Small Scale Military Headquarters

MG40K · Post by **MG40K** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:03 pm

On the 21st site, it says to be released in 2007, well I haven't seen one yet. Did they change the release date?

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:08 pm

This is one of those cans of worms that it's better not to open

Suffice it to say that it's been "delayed". The big debate is whether it's delayed until fall 2008, fall 2010, or fall 2100, or whether it was ever planned at all. Most of the long-standing forum members know my take on this one (the last option). Time will tell...

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:10 pm

That is the 6,982,928,726,792,611,834 dollar question. We have no idea when, or if there will be an 1/18th scale F-4 Phantom.

MG40K · Post by **MG40K** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:16 pm

Okay, thanks for the replies.
That was my guess, but had to make sure.

dcmacharlie · Post by **dcmacharlie** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:22 pm

Good Question???? this topic has been around and around and around, Ill buy 3 or more if they come out , worked on them for years and love the airplane, and I have phantom bites and scars to prove it, please someone come out with it this year, nuff said Carlos

Timbo · Post by **Timbo** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:38 pm

I think we'll see one from Admiral but it will be a complete surprise when it hits. Though the faithful here will blame some sort of Chinese conspiracy against toy makers for the delay, 21st probably didn’t even have a full scale prototype when they announced theirs. I’ll expect to see one from 21st right about the time they release their 1/6 Panzer III.

iflabs · Post by **iflabs** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:01 pm

Out of all the collectibles I collect, I have never seen so much begging when it comes to military stuff. Feels like the table has turned, the consumers have to cater to producers instead of the other way around.

Jason of Admiral Toys · Post by **Jason of Admiral Toys** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:08 pm

I am not touching this topic.

Regards,
Jason

dcmacharlie · Post by **dcmacharlie** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:27 pm

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO ..............

No Guts No Glory!!!!!

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:49 am

Timbo wrote:I think we'll see one from Admiral but it will be a complete surprise when it hits. Though the faithful here will blame some sort of Chinese conspiracy against toy makers for the delay, 21st probably didn’t even have a full scale prototype when they announced theirs. I’ll expect to see one from 21st right about the time they release their 1/6 Panzer III.

Maybe sooner than we expected? It'd be great to have one to display along with the Skyraider.

Sabrefan · Post by **Sabrefan** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:42 am

I sure hope 21st Century does make the F-4 model. I still have the 89 dollars in my pocket waiting for it.

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:49 am

It was pretty disgusting.

But I have to admit that the wait for Admiral's Dauntless is getting old now also. I'd been mulling over just canceling it and decide after release and review if I still want it. The only reason I haven't is the value of the dollar and the price of oil. If I cancel now and decide later to reorder, it will cost much higher.

dragon53 · Post by **dragon53** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:02 am

Badcat's blog comment on the 1/18 Phantom--it "is a dead horse":

" So, What About The 1:18 F-4?

F-4.jpgI don't believe it. I mean really, really I don't believe it.

Here's what we know:

1)Admiral prepped a prototype of the 1:18 F-4 in early 2007 and displayed it at Toy Fair. They announced the targeted price and were roundly boo'd by the peanut galleries, who as a group demanded cheaper and threatened to boycott at the $150 price level.

2)A day or two after Admiral Toys' announcement, 21st Century Toys announced their version of the F-4 with a projected $89 price point and a late 2007 release, if memory serves. A small-scale Tamiya model was shown but no actual 1:18 prototype was unveiled (which is actually not uncommon for 1:18 planes before they are released). The masses cheered!

3)Admiral shelved their F-4 plans.

So, that's where we are today . . .

The 1:32 F-4 Phantom plastic model aircraft from BBI has sold well with above average pop and legs, I'd give it a solid "B" grade as a producer. This bodes fairly well for potential sales of the 1:18 version. However, sales would have to come exclusively from the independents as the mass retailers don't want anything this big anymore. Tooling costs would be enormous so we're talking about spreading these costs over relatively few production pieces. That means that every F-4 produced will have to shoulder many dollars of the amortization of this tooling.

Then there's the consumer in this equation. The biggest fear is the returns. Anybody spending this much money on an F-4 may be a little on the picky side and want to return it for a better one. (I just dealt with an Ebay guy who was livid that the corner of his Yellow 7 box was banged and he demanded a full refund + shipping + return shipping + compensation for his time returning it or ELSE!) 1:18 customer returns have had a huge negative impact on this industry and this scale, something that is much less frequent in the smaller diecast models. Secondly, there's a vocal minority who clammors for particular item, then when it's released finds a convenient excuse not to buy--didn't like the paint scheme, the antenna is a mm too long, they'll wait until they're on clearance for $10 . . . etc.. These two factors alone, are enough to keep the manfacturers at bay--and I'm not saying anything they don't already know.

So, as a summary answer to all the calls and emails we receive about the 1:18 Phantom: "I love the airplane and would equally love to have one to sell. I believe people would buy it and we could move several hundred. However, the high tooling costs and limited distribution means its a very risky proposition for the manufacturers and there are at least a dozen other subjects where the risk vs return is much, much better. This will be an expensive plane that many collectors could not or would not afford, noting that the "wanting" is often better than the "having." All those vocal, passionate pleas may not be backed by real, American dollars and carry the weight desired. The ones that do purchase will inspect with a keen eye and returns can be expected to be high."

I love to have great, unique merchandise to sell, that makes my job easy. Nobody is a bigger pitcher of new ideas to the manufacturing powers than myself, I pester them to death (Hi Michael). I like to stay positive whenever possible. But I'm also a realist and believe this particular project is a dead horse. On the other hand, their are numerous new toolings and repaints in both 1:32 and 1:18 on the way and I can't wait to get my hands on that new, big King Tiger and Flak 88."

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:12 am

dragon53 wrote:Badcat's blog comment on the 1/18 Phantom--it "is a dead horse":

Then there's the consumer in this equation. The biggest fear is the returns. Anybody spending this much money on an F-4 may be a little on the picky side and want to return it for a better one. (I just dealt with an Ebay guy who was livid that the corner of his Yellow 7 box was banged and he demanded a full refund + shipping + return shipping + compensation for his time returning it or ELSE!) 1:18 customer returns have had a huge negative impact on this industry and this scale, something that is much less frequent in the smaller diecast models. Secondly, there's a vocal minority who clammors for particular item, then when it's released finds a convenient excuse not to buy--didn't like the paint scheme, the antenna is a mm too long, they'll wait until they're on clearance for $10 . . . etc.. These two factors alone, are enough to keep the manfacturers at bay--and I'm not saying anything they don't already know.

I *really* like this paragraph....so true, so true...

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:13 am

From Dragon53's Badcat quote:

Then there's the consumer in this equation. The biggest fear is the returns. Anybody spending this much money on an F-4 may be a little on the picky side and want to return it for a better one. (I just dealt with an Ebay guy who was livid that the corner of his Yellow 7 box was banged and he demanded a full refund + shipping + return shipping + compensation for his time returning it or ELSE!) 1:18 customer returns have had a huge negative impact on this industry and this scale, something that is much less frequent in the smaller diecast models.

I wonder if the industry can get together and offer some of these up as seconds? There must be some savings there. There's lotsa folks looking for parts and complete planes to modify or paint up in otherwise unavailable markings. In fact doesn't 21c already do some of this with their e-store?

dragon53 · Post by **dragon53** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:19 am

I'm disapponted---I was looking forward to a Steve Ritchie F-4D.

Now it's apparently up to Blue Box for a Steve Ritchie F-4D version of their 1/32 F-4J. I assume I'll be disappointed in that respect, too.

supersonicfifi · Post by **supersonicfifi** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:03 am

PROMISES ??????

supersonicfifi · Post by **supersonicfifi** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:05 am

DUAL PACK in 1/18 SCALE F4 vs MIG 21 or 17 .... what a huge box !!!!!

King O' Fools · Post by **King O' Fools** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:21 am

The Cat is full wisdom:

"All those vocal, passionate pleas may not be backed by real, American dollars and carry the weight desired. The ones that do purchase will inspect with a keen eye and returns can be expected to be high."

So people don't like paying for defective merchandise, especially if the price tag is high. Who knew?

Of course, it helps that your quality control procedures are non-existent.

Flytiger · Post by **Flytiger** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:41 pm

You can buy perfection, but it ain't cheap, and large chunk of the price supports having spares, replacements and people to handle returns and repairs.

I have over 65 1:18 airplanes on display and room for some more. At the prices I've paid they are exactly what I need for the purpose.

They're on their landing gear, nose down on the walls to marvel at from below (the walls are 12' and nearly 14' in places).

For me I like just having them around. But there's an oh wow factor when someone comes into my office. No one sits down in a hurry. And I've never had anyone able to point out any flaws even if there were any.

For me, the chance to get someone interested in aviation history is priceless.

But would I have done it at ~$350 or more per plane? No. Signed artwork, yes, and I did enough damage on wooden "desk" models at over $100 a pop over the years. When you compare those things to what we now get for less than half the price it's a wonder anyone still sells them.

So is there resistance at the typical 1:18 quality level (good to very good, IMHO) for a ~$150 plane like a B-25 or Phantom? Probably, especially if there isn't a place to put it and again depending on the buyer's purpose. But for my use, no resistance at all. Plus I have nephews, grandsons and grand-nephews to hand them down to some decades from now (I hope!). (Nope - no girls, yet.)

I think the one thing we can all do to encourage an expansion in this market and hasten the delivery of more new products is to relentlessly promote history - these products are ideal gifts and each gift might result in yet another collector coming on board. I've never heard the phrase "Oh, not another airplane!"