Phantom II for 89.99?

[STUKA]

we had thunderstorms and rain - heavy fog tonight...

[Jericoeagle1]

No, no A-10, stop asking everyone.

Sorry Bud, I just can't because I'm a rebel with a cause!

Sorry TKO, I just can't for reason quoted above...

Well maybe in a few days when the dust settles

[chunks]

For A-10 lovers (me included so don't lynch me)

Cool plane! Rugged to the hilt! Very popular with most people! 21st must have thought the same at one point. They built one. I have seen the hog in 1:18 on it's gear in all it's glory. Is it cool YES! Do I want one YES!

Does it really have schemes that 21st at this time feels will sell well enough for folks to buy more than one.... NOPE! Does it mean it is a dead issue for 21st... not exactly.

A-list?... YEAH, I think so. But, this big stuff is really really new! You got only a small handful of these big guys to draw sales research on! You know... the A-10 is just suffering from timing. And right now it isn't it's time. Phantom sales could change that perspective in both camps! So perhaps we will get 2 of those next year!

I wish someone would make one already just so you hunger strikers could get a hot meal!

I wanna talk about something else! You guys are wearing me out. -What is the weather like where you are at?

Great news on the possibility for the a-10.

The weather here has been awesome. I'd only plowed my driveway once this year, and that was only as a just in case!! Even wood burning as been light (only because insulation up here is such that it can reach the upper 90's inside with wood heat). dead dinosaurs can be so much easier to deal with.

I really feel for the folks that are dealing with winter's they're not used to.

[pokeyjtc]

Okay, I've gone and played hockey since my last post and gotten my frustrations out and cleared my head about this whole F-4 debacle. Here's the conclusion I've come to.

The most frustrating thing about this to me is the duplication that keeps happening. We could have six new planes in the 1:18 world instead of 3, 2 versions of F-86, ME-262, and now F-4. That is just what is driving me nuts about this whole thing. That means that instead of the having to decide which companies version of plane I want to buy, I could have six planes that are all different. That would make me much happier. Just think, instead of having to decide which F-86 you wanted, you could have an F-86 and a P--51B/C. Intead of just choosing a ME-262, you could have a ME-262 and a P-39. And finally, you could have a F-4 and a F-100 and really get that Vietnam air support going.

Which company's will I buy? Well, I'll probably have to decide that based on availibility, paint schemes, and model. Do I like the idea of a year from now being able to walk into WM and hopefully find a F-4 on clearance, you bet.

By the way, its 36 degrees and windy here right now. That's cold for Houston.

[supersonicfifi]

i am really sad & excited ! thes days i am getting worried by the place i will need for all the exciting stuff coming (1/18 & 1/32) ! a few monthes ago i really hesitated between AT & 21c F 86 because due to space storage i must elect only one model at a time (except my 2 F 18 bbi navy & blue angels i don't want to have twice the same)
So i choose the 21c F 86 because the pilot is cool and the finished product is really nice; but after seeing "in flesh" the AT me 262 i was begining to hesitate !!!!!
i've just seen the fantastic offer of 21c for their Phantom (you can choose a lot of short or long noses versions !!!!) but i am really frustrated of this situation because AT seems so dynamic (the skyraider is high on my vietnam wish list ...)
So to help promote my hobby i will bought the AT vietnam phantom & wait for 21 c for a complete different version (like an F 4 g wild weasel of desert storm ?)
Anyway we must support ADMIRAL because the quality is skyrocketing & their choices are interesting (a1 skyraider in sandy config.)

so let's hope they will complete each other's and the huge 21c wille let some breathing space to AT

This competion is nonetheless good for us because of the new tempo applied buy AT ! thanx a lot jason and keep chargin' !

PS : to jason do not forget me here in France !!!!!

[der Vogelfänger]

Well, I am personally getting sick and tired of this "Me too" bulls**t. Instead of trying to undercut an honest competitor, show some balls, 21st, and do something new and different. The industry is big enough for both of you--and instead of wasting time and money creating duplicates just trying to show up your competitors, try to come up with something new that takes the whole industry farther. So when is the Hellcat or F-16 announcement coming? Where's the M1A1? Or is bbi a little better connected in China than you want deal with?

I'm with you Bro, and agree with Chunks. Black Dragon One makes an excellent point as well, and that is 21st has never announced a price before, they have always let the retailer do this, so this is obviously directed at countering Admiral production.

Market competition is a great thing, it breeds excellence, and results in better pricing (which is why I wish we could change public schools to competetive private, but thats another subject). I guess the reason I dont like this situation much is that 21st is the big guy on the block and rarely gives us any updated information, it is always at least 2 months old from what we see and hear at retailers, i.e. anyone notice the new announcement of Tuskegee Mustang on the web site last week? Hell, folks already had theirs out of the box before the announcement showed up on the web site (no attack on you TKO211, you do a great job with what little 21st tells you). Now Admiral comes along and truly cares about the collector and what we want, has outstanding customer service, develops what it is we want (262, Dauntless, SkyRaider, F-4) and 21st decides to undercut them using their Walmart profit muscle. If Admiral hadnt turned up, we'd really be screwed and wouldn't know anything. (I remember the old days before Admiral when 21st would rarely respond to any input. (hell, they still dont except when they must, anyone remember 21st's Me-262 announcment after Admiral unveiled theirs?)

Maybe I wouldnt mind so much if it was BBi, they treat us like dirt as well. I will still buy new Armor from 21st and any aircraft that Admiral doesn't make becasue I dont have another option. But, I can guarantee that I will put my money where my mouth is and purchase at a higher price for the service and respect of Admiral. You get what you pay for; Walmart prices for Walmart/21st service.

I know this turned in to a rant, but I'm going to support Admiral in this. And lets not forget Badcat, they will have a lot at stake in this venture and they deserve some consideration in all of this as well. They could stand to lose big if their venture with Admiral is undercut by 21st. Again, I'm willing to pay more for the great service and loyalty that Admiral Toys gives, and that 21st has long forgotten.

The last paragraph, in particular, is paramount! BadCat was screwed-over by 21C in the Avenger deal, now the F4....this is not coincidence IMHO...it is a shame. Appropriate words CW4USARMY.

dV

[shadow83]

I know that a lot of people say that 21st and AT sharing upcoming plans would be a bad idea for them but all 21st did again is cut there profits in half by releasing the same plane.I know most of us will probably buy both versions but the average joe who isnt really into the hobby wont need or want 2.I know that 21st will have more of a customer base selling through walmart but there distribution is so F'd up that most stores will never see them.Just like the mustangs,you go to any toysrus and you can find shelves of them left,same thing with 21st's at walmart.I think if 21st waited a year or 2 and released the f4 they would have soldbetter the they probably will because everyone that didnt get ATs will buy one in a heartbeat.

As for the A10 not having enough variety,look at the avenger there really are only 3 schemes and at least with the A10 you could change up the ordinance and paint.Just my 2 cents(for what it worth)

[Light.Inf.Scout]

I might be in the minority here, but I love 21st C - they got me collecting again, and always prefer to buy from them. I don't really use BCA either so I can't wait for the F 4 from 21 C. Plus it saves me 50 bucks! Money and space in my house are limited so I have to be choosey with what I buy. Man, I need a bigger house.

[tkjaer21]

Dissapointed? Now, knowing about the duplicate, I wonder if AT will wait on selling this plane due to the fact that 21st is coming out with one. 21st will make this plane regardless as history has shown us. AT makes a nicer plane, 21st is nice as well with better figures as pilots. Both in case are great for each company and the collectors. However, I think that one of the two companies should put their version on the backburner and produce a plane that we want such as an A-10, F-14, F-15, A-7, F-100, F-105 or anything new in WWII. Anything will be nice but a duplicate. It seems that we as collectors are waiting years for our favorite planes to get made. With 2 out of the 3 companies competing over the same thing and spending many months to a year producing it, I personally feel disappointed and think that wasted time would be more constructive in creating something newer that is not a duplicate. We as collectors will buy anything new, not all of us are completist and have the space. I myself, have one of every model, not different versions or variants, just one of each model.

[vulgarvulture]

Call me a selfish bastard, I don't care. My ultimate plane is being made in 1:18 at long last and I could not be happier. Who really knows what goes on behind the scenes in this industry, intentionally or not? I sure don't and quite frankly my life is full enough with well, just living, and all things good and bad that come with that to fret over the toy business. Surely, I do understand the frustrations expressed here so don't get me wrong. But for me I'm happy as a clam as a collector and will ride this 1:18 pony for as far as it can take me and will let the professionals deal with the business end of things.

[KAGNEW]

after sleeping on it
i think its great that there will be 2 1/18 Phantoms
the more the merrier. i will buy both. and at some future date take the best parts off both & make a super Phantom model

[nfafan]

And for many of us, a non-issue.

Many of us will not be able to afford the e-tailers offering of an F4E, and won't be able to find an F4E at Wallyworld. So, no F4E for me.

[Sabrefan]

I tend to think the Admiral version of the F-4 will be out when they say it will be. Given 21st Centurys history, who knows when we will see their Phantom model.

[Shin Densetsu]

wait so the one on the flyer is a 1/32 model? HEy I guess that confirms it has retractable gear!

[tkjaer21]

There will be more versions of the F-4 from 21st alone, They are making the C,D,E,J,and S I believe. That is more than enough to go around. Plus the F-4C from AT. That is just too many. Please make something else and only have either AT or 21st make the F-4.

[warhawker]

I KNEW it! I voiced one of my concerns related to this subject on price point just YESTERDAY:
viewtopic.php?t=7186
and BAM we get this news about the undercut and ANOTHER duplicate!
We can all speculate as to who was doing what and when the time frame on what model for what items in this quarter, etc, etc whatever of the three manufactures!
So the real question is this, what are the odds of three aircrafts, Sabre, ME-262 and now F-4 being put into production at rougly the same timeline by two manufactures? Almost in the realm of astronomical? Its like Ford saying 'we are going to produce three classic cars this year!' and then all of sudden, GM stands up and says, 'Wait we as well had on the books to put the EXACT same classic cars into production with some other flare this year as well, but we have ALWAYS had plans to do these, it was just the right time to do them.'
Sorry TKO, I call somewhat of a BS the happenstance and timing of all this and to boot 21st already putting out a price as well which they have NEVER done? There is more to the pie than this three pieces.
I think we as collector aficionados do not see the whole pie. We are sometimes focus on why my favorite tank/plane/figure is not being built where as the manufacture its about the big pie in the sky, its about market dominance and over-all profit!
In my option, this is a classic case of David & Goliath or Swordfish/Bismarck scenario for us WWII history buffs. AT the smaller start up toy company that puts out a superior and higher standard product that includes great customer service against a larger giant-foe 21st that deals in mass production with a design staff, master molders, marketing staff with staff upon staff titles that deal with the largest retailer. Its simple. 21st got worried and is now throwing resources and might against what AT is trying to do in the market.
My only advise is AT needs to keep an eye on their China manufacturing cause there obvious a leak somewhere.
I just hope the AT Swordfish can keep putting torpedos in the 21st Bismarck.

[tkjaer21]

I'm wondering if 21st has a bunch of mock up planes already produced. Whenever one company says that they are coming out with one, they then pull that mock up out and start to make it as well. I would not be surprised if the SBD Dauntles is the next duplicate. Please give us something new and not duplicated. We as collectors want all three companies in the market. We will buy anything that has not been done yet.

[Plane Nuts]

In a flash this morning, a stream of clear consciousness came to me on what bothers me in this situation.

21st is quick to offer protests that its not fair to criticize them for running their business how they see fit. And I don't disagree that they have to run their business how they do for good reasons, some visible and some not visible. Fine. But they are truly running a risk of isolating customers and retailers by continuing these actions. And I know that last night they tried to sell off their actions by saying that they had the 262 and F-86 announced long before anyone knew of Admiral. That was true, but it doesn't take out the underhanded tactics they played when the time came up.

I don't remember a lot about the F-86, but I know it was shortly after Bad Cat started taking presales on Admiral's two years ago, when we finally saw prototype images hyping up the 21st version. And I just saw one of 21st's two weeks ago, after I already have two from Admiral in hand.

Then the 262. This was really bad. After a few months of delay, Admiral was finally able to say "The 262 is here and it is going to customers now!!" Shadily, the same day, 21st says, "Look we have the 262 night fighter version for everyone!" And we all thought, "Whew, we're safe. I did not order the Admiral version in vain!" Two days later, the rest remains in infamy!! Oh, did I mention that we still have no clear indication of when the 21st 262 is coming??

Now, for the F-4. Admiral took the F-4 to Toy Fair mainly as a tool to line up new customers. That's what toy companies do, 21st included: Go to Toy Fair for new customers. It is extremely bad manners to take what is supposed to be one company's honest product only to take the opportunity to pull out the trump card just when you know you can do the most damage. Would 21st have lost anything if they had waited two-three months to assess what Admiral might have pulled the market towards? Wouldn't normal customers be more willing to accept two once we all knew more about what Admiral was offering? How much did this hurt possible sales for both companies by suddenly diluting the market? 21st's only reason for announcing this plane yesterday was to hurt Admiral. It was the only chance they had to place sway in the mind of any potential buyers who only do their shopping at Toy Fair.

With all the bluster, both companies put out much the same product. The difference is that 21st has time and experience on their side. As is clear, they have a prototype for just about everything in various states, and they know exactly what the market is and know when the time is right for certain product, like the MiG-15 and F-104. On the flip side, Admiral is new at this game and only has a certain position to be able to do certain projects when the timing is right. If they decide to tackle a project, they must commit the company to doing it. That does not leave much breathing room, but the beauty is that it appears they have done their due diligence and have at least analyzed the business conditions for a wide variety of product. It may not have been good for Admiral to assume (Jason, you know what they say about assume ) that they would be safe with the F-4, but they did and took a chance on it. 21st would not have announced this project without Admiral putting it out there; and that no matter how you look at it is bad form.

And the crappy thing is, that this is exactly what will keep A-10s, F-14s, B-25s, et al. from ever making it on the market. Admiral will not make the same mistake twice. As they say in Texas, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, well, you know, you can't fool me again. (or something like that!)

[tkjaer21]

AT should just make a limited edition with a small amout being produced so that it will be more sought after.

[Shin Densetsu]

Years back at fall toy fair 21st had announced an F-4 and later we were told they decided not to since they could not stuff it into a box.

So we do know that 21st wanted to do an A-10 and an F-4, but now they are bringing the F-4 back. I am not sure if this was before Roy joined the team. But I do remember hearing about the news originally breaking on figures.com then following up months later on these boards I heard it was nixed.

Till now.

To stay competitive, I would think a competitor should ideally put out a different product.

I don't mind seeing 2 phantoms from different companies, however in this case if 21st made something like an F-8, or an F-15 even instead, they would have upped the ante so to speak.

I praise admiral for sticking to their decision and going all out for an F-4 release. Its gonna be a great xmas for all of us.

[Plane Nuts]

Warhawker, my thoughts almost exactly...only in fewer words!! Good job!!

[Sentinel]

I agree with what tkjaer21 just posted about AT. I thought I read that was somewhere close to their policy as was mentioned on thier website back then.

Being a collector and trader, I bought several of AT's original F-86's when they came out, and some were for future considerations.

Now they are on discount status at Badcat.

[GooglyDoogly]

I think many of us will be happy if 21st just admit that, "Yes, we're trying to destroy Admiral. It's just business."

Instead of spinning and spinning around.

Like someone commented, 21st has never made an issue about prices, heck they had NEVER announced a price before.

And now they are trumpeting their 89.99 price tag for their Phantom?!?!

And 21st wants us to believe that nooooo...their decision to release a Phantom has NOTHING to do with Admiral's announcement.

Yeah right...don't insult our intelligence.

They have also announced a possible A-10 too...heck they even built a mock up to make us drool, but since there's no competition on that, they put it on hold.

Unlike with the sabre, 262, or phantom. So now 21st is saying an A-10 is not a viable plane because it has a few scheme? Feh.....or did 21st build that A-10 prototype and showed it to us because there was rumor in the air that BBI was gonna make one? So yes, conspiracy theories are still valid.

Sad...most of my XD are 21st. But like my 1/6th collection, I think in a couple of years, 21st products will disappear from my XD collection entirely.

[Shin Densetsu]

I think many of us will be happy if 21st just admit that, "Yes, we're trying to destroy Admiral. It's just business."

Instead of spinning and spinning around.

Like someone commented, 21st has never made an issue about prices, heck they had NEVER announced a price before.

And now they are trumpeting their 89.99 price tag for their Phantom?!?!

And 21st wants us to believe that nooooo...their decision to release a Phantom has NOTHING to do with Admiral's announcement.

Yeah right...don't insult our intelligence.

They have also announced a possible A-10 too...heck they even built a mock up to make us drool, but since there's no competition on that, they put it on hold.

Unlike with the sabre, 262, or phantom. So now 21st is saying an A-10 is not a viable plane because it has a few scheme? Feh.....or did 21st build that A-10 prototype and showed it to us because there was rumor in the air that BBI was gonna make one? So yes, conspiracy theories are still valid.

Sad...most of my XD are 21st. But like my 1/6th collection, I think in a couple of years, 21st products will disappear from my XD collection entirely.

Actually I think that 21st's A-10 was shown before BBI came to the 1/18 scene with thier hornet.