POST ALL JSE F-14 QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION HERE

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:54 pm

I agree Corey, I think this board spends way to much time griping, bit@%ing, moaning criticizing, etc. And to a point I think it's normal and okay. Perhaps the reason we here so much of it is the fact that there is so little out there getting made. Maybe, there is a hidden mentality out there that any new aircraft may be the last so make it perfect. If this was a feast year and vehicles of many types were rolling out of the factories I'd probably have passed on the F-14 but since its the only game in town I'll take one.

vulgarvulture · Post by **vulgarvulture** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:30 pm

I only hope people did not scare off JSI into doing more 1/18 planes.

Not to worry, in the end it will be a strictly financial decision either way for JSI. The number of collectors on this board who actually who would have purchased even a perfect JSI F-14 are still a pimple on a gnat's ass in the 1:18 plane market. Well, maybe not quite that insignificant, but definitely not a driving force in the overall market. Vocal, yes.

CessnaDriver · Post by **CessnaDriver** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:24 pm

Forgive me....

I'm excited!

Any place, any weather....

Where they hell I'm I gonna put it! LOL

CessnaDriver · Post by **CessnaDriver** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:45 am

Splash the zeros, I say again, splash the zeros!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyjNInIH4Hw

Shin Densetsu · Post by **Shin Densetsu** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:00 am

What I'm wondering now is how sturdy/durable this thing will be. If it's like the 21st Century MIG-15 and F-86, then I'll be a happy camper, but if it's rugged and built to last like the BBI F/A-18 I'll be even happier.

The ideal scenario for me would be the durability of the Hornet with the high level of detail seen on the F-86 and MIG-15.

I'd really like to see this model repainted into one of the last F-14A squadron schemes and configured into a Bombcat.

Then hopefully get some F-14B's, and final Cruise F-14D Super Tomcats w/JDAM's, especially from VF-2. Both the low viz, and CAG fighters from VF-2 looked AWESOME. Not to mention, the VF-2 F-14D's were some of the most important Tomcats involved in the war. The combination of LANTIRN and JDAM is great.

dragon53 · Post by **dragon53** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:34 am

From Badcat's blog:

" Pre-Production Prototype vs Actual Production Samples

Here at the 'Cat, we try to professionally photograph every military toy that comes through the door. By taking good pictures of actual merchandise removed from the box, people can see what they are buying and there are fewer negative surprises when the package arrives at their homes. An exception to this rule is preordered merchandise which by its very nature (future products) have photographic information available. In these cases, we have to rely on the distributor or manufacturer to provide shots of their prototype. Dissimilarities between the prototype and production models generate angst for everyone. So why are they allowed to be different?

The prototype is normally painted and detailed by a professional master modeler, like Roy Sutherland or a contemporary. This master modeler not only has an in-born aptitude for the work, he has years of practice developing his craft. And while everyone has deadlines, a company's master modeler usually has ample time to complete a prototype masterpiece. The master has all the proper tools and knows how to use them. When he paints/airbrushes his pigments are premium. And when he's done, the prototype always looks great! I've never seen a bad prototype.

Now take this beautiful plastic model airplane over to the factory and tell the plant manager that you want 3000 pieces at $150 each and you need them by Christmas. The factory manager will scratch his head and lay out a production plan employing semi-skilled workers to do the job originally accomplished by a master. Each worker has minutes or seconds to finish their step before the next piece comes along, not days or weeks. Yet these workers' modeling skills are far less capable than those of the master modeler's. The factory vassals may also have dubious levels of motivation to do the best job possible. The tools they use may be second-rate, as well.

So here's the challenge: Build a production model using 90% less labor time, semi-skilled workers, less costly material--essentially 90% less everything-- and somehow end-up with a piece that is not 90% less quality than the prototype. In fact, faithfulness to the prototype needs be 98% or more to keep everyone happy--a degradation of less than 2%! And by everyone, I mean distributors, retailers and consumers, each group has a lot riding on the factory's ability to turn a custom, handmade prototype into a mass-produced model that everyone will love. Can you imagine just how difficult this chore is to successfully pull off? Add a rush deadline into the mix and I can certainly empathize with our friends in the factories in China.

From the F-14 pics I've seen, I think the model is gorgeous. Huge, complex, realistic and definitely packing wow appeal, the Tomcat looks good, really good. A few have rangled over the spotty weathering and I agree with them. I don't like the weathering either. Despite this demerit, I feel the the aircraft is an still absolute beauty.

Compare this Tomcat to the truly awful 1:18 F-18 Blue Angel paint and the difference is apparent. Yes, I said the F-18BA paint was awful. I was upset at first sight with the Hornet and I'm still upset about it. The blue was Flat not glossy like it should have been. The yellow lines were raggedy. And the blue paint bled through the yellow. What I found even more shocking was that collectors loved it and completely ignored the rather poor paint. Even today, Ebay prices are astronomical for the Blue Angel Hornet.

The new F-14 Tomcat may not be 100% faithful to the prototype but overall its reasonably close. We'd all like to have the gap between prototypes and production planes tighter but most folks probably don't realize the difficultly of mass-reproducing a stunning prototype using a fraction of the human and material resources that went into the original. JSI's execution of the F-14 weathering on this model is sub-par and this has been brought to their attention in spades. However, I think most collectors will be able to live with the weathering infidelity, dig out their airbrush and exercise their modeling skills, and a few may even send it back. But all in all, this looks to be a winner and far better in execution than several of the F-18s, F-104s, TBMs, and P-47s released a few years back."

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:11 am

that excuses not weathering it at all.....it doesn't excuse airbrushing bizarre random dots all over it that look nothing like the master modeller's paint master. And every model plane put out by every company has the same deadlines, semi-skilled workers etc, yet none of them have had wierd dots painted on them. And given the price point, this should bloody well never have happened....the point of paying more is you get something better, not something half a$$ed.

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:54 am

I don't understand why a model has to have weathering any way? Can't we have an F-14 right out of the factory? That works for me.

c44588 · Post by **c44588** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:32 am

For those who say..."this site ought not have negativism" I say:

'Forum=Disussion'

And I will say after BC made this well written expose on the F14 as they see it, I think the 'nay-sayers' on this site were right. All the pre-shipping responses to the infamous 'SpotCat' pics by Merit and its shippers were vague or even marginally deceptive. If they had a way to dismiss the concern with fact, they would have shown us the pics early on.

To say the prototype was made by an expert modeler and no way could we expect 13 year old Korean girls held captive in Western China to duplicate that mastery, I say...you gotta say what is is that you'll be selling if you want someone to preorder a high profile (via pics and show appearences) and expensive collector item at a set price and pursuant to expectations set by the manufacturer, not us! This holds true whether you're selling Porsches, $260 F14 toys (after shipping), or potato chips.

True, you don't have to buy it, and I have cancelled my oreder based on the deficiencies noted, but also in part by the way this has been handled. Too bad, but so it goes. And in an economy such as ours, $260 IS some cash for 'a toy', as they put it. Has to be a pretty damn cool toy to warrant that, and the SpotCat doesnt meet my standards there. It may meet yours though and thats cool.

Who knows maybe someday it will be as collectable as the upside down Lincoln head postage stamp....

Just remember, your power to ensure quality wherever your shopping as a consumer is your purchasing power. And I will make anyone earn my 'vote'.....

NWarty · Post by **NWarty** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:07 pm

Good post c44588.

For the most part, I think this has been a great discussion and pretty civil. There have been a lot of great points made by both sides and I honestly don't see the bitching, but constructive comments. Coreyeagle has made some very good points about the photographs. Jerichoeagle had some good points about one-off models, painting and mass produced items, Aferg and KoF have mentioned quality and value vs. price point. I don't agree with some fanboys elsewhere telling forum participants to STFU because they feel like they're bitching and we "should just be happy" to get what we're getting. Wow, I'm being shouted down because I didn't like something on the model. We all have an opinion and this place is great for everyone of all backgrounds to discuss 1/18.

JSI and Merit mismanaged the PR and release from the very beginning and as c44588 mentioned, we're setting our hopes and expectations based off of pictures of a product that no customer has seen in person. Some of us have pre-orders that have been charged, myself included, so I've now paid for the product. I didn't have to go this route, but I chose to. I think if I'm not critical of a high dollar collectable, I'm going to have to re-look exactly what my standards are. Like I said before, JSI set those expectations with the release of their paint prototype and showing it off and toting around to various shows. Would those of you who pre-ordered the Dauntless felt the same way if Admiral or MTS posted some pretty bad photos of it prior to it arriving at your doorstep?

Some of us don't mind the spots. Hey, that's okay as long as you are happy and the product meets your expectations.

Like BCA Rob said, JSI is fully aware that folks aren't happy with the weathering job. I think this is a good thing in that it can only improve product quality in future releases. If we, the consumer, don't offer criticisms, how does a product ever get better?

Only a couple of days until some of us get to see it up close and in-person.

Shin Densetsu · Post by **Shin Densetsu** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 pm

Like you guys, I'm wondering where the guys who painted the Corsair and Lightning where when the Tomcat was in production.

vulgarvulture · Post by **vulgarvulture** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:34 pm

tko211 says:

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:51 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are my thoughts on the subject: The F-14 is a plane that I frankly never thought we would ever see in 1:18. I think there is a lot riding on the success or failure of this plane. It's quite difficult on paper to justify the costs to develop these large birds. It's taken some serious guts for JSI to build it and it's a gamble that might not pay off (even if the paint was perfect). So as a fan of 1:18 I am generally very happy to see this plane at all.

What I have suspected all along: In the days of AREA-21 and 21C I was privy to many inside info and personally attended several planning meetings in person. I sat in on many interesting discussions about projects like this one. And- I ALWAYS suspected that people would pay the high watermark price tag. BUT- I also knew that if you took 200+ dollars away from collectors, expectations would shift! At that price, I felt that there would be no mercy or forgiveness for paint or build quality issues. As collectors, this kind of plane feels more like an "investment" than a casual purchase. customers now have a higher expectation. This is natural and there is little that can be done about it. It's one of the factors that toy makers have to consider at this price point.

What next: You guys can think this is wrong but trust me I know development costs associated. This plane will loose money for JSI for the first release paint scheme. It will likely loose money on a second scheme as well. Perhaps even a third release. You have to sell LOTS of these things over a period of several years and several paint schemes to get a return from the investment.

It gets worse: How many different scheme F-14's are you willing to buy up at 200+ bucks? Even if you are the kind of guy who says "I will buy every version they make" it's not enough! The masses have to be willing to buy multiples just to break even. (If you think I am wrong just look at Admiral Toys history). I know I am still waiting on a Dauntless that will never come, why? Because we didn't buy enough of the Me-262's and Sabers. and if 2 releases of each didn't get them profitable on a 50 dollar plane... Well doesn't look too good for the Tomcat, let alone the Eagle or Flanker. Make no mistake gentlemen- We ALL have to buy several Tomcats. Not 1 or 2. More like 5.

My point: I would not hesitate to buy an F-14 if you want one. I sincerely question the profitability position in the short term and that has everything to do with an ability for a long term. and I fear that the mighty F-15 and Flanker may fall victim to the ROI projections after the F-14. If large 1:18 scale projects have a future at all, it rests largely in the measure of success or failure of the sale figures for this Tomcat. (spots and all). I think i might just go ahead now and order a second tomcat. Gotta make my own S2 scheme. Question is: Sundowners or Black Aces?

tko211:

In your estimation, if the S-1 Tomcat only hits, let's say, 50%-70% of revenue projections, what would you place the odds at of JSI doing (or being able to do) an S-2 Tomcat scheme?

iflabs · Post by **iflabs** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:44 pm

Why?!!! Whhhhyyyyyyyyy?! They half assed the weathering spots with mere dark dots instead of what we saw earlier. They should have dabbed the paint with paint stripper or something, lol.

Highly disappointed.

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:38 pm

When every one gets their F-14 are you guys going to play Connect The Dots

pcoughran · Post by **pcoughran** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:15 pm

General Hawk 59 posted some pics of his special edition over at the Fighting 1/18th:
http://forums.fighting118th.com/showthr ... #post28921

Looks like spots are a plenty

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:19 pm

OK, now we see...

phil

KKH · Post by **KKH** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:27 pm

Nice plane, pathetic paint...too bad.

NWarty · Post by **NWarty** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:49 pm

I'm at a loss for words right now.

What a disappointment...

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:49 pm

exether_mega wrote:OK, now we see...

phil

Love it!

NWarty · Post by **NWarty** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:53 pm

Well, looks like I have my work cut out for me in repainting and touching up the official new:

"PolkaSpotCat"

NWarty · Post by **NWarty** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:06 pm

Posted in this thread too (I think we need to combine the threads):

Like I said in the main F-14 thread.

I wanted to eat crow. Hoping and wishing what we saw in Merit's pics was a fluke.

Photo by General Hawk 59

I'm disappointed beyond words.

JSI blew it....big time

To my five year old son:

"What do you think about it?"
"It has big dots on it Daddy"

I just about felt crushed.

vulgarvulture · Post by **vulgarvulture** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:07 pm

JSI screwed the pooch, big time. What a joke. And the bitch of it is that they did not have to do ANY weathering.

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:20 pm

I have to admit, that looks pretty bad. Still, I can fix it! Where's my airbrush?

diegomenendez · Post by **diegomenendez** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:31 pm

glad you can fix it, but the point is, you shouldn't have to..ya know?

Jericoeagle1 · Post by **Jericoeagle1** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:32 pm

diegomenendez wrote:glad you can fix it, but the point is, you shouldn't have to..ya know?

True you shouldn't. Shame too, because the model it self looks great.