and the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht are developing tactics in the winter of 1946-47 to deal with the accelerating atomic bombing campaign being carried out by the Eighth Air Force against the Fatherland ...

[normandy]

I still have no idea which paint schemes I'll pick for my Hortens.... anyhow heres another cool pic....

[aferguson]

"and the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht are developing tactics in the winter of 1946-47 to deal with the accelerating atomic bombing campaign being carried out by the Eighth Air Force against the Fatherland ..."


um, and what tactics might those be? I don't see that there would be much they could do about an 'atomic bombing campaign'.

[Jay]

Been thinking of paint schemes myself. I'd like a historically accurate scheme. My first guess is to just go with "official" german prototype colours.
RLM Black-Gray 66 for the cockpit
RLM 02 for the body and wings.
Although didn't prototypes after 1942 go with natural metal, which would leave the plywood Horten in a bit of a grey area. Maybe it was left to the prototype builders to decide.
I would imagine either a basic grey or green though with the cockpit being black or unpainted?

[[CAT]CplSlade]

"and the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht are developing tactics in the winter of 1946-47 to deal with the accelerating atomic bombing campaign being carried out by the Eighth Air Force against the Fatherland ..."


um, and what tactics might those be? I don't see that there would be much they could do about an 'atomic bombing campaign'.

Yes, I imagine the first few bombs would take out the remaining major cities in Germany as well as whatever industry still held out.

Although it would be cool telling the Soviets to enjoy the glowing, molten ruins of what was once Berlin.

[gburch]

"and the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht are developing tactics in the winter of 1946-47 to deal with the accelerating atomic bombing campaign being carried out by the Eighth Air Force against the Fatherland ..."


um, and what tactics might those be? I don't see that there would be much they could do about an 'atomic bombing campaign'.

Yes, I imagine the first few bombs would take out the remaining major cities in Germany as well as whatever industry still held out.

Although it would be cool telling the Soviets to enjoy the glowing, molten ruins of what was once Berlin.

... not to derail this thread yet again, but remember that in the real story, the US had exactly two functioning atomic bombs when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed. After that, none. Now there was a production process underway, but it was by no means a matter of "mass production" yet.

So, even assuming the scenario I posit, in which the Axis powers are doing much better at the point that the Manhattan Project produces its results (and therefore that production of atomic bombs is pushed even harder by the US), in the late '45, early '46 time period we're talking about only a handful of bombs. Also, if Overlord fails in the summer of '45 as I imagined (which isn't impossible, since the Eastern Front isn't absorbing so much of the Wehrmacht's strength), then the resources devoted to the Pacific campaigns by the Allies can't be as great.

Couple this with three other factors. First, with success on the Eastern front, the Third Reich has much greater and more secure oil supplies. Second, as we know from Speer's memoirs, the work he and others had done to disperse the Nazi military industries was working amazingly well. And third, with another year to work on the Me262 and maybe a few other planes like the Horten, and with the Allies not having fighter bases in France, the air defense of "fortress Europe" is at least marginally (and perhaps significantly) more robust. Coupled with projects like the Me163, Wasserfall and the Natter, it's not inconceivable that at least a few B-29s carrying nukes into the heart of the Reich get downed.

So, the idea of "the Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht ... developing tactics in the winter of 1946-47 to deal with the accelerating atomic bombing campaign being carried out by the Eighth Air Force against the Fatherland" isn't COMPLETELY out of the question. Three that come to mind are improvements of air defense, dispersal of forces and industry to deny rich targets and terror reprisals (both inside Europe and in attacks against England -- imagine V2s with biological or chemical warheads ... not a pretty thought, but certainly within the possible realm of responses people like Hitler and Himmler might have undertaken ...)

All of which goes to make the point I think has much merit, that the tipping point for the Third Reich was the failure of Barbarossa to achieve complete strategic success in the first season. Comforting ourselves with the idea that "the Axis could never have won the war" may make us sleep better at night, but I don't think it was a completely foregone conclusion ... Highly likely? Yes. Certain? No.

[aferguson]

but by late '46 atomic bomb production would have been quite refined and going full steam ahead and it would have been possible to produce bombs by the dozen at that point. Then you merely send over several hundred b-29's at a time, one of which is carrying an atomic bomb and the others regular bomb loads. The luftwaffe would have no way of knowing which plance carried the Bomb and the odds of them shooting down the right plane would be very slim. Almost every time the plane with the Bomb would get through.

As for reprisals, Hitler had the capability of launching chemical and bological attacks for most of wwii but refrained for fear of reprisals in kind from the allies (a surprising fact given his otherwise 'take no prisoners, sacrifice the german people for the good of the reich' attitude) That fear would have continued to deter him, even in the event of an atomic bombing campaign.

The biggest determent to an atomic bombing campaign would have been the allies themselves. Both from being sickened by the carnage the were bringing and from the threat of nuclear fallout to surrounding countries around germany. However, faced with the prospects of losing more allied lives it most likely would continue, unless public pressure in the US forced Truman to stop it.

It may have resulted in some kind of armistice, rather than the unconditional surrender of Germany, however, given that Overlord failed and the allies had no armies in europe.

[gburch]

but by late '46 atomic bomb production would have been quite refined and going full steam ahead and it would have been possible to produce bombs by the dozen at that point. Then you merely send over several hundred b-29's at a time, one of which is carrying an atomic bomb and the others regular bomb loads. The luftwaffe would have no way of knowing which plance carried the Bomb and the odds of them shooting down the right plane would be very slim. Almost every time the plane with the Bomb would get through.

As for reprisals, Hitler had the capability of launching chemical and bological attacks for most of wwii but refrained for fear of reprisals in kind from the allies (a surprising fact given his otherwise 'take no prisoners, sacrifice the german people for the good of the reich' attitude) That fear would have continued to deter him, even in the event of an atomic bombing campaign.

The biggest determent to an atomic bombing campaign would have been the allies themselves. Both from being sickened by the carnage the were bringing and from the threat of nuclear fallout to surrounding countries around germany. However, faced with the prospects of losing more allied lives it most likely would continue, unless public pressure in the US forced Truman to stop it.

It may have resulted in some kind of armistice, rather than the unconditional surrender of Germany, however, given that Overlord failed and the allies had no armies in europe.

[Someone holler if you think this is too off-topic, but since it directly impacts the scenarios in which the Horten would have been deployed .... ]

Good points, and I recognize it's a stretch to get to a scenario in which the real "Luft '46" fantasy occurs. For instance, there's this:

Production estimates given to Sec. Stimson in July 1945 projected a second plutonium bomb would be ready by Aug. 24, that 3 bombs should be available in September, and more each month - reaching 7 or more in December. Improvements in bomb design being prepared at the end of the war would have permitted one bomb to be produced for every 5 kg of plutonium or 12 kg of uranium in output. These improvements were apparently taken into account in this estimate. Assuming these bomb improvements were used, the October capacity would have permitted up to 6 bombs a month. Note that with the peak monthly plutonium and HEU production figures (19.4 kg and 69 kg respectively), production of close to 10 bombs a month was possible.

From: http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/sci ... lBombs.htm

... which fits with the general state of my knowledge on the subject (let's just say "Dr. Strangelove" was my favorite movie when I was a kid, and I was pretty well obsessed with this when back then, since I engaged in duck-and-cover drills in a school that was in range of the "Missiles of October").

This is why I think you have to give the Luftwaffe and other German air defense assets a "running start" to get to a scenario in which there's still a functioning Third Reich past the first few attempts to deliver nukes by the Allies. While the Luftwaffe generated some great aces on the real eastern front, the fact is that it was a meat grinder in which lots of relatively inexperienced replacement pilots never got the chance to turn into experienced pilots. For every 20+ kill Iron Cross winner on the eastern front, there were ten kids that didn't survive their first month in combat. You have to take that out of the picture to give the Luftwaffe a chance in the second half of '45 and '46 to knock down enough B-29s to make a difference.

You also have to take out the disruption and closer Allied fighter bases that the success of Overlord in June '44 gave the Allies. But, as I say, that's not inconceivable with the extra resources Rommel might have had.

One factor you might have to add to the scenario is taking Goering out of the picture as soon as possible. He was a TERRIBLE strategist and, coupled with Hitler's fundamental lack of comprehension of strategic air power, was one of the major factors that doomed the Nazi Luftwaffe to final failure. This presents a problem to the "alternative historian," though, because the best chance to take him out is when he was wounded in the Beerhall Putsch -- he had a remarkably robust constitution and would have been unlikely to have died from natural causes otherwise. But if Goering's gone from the '20s, the Nazis may never come to power, since his political acumen was a significant factor in the rise of the Little Corporal.

As for refraining from the use of chem/bio weapons, that's one of THE most interesting questions in the study of WW2 military history. Many point out that Hitler was gassed in the Great War, and that may have been a factor. Fear of reprisal and of offering the opposition a propaganda victory were other factors. But once the nukes start flashing over cities in the German heartland, those factors might well have come off the table. Against this is the fact that even as the Gotterdamerung took place in April of '45 in the real world, Hitler didn't order the use of chem/bio weapons. So, on balance, I think this is the least likely response to the nuking of Berlin.

A final factor to consider: By the Spring of '45 in the real world, Bomber Command was regularly incinerating German cities. Almost everything I've ever read indicates to me that this did NOT significantly hasten the end of the war.

... so we're left to wonder in what kind of world the Horten could ever have been a real player. As a friend of mine said many, many years ago when we were engaging in a long, alcohol-fueled night of "if-history" of this kind: "Things sure would have been different if things had been different."

[Jackson]

Since all this is speculation on this Topic...had Hitler not made the insane descision to attack Russia thus ruining his Army and the Luftwaffe the D-Day invasion would have been another Dunkirk on a massive scale but this time no escape for the Allies