I think there are some oval-shaped access panels on the upper surface and wings of the Tomcat, allowing "access" to the hard to get to areas.
And this was probably what the paint master was trying to create, since weathering occurs around panels lines, and thus access panels.
But I think that was lost on the painters, who were just trying to re-create the "spots" they thought they were looking at on the master's model. The Asian painters may well have thought the actual paint scheme incorporated spots, they were just trying to recreate, as best they could, the master's work.
But if you don't really understand something, odds are your efforts to recreate it won't succeed.
JSI's guy in charge of QA should have noticed this on the first few painted, then just called a halt and pursuaded JSI mgt they needed to scrap this weathering idea since they can't get close to duplicating it and don't have the time to train people how to do it.
Or, they could have used temperas or something water-based to just give it a streaked and grimy look. If buyers didn't like, they could get wet towel & toothbrush and wipe off.
BananaBob knows Tomcat weathering (notice the access panels resemble spots. But they're not on every panel, or the nose)
<a href="http://s449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... anaBob.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... anaBob.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
POST ALL JSE F-14 QUESTIONS AND DISCUSSION HERE
-
Shin Densetsu
- Officer - 1st Lieutenant
- Posts: 504
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:52 pm
- Location: Sky
They did but it also didn't hurt at all that the paint schemes chosen are far more accurate for the specific models Century Wings chose to paint them on. For example, none of the late model F-14A's they made for the Black Knights were painted with the VF-84 paint scheme. It also doesn't hurt that Century Wings, arguably, makes the most accurate Tomcat models on the market.Century Wings released 5 variations of the early and mid-80's VF-84 Tomcats... in factory-fresh paint, and they all sold out, every last one!
And not just VF-84, also VF-41 Black Aces. Both of these are still in HUGE demand.
That reminds me of the time Jason from AT said that some of the factory workers thought the ME-262 engines were supposed to be removable bombs, I think this was when he was emphasizing that visits to the Chinese factories were necessary just to make sure everyone was on the same page.But I think that was lost on the painters, who were just trying to re-create the "spots" they thought they were looking at on the master's model. The Asian painters may well have thought the actual paint scheme incorporated spots, they were just trying to recreate, as best they could, the master's work.
But if you don't really understand something, odds are your efforts to recreate it won't succeed.
JSI's guy in charge of QA should have noticed this on the first few painted, then just called a halt and pursuaded JSI mgt they needed to scrap this weathering idea since they can't get close to duplicating it and don't have the time to train people how to do it.
That and the v2 P-51 with removable gun panels never made it to production and the airbrakes on the F-104 prototype never made it to production either.I don't buy the prototype photos don't look like the real one arguement either. There were many times where 21st used professionally painted airplanes to showcase their future schemes, and then the actual mass produced ones were much simpler in nature. If anyone remembers, their F-4 was actually a 1/48 Tamyia kit painted up to look like the F-4 they were supposedly going to do
You have good points, I think the reason people are mad is because yes, like myself, they wanted a Tomcat for years but leaving spots off was an easy task, not a difficult one, and it would have decreased their labor if left off, but ultimately what we are getting comes off as tarnished gold in a sense.I'm not saying we owe them anything and haven't said that. That's a total misrepresentation of the statement. What people are getting at is the fact that there are many other companies who make 1/18 stuff that wouldn't even make an attempt to try this for whatever reason (too big, too costly, too complicated) etc. The point being made is that JSI at least made an attempt to do something when we've seen ziltch from BBI and Admiral lately. They have an advantage as they are putting product out to buy and no matter what it looks like there is someone out there who will buy it. It's very hard to argue this because as I said, it's not like BBI and Admiral are here challenging them. With the exception of PTE, there is virtually no 1/18 stuff coming out except for custom pieces.
This doesn't stop me from wanting one eventually but the spots are disappointing, I think it's good if we point things like this out because the 1/18 companies to tend to listen over time. Like the time BBI made the F/A-18 landing gear out of stiffer plastic for the later runs, the time 21st decided to do an all new P-51, et al.
Hell if the lack of pre-applied weathering will decrease the overall cost of the toy for future versions, I am all for it! Weathering materials aren't that expensive at hobby stores.
Shin's wishlist for 1/18 and 1/32 with retractable landing gear and more:
F-14 Tomcat, F-8 Crusader, A-4 Skyhawk, F-105 Thunderchief, A-6 Intruder, F-15C, F-15E Strike Eagle
F-14 Tomcat, F-8 Crusader, A-4 Skyhawk, F-105 Thunderchief, A-6 Intruder, F-15C, F-15E Strike Eagle
-
vulgarvulture
- Officer - Major
- Posts: 880
- Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:05 pm
This fiasco is so frustrating. So avoidable. It kills me about the paint because aside from that I'd love a 1:18 F-14. I've been waiting for it. I pre-ordered it. But at this point there's no way in hell I'm dishing out big bucks for a plane with a paint job that is so terribly distracting and just so wrong.
JSI could have hit a home run with this thing, but someone dropped the ball in the paint department.
Here's hoping JSI can survive this debacle to produce a S-2 Tomcat with an eye toward lessons learned on S-1.
So frustrating. So very frustrating.
JSI could have hit a home run with this thing, but someone dropped the ball in the paint department.
Here's hoping JSI can survive this debacle to produce a S-2 Tomcat with an eye toward lessons learned on S-1.
So frustrating. So very frustrating.
-
exether_mega
- Officer - Colonel
- Posts: 1312
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: Belgium
- Contact:
I disagree Coreyeagle48. They CAN. They can read our posts in forums such as this. If we say, "Hey Hobbymaster, swell idea and all about doing the exhaust grime on your new Skyraider, but we'd rather do it ourselves; remember the debacles with those other weather-worn atrocities? Just make it factory fresh, we can handle the rest, Thanks!" And they listen. And guess what, I don't see anyone complaining on the 1/72 boards about lack of exhaust grime.. they're all giving high-5's that Hobbymaster pulled it off beautifully, even w/o the exhaust grime. I predict this 'Raider will sell out in short order, b/c some mfgers listen to their customer base, and learn fm others' mistakes - the lesson was already out there.Coreyeagle48 wrote:Greetings:
Unfortunately though if they did that this entire board would probably complain the F-14 had no weathering. I can hear it now.
"There's no weathering. I'm cancelling my preorder and never buying anything again in 1/18. How could JSI do this to us"
I feel for the companies, they can do nothing to provide anyone any enjoyment in the hobby anymore. Nothing is ever good enough, paint wise, detail wise, size wise, whatever. They can't win, especially in this community it seems.
Corey
<a href="http://s449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... raider.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq21 ... raider.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Last edited by glcanon on Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Coreyeagle48
- Officer - Brigadier General
- Posts: 2070
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:25 am
- Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
I disagree. Historically, this community has proven time and time again that nothing makes it happy, no matter what the companies do. I know several people who also collect this stuff that refuse to join here because of the less than constructive conversations about the pieces.
If I were a company, I'd do exactly what JSI did. I'd make it exactly how I thought and not worry a hoot about what this community thinks. There are a ton of other collectors out there who I am sure will be thrilled by this piece.
If I were a company, I'd do exactly what JSI did. I'd make it exactly how I thought and not worry a hoot about what this community thinks. There are a ton of other collectors out there who I am sure will be thrilled by this piece.
Trade References
tmanthegreat
hworth18
raiderad6
Snake
USCGSARdog
ThreeToughTrucks
Jnewboy
The one and only "Razor"
Rowsdower
Pizzaguy
pickelhaube
vmf 214
popeye357
JOC
Jwcarpenter
tmanthegreat
hworth18
raiderad6
Snake
USCGSARdog
ThreeToughTrucks
Jnewboy
The one and only "Razor"
Rowsdower
Pizzaguy
pickelhaube
vmf 214
popeye357
JOC
Jwcarpenter
GREAT patch EM! Made me laugh out loud!
Maybe we should tell all the vedors that our $260 preorder commitment was just a hope and that we can really only pay $99 now that the model is out. You know, with the times, your expectations that we could deliver the entire $260 is pretty unreasonable.
So heres my $99 for your product; take it and be happy you got anything at all!!!
Shoe on the other foot feels a little tighter, doesn't it?
And just for my clarity and because CoreyEagle seems like the last major cheerleader/holdout of the F14 in the midst of the SpotCat fiasco (for which I think I have the dubious distinction for having named it; please correct me if I'm wrong) are you not a vendor trying to sell these or not. No bust intended and I respect ALL views; please keep 'em coming! I was just looking for a little clarification. I think all re-sellers should preface their comments since they will be in almost all cases differently motivated than us ultimate consumers.
Maybe we should tell all the vedors that our $260 preorder commitment was just a hope and that we can really only pay $99 now that the model is out. You know, with the times, your expectations that we could deliver the entire $260 is pretty unreasonable.
So heres my $99 for your product; take it and be happy you got anything at all!!!
Shoe on the other foot feels a little tighter, doesn't it?
And just for my clarity and because CoreyEagle seems like the last major cheerleader/holdout of the F14 in the midst of the SpotCat fiasco (for which I think I have the dubious distinction for having named it; please correct me if I'm wrong) are you not a vendor trying to sell these or not. No bust intended and I respect ALL views; please keep 'em coming! I was just looking for a little clarification. I think all re-sellers should preface their comments since they will be in almost all cases differently motivated than us ultimate consumers.
Agreed. Had JSI's QA/QC guy been a collector, or someone who at least had a modicum of passion about the field in which he works, or had just a smidge of understanding about WHO HIS CUSTOMER IS, ie, not some child, but a discriminating adult who has money for $250 dollar plastic toys, then surely JSI would've put out a better product.
Kudos to JSI's engineers, the model itself looks great. My guess is the engineers are probably as mad as anyone. It's like mfg'ing a Ferrari, then your painters put polka dots on it. WTF was paint dept thinking... making us all look bad.. or some such thoughts..
But as for QC and paint depts, I think what JSI likely has is some asian slavedriver who has no understanding of QC nor this hobby, whose sole job it is to whip their "workers" to schedule, get stuff pumped out quick.. because they're more concerned about a quick Yen. I've spent a little time in the PacRim, visiting an engineer friend who works there. QC is VERY LOW on the list of asian priorities, if they even have QC folks at all. That's why many times they bring in Westerners to oversee everything. BTW, I'm not talking about Japan despite my Yen reference. Some asian countries hv excellent QC.
That's why the best products are made by people who also have a passion about it, like the CW guys. Yes, they charge as much as $89 these days for a 1/72 diecast model, but no one can argue about their accuracy or quality. I'll grant $225 is a good price for a model this size, maybe a year ago people would have paid that price for a blank paint-it-yourself model. HOWEVER, JSI shot themselves in the foot by releasing pre-pro and advertising NOT showing a blank mold, but a professionally finished piece of work. It's called setting expectations. In my industry, we do it with customers all the time. Make sure they know what they will be getting, then try to deliver a little more than promised, and they will be very happy. But be prepared for hell if you don't meet the expectations you set. The customer will vote with his pocketbook, so guess we'll see what comes of it.
Kudos to JSI's engineers, the model itself looks great. My guess is the engineers are probably as mad as anyone. It's like mfg'ing a Ferrari, then your painters put polka dots on it. WTF was paint dept thinking... making us all look bad.. or some such thoughts..
But as for QC and paint depts, I think what JSI likely has is some asian slavedriver who has no understanding of QC nor this hobby, whose sole job it is to whip their "workers" to schedule, get stuff pumped out quick.. because they're more concerned about a quick Yen. I've spent a little time in the PacRim, visiting an engineer friend who works there. QC is VERY LOW on the list of asian priorities, if they even have QC folks at all. That's why many times they bring in Westerners to oversee everything. BTW, I'm not talking about Japan despite my Yen reference. Some asian countries hv excellent QC.
That's why the best products are made by people who also have a passion about it, like the CW guys. Yes, they charge as much as $89 these days for a 1/72 diecast model, but no one can argue about their accuracy or quality. I'll grant $225 is a good price for a model this size, maybe a year ago people would have paid that price for a blank paint-it-yourself model. HOWEVER, JSI shot themselves in the foot by releasing pre-pro and advertising NOT showing a blank mold, but a professionally finished piece of work. It's called setting expectations. In my industry, we do it with customers all the time. Make sure they know what they will be getting, then try to deliver a little more than promised, and they will be very happy. But be prepared for hell if you don't meet the expectations you set. The customer will vote with his pocketbook, so guess we'll see what comes of it.
Last edited by glcanon on Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm going to reiterate this again since it's important in my opinion.
When I was sitting at my computer last night looking at GH59 recently posted pics at fighting118th.com (quickly scrolling down past Asian SkyStriker girl), my twin boys came up and sat on my lap to see what I was doing.
Here's the first conversation with my five year old twin boy:
"Daddy, that's the Tomcat! When's it gonna be here?"
"Hopefully in the next two weeks bud. What do you think about it"
"It's pretty cool but what are those big dots on it?"
10 minutes later and I'm scouring the other forums, my other twin son comes in and hops onto my lap:
"Daddy the Tomcat!"
"What do ya think bud?"
"Daddy what are those spots?"
"Where do you see spots?"
"All over" (pointing at the screenshots that GH59 took)
I've been building models, both plastic and R/C for 20+ years. These are two five year old boys that within 10 seconds of seeing the photos from the AWX show, knew exactly what was wrong with it. Discerning collectors these two????
My wife, two minutes later: "Honey, what's up with those spots" she says looking over my shoulder.
My wife said I should return it and I quote:
"You paid $250 for that and the paint is jacked up?!"
"Yeah I know, but they may never make another one, plus I can fix the paint on it with my airbrush"
"You shouldn't have to fix the paintjob for $250!"
Picky collectors with an excuse to find anything wrong? B**sh*t. So the comments about the Spots are not rivet counters or forum board junkies, but from my children and wife who don't know an F-16 from a 15 and 14 from a Sopwith Camel. My wife doesn't know or care about aviation and she could tell somethings VERY wrong.
When I was sitting at my computer last night looking at GH59 recently posted pics at fighting118th.com (quickly scrolling down past Asian SkyStriker girl), my twin boys came up and sat on my lap to see what I was doing.
Here's the first conversation with my five year old twin boy:
"Daddy, that's the Tomcat! When's it gonna be here?"
"Hopefully in the next two weeks bud. What do you think about it"
"It's pretty cool but what are those big dots on it?"
10 minutes later and I'm scouring the other forums, my other twin son comes in and hops onto my lap:
"Daddy the Tomcat!"
"What do ya think bud?"
"Daddy what are those spots?"
"Where do you see spots?"
"All over" (pointing at the screenshots that GH59 took)
I've been building models, both plastic and R/C for 20+ years. These are two five year old boys that within 10 seconds of seeing the photos from the AWX show, knew exactly what was wrong with it. Discerning collectors these two????
My wife, two minutes later: "Honey, what's up with those spots" she says looking over my shoulder.
My wife said I should return it and I quote:
"You paid $250 for that and the paint is jacked up?!"
"Yeah I know, but they may never make another one, plus I can fix the paint on it with my airbrush"
"You shouldn't have to fix the paintjob for $250!"
Picky collectors with an excuse to find anything wrong? B**sh*t. So the comments about the Spots are not rivet counters or forum board junkies, but from my children and wife who don't know an F-16 from a 15 and 14 from a Sopwith Camel. My wife doesn't know or care about aviation and she could tell somethings VERY wrong.
Kudos, NWarty. Sounds like you have a pair of future enthusiasts. Good point, anyone will spot it, not just adults.
"The only difference b/t men and boys is the price of their toys..."
More power to any kids who can buy these, but they must have a heck of a lemonaide stand. JSI has to know who their consumer is. If 5 yr olds can see that expectations weren't met. Then that's a fail.
ps, I'm a twin myself. He's posted here many more times than me..
"The only difference b/t men and boys is the price of their toys..."
More power to any kids who can buy these, but they must have a heck of a lemonaide stand. JSI has to know who their consumer is. If 5 yr olds can see that expectations weren't met. Then that's a fail.
ps, I'm a twin myself. He's posted here many more times than me..
Last edited by glcanon on Sun Dec 06, 2009 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
exether_mega
- Officer - Colonel
- Posts: 1312
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: Belgium
- Contact:
-
exether_mega
- Officer - Colonel
- Posts: 1312
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: Belgium
- Contact:
-
Stug45
- Officer - Brigadier General
- Posts: 6374
- Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:16 pm
- Location: Orlando FL
Plus you have to find someone thats really good at all these things.exether_mega wrote:Masking, painting, airbrushing... and also time...Stug45 wrote:How much will it cost to get it repainted?
phil
The mind is the limit. As long as the mind can envision the fact that you can do something, you can do it, as long as you really believe 100 percent.
-
exether_mega
- Officer - Colonel
- Posts: 1312
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:35 am
- Location: Belgium
- Contact:
-
wolfman1973
- Corporal
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:15 pm
Coreyeagle is not a retailer.
Corey: to say 'the community is never satisified' is far too broad and unfair a statement. There are hundreds of members here so naturally no matter what is produced somebody will gripe about it. That doesn't mean the whole 'community' is negative about everything.
And even in the face of these hideous spots there have been many enthusiastic comments about the Tomcat and how happy people are to have it.
But anyone with eyeballs and a brain has to admit that these spots are well above and beyond the normal QC and accuracy issues we are used to dealing with in this hobby; and yet while there have been many complaints there have been many positive comments too.
Those spots are absolutely terrible and i still can't believe something like this could happen.
I'm sure the Tomcat will sell out, eventually. It will just take longer and perhaps require some price discounting. For me, i'm going the r/c foamie route and hoping for a better S2 from JSI.
Corey: to say 'the community is never satisified' is far too broad and unfair a statement. There are hundreds of members here so naturally no matter what is produced somebody will gripe about it. That doesn't mean the whole 'community' is negative about everything.
And even in the face of these hideous spots there have been many enthusiastic comments about the Tomcat and how happy people are to have it.
But anyone with eyeballs and a brain has to admit that these spots are well above and beyond the normal QC and accuracy issues we are used to dealing with in this hobby; and yet while there have been many complaints there have been many positive comments too.
Those spots are absolutely terrible and i still can't believe something like this could happen.
I'm sure the Tomcat will sell out, eventually. It will just take longer and perhaps require some price discounting. For me, i'm going the r/c foamie route and hoping for a better S2 from JSI.
i never met an airplane i didn't like...
-
pcoughran
- Officer - 1st Lieutenant
- Posts: 596
- Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:58 am
- Location: 1, USA, MO, St. Louis
I know this isn't an F14 video ,but here's another "good idea" but poor execution. What happens if you miss your target on the first shot?
One of the World's most Powerful Guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss
One of the World's most Powerful Guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss
"Where's dat waskily wabbit?"
____________________________________________
Good Trades: Ostketten, Pickelhaube, Cornbreadfred, Sledgehammer, Pizzaguy, caesarbc3,jwcarpenter
____________________________________________
Good Trades: Ostketten, Pickelhaube, Cornbreadfred, Sledgehammer, Pizzaguy, caesarbc3,jwcarpenter
GeneralHawk59's comment over at fighting118th:
"Here are pictures of the Exclusive F-14 Tomcat from JSI.. Enjoy guys... Oh and by the way there were a ton of extras from the show so contact badcattoys.com or aviatornut.com. "
Ton of extras?
I'd love to be a fly on Merit's, JSI or any retailers wall at this point
"Here are pictures of the Exclusive F-14 Tomcat from JSI.. Enjoy guys... Oh and by the way there were a ton of extras from the show so contact badcattoys.com or aviatornut.com. "
Ton of extras?
I'd love to be a fly on Merit's, JSI or any retailers wall at this point
-
Coreyeagle48
- Officer - Brigadier General
- Posts: 2070
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:25 am
- Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Greetings:
Aferg, you made a point and a vaild point on that. To me though, it seems the general perception around here is mostly negative commenting on the various products. There are positive comments, but they seem to be drowned out by the negative ones. At least that is the perception I gather anyway being around here the last couple of weeks.
The "spots" on the second plane shown look much lighter than the "spots" on the special edition plane. So maybe indeed some corrective action was taken and they aren't too bad. It does seem every company that tries to do weathering seems to get it wrong. You would think with all the technology we have for painting, masking and detailing today, it'd be really easy to accomplish a good weathering job. This isn't just about JSI either, 21st and BBI all had their share of interesting weathering on some of their pieces. Seems to be an industry wide thing.
I also think it may have looked better on a low viz Tomcat. Just a thought. The darker colors overall may have made the weathering much less pronounced. The light color doesn't help at all.
Corey
Aferg, you made a point and a vaild point on that. To me though, it seems the general perception around here is mostly negative commenting on the various products. There are positive comments, but they seem to be drowned out by the negative ones. At least that is the perception I gather anyway being around here the last couple of weeks.
The "spots" on the second plane shown look much lighter than the "spots" on the special edition plane. So maybe indeed some corrective action was taken and they aren't too bad. It does seem every company that tries to do weathering seems to get it wrong. You would think with all the technology we have for painting, masking and detailing today, it'd be really easy to accomplish a good weathering job. This isn't just about JSI either, 21st and BBI all had their share of interesting weathering on some of their pieces. Seems to be an industry wide thing.
I also think it may have looked better on a low viz Tomcat. Just a thought. The darker colors overall may have made the weathering much less pronounced. The light color doesn't help at all.
Corey
Trade References
tmanthegreat
hworth18
raiderad6
Snake
USCGSARdog
ThreeToughTrucks
Jnewboy
The one and only "Razor"
Rowsdower
Pizzaguy
pickelhaube
vmf 214
popeye357
JOC
Jwcarpenter
tmanthegreat
hworth18
raiderad6
Snake
USCGSARdog
ThreeToughTrucks
Jnewboy
The one and only "Razor"
Rowsdower
Pizzaguy
pickelhaube
vmf 214
popeye357
JOC
Jwcarpenter