Small Scale Military Headquarters

It looks like we are almost all on the same page.

Keep the input coming . Jackson and I have the measurements and he may just start laying the decals out.

As an extra bonus. BUT NOT 100 % YET. He may be making a decal sheet for the instrument panel.

He MAY make a small sheet that will cover the faces of the gauges.. Lay the decal on the heads and push them through the bezels.

This could just work but we need to go though a trail and error step before this is a confirmation.

My vote is yes as well.

pickelhaube wrote: He MAY make a small sheet that will cover the faces of the gauges.. Lay the decal on the heads and push them through the bezels.

This could just work but we need to go though a trail and error step before this is a confirmation.

So.............are the dials going to be individual dials or is the entire panel going to be in one piece, so that after the decal has set we push the outer cover over the dials (piercing the dried decal sheet)?

Jay wrote:

pickelhaube wrote: He MAY make a small sheet that will cover the faces of the gauges.. Lay the decal on the heads and push them through the bezels.

This could just work but we need to go though a trail and error step before this is a confirmation.

So.............are the dials going to be individual dials or is the entire panel going to be in one piece, so that after the decal has set we push the outer cover over the dials (piercing the dried decal sheet)?

The entire panel will be in one piece. That will push through once dried.

I vote Yes, on the crosses.

Although the swastika placement doesn't make sense, it looks

These are all the guys that want to buy one of Pickel's Horten 229's.

4 days ...... I needed a 229 fix..........

Well I have been busy trying to get my back log of orders out but I had a chance to make the molds for the dash .
I will make a couple of copies and ship them out to Jackson so he can fiddle around with them to try and make the dash decals a reality.

I said TRY

Anyway they will probably go out Tuesday and hopefully I will be done with my backlog by then so I can get back on this project.



BTW

That painting is totally cool Normandy

The 229 going against B-29s

Pickel, I know you've got a ton work keeping you busy.........after all you are our only 1:18 source .
I just thought it was a cool picture. The more I looked at it, the more I liked it.
Once your Horten kits are finished I'd like to try a forced perspective photo (pic). A 1:18th 229, a 1:32 Mustang and a 1:48 B-17. Might be fun to try.

Not that it's going to undermine my enjoyment of PH's Horten when I get it (!!!) but, in hindsight, we know that all the cool "Luft '46" pictures of the Horten ripping through formations of B17s and B-29s are probably physically impossible, because the 229, as we see it in these pics and as it will be depicted in PHs model, was too much of a bear to fly, especially at the speeds it was intended to achieve.

... as a matter of historical interest, the very "St. Peters" of aviation, Edwards AFB, is indirectly a shrine to the instability of the kind of design the 229 exemplified, since Glen Edwards was killed serving as a test pilot on the Horten-derived XB-35:

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/diaries.html

gburch wrote:Not that it's going to undermine my enjoyment of PH's Horten when I get it (!!!) but, in hindsight, we know that all the cool "Luft '46" pictures of the Horten ripping through formations of B17s and B-29s are probably physically impossible, because the 229, as we see it in these pics and as it will be depicted in PHs model, was too much of a bear to fly, especially at the speeds it was intended to achieve.

... as a matter of historical interest, the very "St. Peters" of aviation, Edwards AFB, is indirectly a shrine to the instability of the kind of design the 229 exemplified, since Glen Edwards was killed serving as a test pilot on the Horten-derived XB-35:

http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/diaries.html

Everything I read said that it performed well in the air and out maneuvered an me-262 in a mock dogfight. The German test pilot and Horton prototype crasher due to a engine malfunction or flame out. German Jet engines lacked the necessary metal alloys to make them very reliable or long lasting, this is why the 262s were built to swap out motors easily. All in all I think that the design was sound but the engines needed the alloys that Germany had been starved of by 1945.

Yeah, that article really doesn't say anything about the capabilities of Horten's wing. It seems more a testament to Northrup's lack in this regard.

it is very possible the Go 229 would have been unsuited for combat. Stability problems could have been considerable and potentially unsolvable with 1945 technology. Flying wings which are just intended to fly straight and level have had stability problems and the b-2 needs a bank of computers making constants micro corrections for it to be able to fly.

To fly as a fighter would require good handling and stabilty for the pilot to retain control of the aircraft during manouevering and i doubt the Gotha would have had that back in '45. At least the very least they would have probably needed to add horizontal tails, like the northrop flying wing bomber....that would at least solve the problem of where to put the swastikas.

Speaking of which, note in Normandy's picture there are no swastikas on the plane...it is very possible none would have been carried in real life. An alternate position for them, that i thought of would have been in the same place that Pickel has them (the 'tail feathers') but on the underside instead of the top side, where they would be sheltered from the jet exhaust.

aferguson wrote:it is very possible the Go 229 would have been unsuited for combat. Stability problems could have been considerable and potentially unsolvable with 1945 technology. Flying wings which are just intended to fly straight and level have had stability problems and the b-2 needs a bank of computers making constants micro corrections for it to be able to fly.

To fly as a fighter would require good handling and stabilty for the pilot to retain control of the aircraft during manouevering and i doubt the Gotha would have had that back in '45. At least the very least they would have probably needed to add horizontal tails, like the northrop flying wing bomber....that would at least solve the problem of where to put the swastikas.

Speaking of which, note in Normandy's picture there are no swastikas on the plane...it is very possible none would have been carried in real life. An alternate position for them, that i thought of would have been in the same place that Pickel has them (the 'tail feathers') but on the underside instead of the top side, where they would be sheltered from the jet exhaust.

I agree and the most important thing to remember in thinking about feasibility is that by 1945 Germany did not have the fuel or enough capable pilots to make it effective even if there were no handling problems. We are just lucky that the war didn't start in 1945......

aferguson wrote:it is very possible the Go 229 would have been unsuited for combat. Stability problems could have been considerable and potentially unsolvable with 1945 technology. Flying wings which are just intended to fly straight and level have had stability problems and the b-2 needs a bank of computers making constants micro corrections for it to be able to fly.

To fly as a fighter would require good handling and stabilty for the pilot to retain control of the aircraft during manouevering and i doubt the Gotha would have had that back in '45. At least the very least they would have probably needed to add horizontal tails, like the northrop flying wing bomber....that would at least solve the problem of where to put the swastikas.

Speaking of which, note in Normandy's picture there are no swastikas on the plane...it is very possible none would have been carried in real life. An alternate position for them, that i thought of would have been in the same place that Pickel has them (the 'tail feathers') but on the underside instead of the top side, where they would be sheltered from the jet exhaust.

Swastikas could go in same spot but underside...or anywhere you choose or not at all...Swastikas are just an option since there will be no fire and heat comin out of those engines on a static model but they look cool there IMO anyhoo....TJJ

i agree they look neat on the top tail feathers...i find it interesting to speculate where the luftwaffe would have put them, if they used them at all. Since the swastika was an important symbol of nazism, you'd think they would have put them on somewhere. All german aircraft had them, save the V-1, which had no national markings at all.

Jnew: jet fuel was not in short supply and was relatively abundant. Pilots were another story and given this plane would have been at the very least quite tricky to fly, that would have been a huge problem. But it would have been a problem for most of the german wonder planes like the Lerche, Triebflugel etc. That's what made planes like the Komet and Natter so appealing. Not a lot of pilot skill was needed for either. Had the war started in '45 these planes still would not have existed. It was the urgency of losing the war that stimulated their development.

maybe they would of used 2 Bf 109 size or smaller swastikas that sat same area maybe closer to end of manta ray tail on each side of of centerline which would put them out of harms way from engine blast.... I reckon....TJJ

aferguson wrote:Since the swastika was an important symbol of nazism, you'd think they would have put them on somewhere. All german aircraft had them, save the V-1, which had no national markings at all.

It's funny you mention that, as I just git my Revell 1/32 Arado Ar 196A-3 in the mail Monday and the box art is missing the swastika - no doubt to satisfy the sensitive types.

PS - Looking in my closet, I see that my Ju88 and He162 are missing the swastika, but my BF110 (kit from 2007) and Me163 (from 70's) do have them on the box art and in the decal set. Looks like I need another of those decal sets 21C used to sell.

Was flipping channels about half an hour ago and came across this on the national geographic channel:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/e ... b-Overview

i then did some more searching and found the whole video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jUlZNJYdDI

thought this was pretty cool.

aferguson wrote:Jnew: jet fuel was not in short supply and was relatively abundant. Pilots were another story and given this plane would have been at the very least quite tricky to fly, that would have been a huge problem. But it would have been a problem for most of the german wonder planes like the Lerche, Triebflugel etc. That's what made planes like the Komet and Natter so appealing. Not a lot of pilot skill was needed for either. Had the war started in '45 these planes still would not have existed. It was the urgency of losing the war that stimulated their development.

Speaking of that have you or anyone else built a Natter? I would love Mathew to build one in 1/18

I know there aren't allot of Luftwaffe buffs in 1/18 but I think it would sell, but the best part is that its so small and simple.

Jnewboy wrote:Everything I read said that it performed well in the air and out maneuvered an me-262 in a mock dogfight. The German test pilot and Horton prototype crasher due to a engine malfunction or flame out. German Jet engines lacked the necessary metal alloys to make them very reliable or long lasting, this is why the 262s were built to swap out motors easily. All in all I think that the design was sound but the engines needed the alloys that Germany had been starved of by 1945.

I'd be very skeptical of any reports from the period -- things were so confused in the last few months and weeks of the Nazi regime that we often only get little fragments here and there from only a single point of view, with no corroboration and not much context. I'm at the point where I've read a substantial amount of what's available on the development and implementation of the A4/V2, and I've definitely noticed that whole threads of the story just evaporate into speculation in the Spring of '45 -- and that was a program that had both post-war superpowers' intense attention.

[CAT]CplSlade wrote:Yeah, that article really doesn't say anything about the capabilities of Horten's wing. It seems more a testament to Northrup's lack in this regard.

From the point of view of an aeronautics amateur, I'm pretty sure the problem lay with pure flying wings in general. I can well remember my dad talking about Vought's work on near-flying-wings and how they struggled with the issues. At one level, I think there's a kind of aesthetic obsession that can happen to aeronautic designers -- a shape becomes THE thing and gets pursued to the detriment of everything else. Before the age of computer-aided control, I feel like the "Horten dream" may have been like that. Looking at the 229, it's easy to see how such a thing could happen ...

aferguson wrote:To fly as a fighter would require good handling and stabilty for the pilot to retain control of the aircraft during manouevering and i doubt the Gotha would have had that back in '45. At least the very least they would have probably needed to add horizontal tails, like the northrop flying wing bomber....that would at least solve the problem of where to put the swastikas.

If I wasn't spending so damned much money on my 3D printing insanity, I'd buy two of PH's kits and make one with vertical stabs (which I'm sure you meant above), just to see what it would have looked like ...

aferguson wrote:Since the swastika was an important symbol of nazism, you'd think they would have put them on somewhere. All german aircraft had them, save the V-1, which had no national markings at all.

... also not the V-2

aferguson wrote:Jnew: jet fuel was not in short supply and was relatively abundant. Pilots were another story and given this plane would have been at the very least quite tricky to fly, that would have been a huge problem. But it would have been a problem for most of the german wonder planes like the Lerche, Triebflugel etc. That's what made planes like the Komet and Natter so appealing. Not a lot of pilot skill was needed for either. Had the war started in '45 these planes still would not have existed. It was the urgency of losing the war that stimulated their development.

It's hard to get a handle on what the most important shortages were at the end. I HAVE read that fuel was in short supply in some places. Both alcohol and liquid O2 definitely were for the V2 in some places and at some times. But, as for the Japanese, the shortage of well-trained pilots was a problem everywhere.

Jnewboy wrote:Speaking of that have you or anyone else built a Natter? I would love Mathew to build one in 1/18

I know there aren't allot of Luftwaffe buffs in 1/18 but I think it would sell, but the best part is that its so small and simple.

I dunno -- the popularity of all the Luft birds that have been made in 1/18 seems to indicate there would be interest for just about anything ... The Natter would actually be a good project for 3D printing ... I could get to it some time in the 2020s ...

I have thought about doing the Natter. I have gotten a book on the subject a few years back. The same publisher of my Horten 229 book as a matter of fact.

It is on my long list of things to do. Which never seems to get any shorter.

I build something then something else pops into my head that I add to the list.

It is never ending.

I may in the far future put the Natter and the He 162 up for a poll and see who will win.

Those 2 would be so much smaller than the 229.

Smaller means easier

So far I have spent 5 1/2 FULL weeks on the Horten. These full builds do take time.

A wise person on this board has told me to keep with the mod kits.

There is something to be said about that.

But as a whole the build has been fun to do but I sure would like to wrap it up.

I foresee another 2 weeks and I hope it will be a wrap.

yes i meant vertical tail not horizontal for the Gotha.

pickelhaube wrote:I have thought about doing the Natter. I have gotten a book on the subject a few years back. The same publisher of my Horten 229 book as a matter of fact.

It is on my long list of things to do. Which never seems to get any shorter.

I build something then something else pops into my head that I add to the list.

It is never ending.

I may in the far future put the Natter and the He 162 up for a poll and see who will win.

Those 2 would be so much smaller than the 229.

Smaller means easier

So far I have spent 5 1/2 FULL weeks on the Horten. These full builds do take time.

A wise person on this board has told me to keep with the mod kits.

There is something to be said about that.

But as a whole the build has been fun to do but I sure would like to wrap it up.

I foresee another 2 weeks and I hope it will be a wrap.

The Natter is such a little bugger, smaller than the Komet!!

Incredible concept, in your book does it say it was ever used??

I have read conflicting accounts.

(Pull one lever all the rockets envelop the B-17, Pull the other lever and you blow up and land in a parachute....)
Crazy... Like a fox? or just crazy??

Natter was never used in combat. Only one manned flight which ended in death of pilot when canopy flew off (probably simply not latched properly).

The natter was a good concept that overcame the chief drawbacks of all the other jets and the Komet...the need for a runway to take off and land, where they were very vulnerable. Natter needed no runway since it took off vertically and didn't land at all. Easy to fly, only very basic piloting skills needed. Cheap wood construction and the engine would theoretically be recovered after each use. Hundreds of Natters launched at a bomber stream could have shot down huge numbers of planes.