Phantom II for 89.99?

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:14 pm

Hey, if all of our ranting actually got 21st (Roy) to address us, then it was all worth it! Too bad thay cant do it on a regular basis

Again TKO211, thanks for all that you do! wihtout your updating the website when you can, we'd be more lost on what 21st is doing.

VR,

Andy

USCGSARdog · Post by **USCGSARdog** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:20 pm

tko,

Ditto

-Rob

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:28 pm

tko211 wrote:CW4USARMY-

Actually the plane came in higher from 21st than I expected! Makes you wonder what it might have been if AT hadn't announced 150!!!!

That price was a placeholder, when Matt announced that it's for the Phantom, it changed to TBD in the fine print. Still, TKO please understand, to me the pattern is set. Even If 21c has nothing to gain by talking with Admiral, we asked for that and Jason made the attempt. That needs to be remembered.

Here's a rundown of my currant and future buys to let you know where I come from.

4 BF-109e's all 21c
4 FW-190's all 21c
3 P-47 all 21c
4 p-51 3 BBI 1 21c
3 Corsair 2 21c 1 BBI
2 P-38 all 21c
2 Avenger all 21c (Bunker Hill on preorder)
1 ME-109G 21c
3 P-40 all 21c
1 Zero BBI
2 Ju-87 all 21c
3 P-40 all 21c
2 Spitfire's all 21c
1 Me-262 Admiral
1 F-16 BBI
1 F-18 BBI
2 F-86 1 Admiral, 1 21c
3 F-104's all 21c
2 Mig-15's all 21c
3 Cayuse's all BBI 2 at home 1 at work
2 Pavehawk's all BBI 1 at home 1 at work
5 Hueys all 21c 3 at home 2 at work
2 Kiowa's all BBI 1 at home 1 at work
2 Cobra's all BBI 1 at home 1 at work
2 Apache's all BBI 1 at home 1 at work

For the future:
2 Dauntless's all Admiral
2 Skyraider's all Admiral
2 Phantom's all Admiral
1 88 21c
1 Hellcat BBI
A-10 21c?
Anything else that might be new.

If you take a look at that list you will notice somethings.

The vast majority are 21c
The vast majority are repaints.
The repaints are old.

Admiral has listened and responded. If I can't or don't support that, then repaints are all that's in the future.

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:31 pm

tko211 wrote:Hi Guys,

Officer Candidate Chunks wrote: “Once is a mistake… twice is enemy action”

Let’s look at the facts. 21st Century Toys had announced the Me-262 way before there was an Admiral Toys. Admiral Toys decided to roll the dice and release an airplane that we had already announced and had been in development. As it happens, the 21C 262 project had finally been green lighted (after throwing out the old pattern and starting from scratch) at least 9 months before Admiral made their announcement. Same story with the Sabre. It was in development long before Admiral made their announcement. It had to be. We cannot go from a standing start to product on the shelves in a short time. The process of producing such a large, detailed, and functional aircraft model is extremely time consuming.

21st Century Toys created the 18th scale airplane collectible market. At all times, we have a number of new 1/18th aircraft in development. We do not react to other’s choices. We have no plans for a Hellcat. Why? We studied it and determined that there were other aircraft that were higher priority to develop. Our line for the next two years has already been decided. Admiral again chose to do an obvious A-list airplane. The Phantom was in front-line service for something like 40 years! It has been on the top of our list for years now. It is a very bold choice for Admiral to make based on the realities of this market. For all we know, BBI may have one in development as well. Let’s hope not, but if they do, I’m sure they would not throw away months of work and hundreds of thousands of dollars of development and tooling cost just to let another company have all the sales. We won’t either.

I understand how frustrating it is for the collector, but understand that we have a long range game plan and we are sticking to it. If there is duplication of effort, that’s unfortunate, but the list of A-list airplanes is finite, and the more companies that get into this game, the more this is going to happen. We have a number of other exciting 1/18th scale aircraft announcements planned for the next few months. No, it’s not a Skyraider or a Dauntless! Please understand that while we are not a small mom and pop company anymore, we are still enthusiasts at heart and do our very best to bring our customers the coolest military collectibles we can make.

The retail price is set by many factors, and not in response to outside forces. The lower the price, the more units we can sell. It’s simple economics. In the end, the choice of whose Phantom you want to purchase is yours, but I can assure you, our Phantom will be to the highest standards of detail and accuracy. We’ve put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears in to make it so. My guess is you’ll probably want to buy both.

Roy Sutherland
Designer/Product manager
21st Century Toys

Fair enough, that's one of the three data points I use to make a pattern.

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:42 pm

Well, like the BadCat ad said--just start squirreling money away into your secret from the wife pay-pal account now.

I feel for AT because they are so counting on it being a big hit for them. And, seeing the quality of the their pieces, I am sure it will be. But, this will certainly have an impact. I wish them the best.

Where 21st is concerned, I wish them the best as well. I am sure they will produce a super plane.

As for which one will I buy, I was only planning on buying one. But, with the new situation, I am going to buy one from each. It will afford me to be choosey about scheme.

I hope they are a big success for both companies. I want this to lead to bigger and better aircraft from each company. Hopefully, we will see an A-10 and a B-25 or B-26 soon.

Black Lion VF-213 · Post by **Black Lion VF-213** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:43 pm

I'm not worried for Admiral in light of 21st's F-4 offering. It may be ~$50 cheaper to purchase the 21st F-4 but I feel confident Admiral will make their money goals through their F-4. Admiral will have their paint schemes and 21st will have theirs. Doubtful they will all have duplicates. Considering this is an A list airplane with multiple paint schemes, we collectors will buy at least one from each manufacturer.

Now that the "A" list phrase has been used extensively by tko and the 21st Century President, it's obvious that for me and others on this forum, our dreams of having an F-14 produced will come true. It truly is inevitable. Think of it. What airplane is at the very top of the "A" List of planes? The F-14!! Top Gun, Final Countdown, covers of video games, inspired space ships in those weird Japanese cartoons, GIJoe SkyStriker, the television series JAG, etc.....

As TKO said...to paraphrase him: muliple paint schemes sell airplanes!! I can't think of any other modern airplane that has ever had more colorful schemes than the F-14.

Envision the high visibililty markings of the CAG birds in various squadrons (Jolly Rogers, Tomcatters, Bounty Hunters, Swordsmen, Black Aces, Sundowners, Red Rippers, Vampires, Black Bunnies, etc to name a few) and the Last Cruise schemes of squadrons from the past few years (Black Lions, TopHatters, Tomcatters, etc) of F-14's make this airplane the most obvious choice for either Admiral, BBI, or 21st Century to make.

What a year 2007 would be if they announced this news....

Spudkopf · Post by **Spudkopf** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:48 pm

tko211 wrote:Here is the answer on the A-10 as it has been told to me.

TOO BIG, TOO COSTLY, FOR ONLY a FEW SCHEMES.

You got your camo, and you got a whole ton of boring low vis greys! Compare that to the colorful carrier markings of the phantom, show schemes, thunderbirds, blue angles, camos, other countries!!!!! Kinda starts to make sense! YOU HAVE TO MOVE LOTS OF PLANES TO MAKE ANY MONEY!

Air national guard A-10's ain't goning to cut it! NOW would I personally love to see one for my collection grey or not YES! But I would only need one GREY bird and I would be done! Maybe a camo...

The F-4 is a GREAT choice and THAT is why there is duplication!

G'day

I do have a problem with the above rational in not producing the A-10, in that how many of Wally World customers (not collectors) are seriously going to by more than one F-4 regardless of how many paint options there are available.

Having Just the one scheme available has not stopped the F-16 sales or for the most part the F-18 sales (I'm not including the Bad Cat exclusives here on purpose as they were a limited run) so the fact that the A-10 only exists in two colours schemes in real life should not be a limiting factor, do they make 1/6th scale speeder bikes in pink the answer is NO, they only come in brown.

If you are trying to only appeal to the Wally World customer purely on repaint potential then just use some of A-10 camoflage trial schemes or paint them up in Thunderbird or Blue Angel markings for that matter as this kind of buyer will know no any better anyway and may even give you your volume sales, as long as the authentic schemes are also available then you will still get the collector sales as well.

shadow83 · Post by **shadow83** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:57 pm

I leave my house for 2 little hours and look what happens.

Im also getting tired of all the duplicates.Im just wondering if the 90 dollar price is for wally world or online cause the online price always has a mark up.Also with walmart 21 st hasnt been selling to great so im wondering if we will ever get the chance to buy there,I mean my walmart has 18 avengers for $25 and others have never even seen an avenger.

Shin Densetsu · Post by **Shin Densetsu** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:01 pm

Black Lion VF-213 wrote:I'm not worried for Admiral in light of 21st's F-4 offering. It may be ~$50 cheaper to purchase the 21st F-4 but I feel confident Admiral will make their money goals through their F-4. Admiral will have their paint schemes and 21st will have theirs. Doubtful they will all have duplicates. Considering this is an A list airplane with multiple paint schemes, we collectors will buy at least one from each manufacturer.

Now that the "A" list phrase has been used extensively by tko and the 21st Century President, it's obvious that for me and others on this forum, our dreams of having an F-14 produced will come true. It truly is inevitable. Think of it. What airplane is at the very top of the "A" List of planes? The F-14!! Top Gun, Final Countdown, covers of video games, inspired space ships in those weird Japanese cartoons, GIJoe SkyStriker, the television series JAG, etc.....

As TKO said...to paraphrase him: muliple paint schemes sell airplanes!! I can't think of any other modern airplane that has ever had more colorful schemes than the F-14.

Envision the high visibililty markings of the CAG birds in various squadrons (Jolly Rogers, Tomcatters, Bounty Hunters, Swordsmen, Black Aces, Sundowners, Red Rippers, Vampires, Black Bunnies, etc to name a few) and the Last Cruise schemes of squadrons from the past few years (Black Lions, TopHatters, Tomcatters, etc) of F-14's make this airplane the most obvious choice for either Admiral, BBI, or 21st Century to make.

What a year 2007 would be if they announced this news....

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE!

And while I do love the price of the walmart phantom, I am also discouraged by how hard this might be to find. Well walmart, you got ready and willing customers, so SHOW US THE PRODUCT AT YOUR STORES, AND

THEN

I'LL SHOW YOU THE MONEY!

I love how there will be multiple variants. And I hope we can get a JASDF phantom out of this.,..the 50th anniversary color schemes. you can have 2 whole waves alone with those schemes! Besides if 21st ever makes a JASDF F-104 they will complement each other too, wait...they had F-86's also,,..

Something tells me VF-84 is one of the first F-4J releases.

What will be the deal breaker for me from the walmart phantom and admiral's phantom is the durability and quality. I hear Admiral's stuff is pretty durable. So is 21st, but in my experience, BBI's stuff can be given to 8 year olds and take a beating. I cannot say the same for 21st. yes I play with my toys and intend to recreate vietnam scenes with my phantoms in the future. What I want to know is how durable these can be. I encourage the use of soft plastic and while I realize aesthetics and accuracy are very important, more durability couldn't hurt.

TKO it will be nearly a year before this bird hits shelves. Will 21st make strives to make this the most durable release? I am certain they realize that their fans are not merely content with just staring at the badboys, they must be played with!

And as it stands, I'd like to get 1 from each company in different schemes.

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:01 pm

sorry, i didn't realize TKO had posted those remarks from Roy....the posts have been coming in so fast, that while i typed another post of my own, all those remarks were made and i didn't notice. The fact that i hadn't had din-din yet didn't help either.

As for the A-10, we all know that 21c is BIG on repaint potential of a subject when they decide what to make. Maybe this is because WM forces them to keep their prices very low and hence profit per item is low so they have to count on selling a ton of units to recover costs, i don't know, but whatever the case i think we have pretty much heard the final word on the A-10 from 21c. The GWS foam flyer A-10 is looking better all the time.

Shin Densetsu · Post by **Shin Densetsu** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:06 pm

aferguson wrote:sorry, i didn't realize TKO had posted those remarks from Roy....the posts have been coming in so fast, that while i typed another post of my own, all those remarks were made and i didn't notice. The fact that i hadn't had din-din yet didn't help either.

As for the A-10, we all know that 21c is BIG on repaint potential of a subject when they decide what to make. Maybe this is because WM forces them to keep their prices very low and hence profit per item is low so they have to count on selling a ton of units to recover costs, i don't know, but whatever the case i think we have pretty much heard the final word on the A-10 from 21c. The GWS foam flyer A-10 is looking better all the time.

Aferg, I honestly would not be surprised if BBI made one. They did show a dummy hellcat and A-10 last year or so and look what happened, we actually are getting a Hellcat. For what its worth I am sure the A-10 takes a lot more tooling then the smaller hellcat so I would not be surprised if BBI is working on one as we speak. Not to mention they tend to come out of nowhere with their stuff.

Hence, as far as 21st having their final word on the A-10, I agree, however this is why I say bring on the Tomcat. The 1970's introductory color schemes give you more repaint potential than any other teen fighter.(surprisingly especially against the eagle which has had drab low viz schemes for the most part)

shadow83 · Post by **shadow83** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:07 pm

I think that when it comes to the A10 we should look to AT and jason.They seem more willing to do a larger project even if it offers less options.Dont get me wrong i love them both but 21st alos has to stay within a certain price range due to there primary distributor.

CW4USARMY · Post by **CW4USARMY** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:17 pm

shadow83 wrote:I think that when it comes to the A10 we should look to AT and jason.They seem more willing to do a larger project even if it offers less options.Dont get me wrong i love them both but 21st alos has to stay within a certain price range due to there primary distributor.

Absolutely! Hey Jason!, 21st just just said they arent making an A-10! Market is wide open! Jump on it now,,,,,,Please!

billgiff · Post by **billgiff** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:23 pm

My money will probably be with A.T.'s Phantom. There are three reasons for this:
1) A.T. is a on line company only
2) Walmarts in the North East suck and stocks no good 1/18 xd
3) I refuse to order online from etailers and pay their high retail prices and shipping while everybody else on this board are buying the same planes at W.M. for half the amount.

The board members in N.J., N.Y., Eastern Pa., Mass. and Conn. know what I mean.

scbvideoboy · Post by **scbvideoboy** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:29 pm

enough! What a waste... Does Ford make a Corvette?

And 21c has "Old Crow" P-51 scheme coming out, why??????????

I believe BBI has that ALREADY, move on to something else! Like gee how about a B model?

or how about a Komet 163 to go with the 262's?

I can see why the other guys don't want anything to do with 21C.

Maybe who ever is granting the license should stipulate ONE particular model license to a one company.

DH

Granted I don't HAVE to buy either...

JohnLumley · Post by **JohnLumley** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:32 pm

Holy Phucking Phantoms batman!

I come home from work and... Bam!

These toy companies are going to cause my ceiling to collapse.

Time to start looking for a bigger house.

God I love it.

MIGMADMAVIS · Post by **MIGMADMAVIS** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:32 pm

This is awesome!!!!!

cant wait!!

grunt1 · Post by **grunt1** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:33 pm

From the Bad Cat site regarding the AT Phantom:

"UPDATE 2/13/2007--In the interest of accuracy and world peace in general, we have removed the estimated price of this item. Once we get a firm price from our supplier, we'll post an exact price with the usual "Preorder Special" for all the early birds who are ready to sign-up and get a good deal. We are still several months away from this point, however. Blue Skies.

The most ambitious 1:18 project ever!"

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:40 pm

grunt1 wrote:From the Bad Cat site regarding the AT Phantom:

"UPDATE 2/13/2007--In the interest of accuracy and world peace in general, we have removed the estimated price of this item. Once we get a firm price from our supplier, we'll post an exact price with the usual "Preorder Special" for all the early birds who are ready to sign-up and get a good deal. We are still several months away from this point, however. Blue Skies.

The most ambitious 1:18 project ever!"

Thanks Matt, you done good.

thetatau87 · Post by **thetatau87** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:47 pm

At first I thought the duplication was a stupid waste of effort, but then I thought about it and realized that duplication is actually really good for the collector. It brings more variety and continuous improvement to the market.

If it weren’t for duplication we might still be stuck with repaints of the crappy 21c first run P-51. BBI duplicated 21c by making their own version of arguably the most popular aircraft of all time. They also one-upped 21c by making huge improvements. 21c responded by re-tooling the P-51 to match BBI because they knew that the Mustang market was big enough to support both versions and all the ensuing repaints. This duplication has really benefited the collector because there are at least a ½ dozen really good P-51 versions available with many more on the way as well as detailed gun lockers in the future from 21c. If anyone thinks that this duplication is stupid and would rather have just one company making the P-51, I’d call them crazy!

As for the duplication of the F-4 (as well as the F-86, and Me-262) it was bound to happen. All three manufactures have the same info to base their production plans on which is the popularity of military aircraft. If they all have the same pool to choose from is it really a surprise that AT and 21c have come to the same conclusions as which aircraft will be popular sellers? Not really. It’s a good thing that there has been duplication because there will be more versions available and they will be better and cheaper than if there was no competition. Even if 21c did have advance knowledge of the upcoming AT F-4 you can’t blame them for wanting a piece of the pie. The Phantom is probably the 2nd most popular aircraft ever, 2nd only to the P-51. It served in front line service for decades with many countries as well as all 3 branches of the US military that operate jets and was used by the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds. With all those repaint possibilities I actually think BBI may be losing out if they don’t try to get some of this action too.

The market is big enough to support both F-4 versions because the Phantom is so popular and has so many variations possible. 21c would be stupid not to offer the F-4 through its massive WM distribution network (as bad is it may suck for collectors.) They are able to sell to 1000’s of customers that will never know that AT exists. Would it make sense for 21c to give up that market simply because AT announced their F-4 first? 21c is doing the same thing with its Me-262. The majority of the 21c sales of this aircraft will be to WM shoppers that are not collectors. That is a huge market that AT currently has no way to reach. The WM connection is good for collectors too because many of us have been able to find great deals on Avengers and a few other aircraft that were sent to the clearance rack.

If you are upset that you can’t pre-order the AT phantom and save a few bucks with out wondering if the 21c version will be better then you need to realize that life is unpredictable and you have to weigh your options and make a decision based on the info available. At least you have a choice. It’s easy to make the right decision is there is only one option. Would you really rather have the only choice in the 1:18 Phantom market be the $140 AT version and the schemes they decide to make, or would you rather have the option to get a cheaper $90 version from 21c with a larger variety of paint schemes?

EnemyAce · Post by **EnemyAce** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:50 pm

Well, I've said it before, but here's what I KNOW: 21st probably has mock-ups and pre-production models of at least a dozen planes in their offices and in China that they plan on putting out over the next 3-4 years. That's just the way big companies work, so I completely believe it when 21st says 2-3 weeks after Admiral announces the F-86 that they, too, have the F-86 "in the works" for their next plane, and I believe 21st when they say 2 weeks after Admiral annouces the 262 that they too, have the 262 "in the works" and now I believe them when they announce that they have the Phantom coming that they too, had "in the works."

But what I don't believe for a second is that they didn't bump these planes up in the pipeline and put them in production for the express purpose of hurting Admiral and trying to put them out of business. TKO just admitted as much in this thread: that it is in 21st's interest to damage Admiral, and since they have some modeling money already invested in these planes, to go ahead with them. And if that's cool with you as a 1:18 collector, well, you have your own standards of behavior. But don't any of you think for a SECOND that who is really getting hurt here is us, the consumer, who have lost out on having 2-3 other unmade planes - an F-14, a Black Widow, a B-25, whatever, in our collections. I'm sorry , but I've been with 21st since XD debuted, but they have become the big bad corporate guy with the connections that get whatever plane they choose in the biggest store in America a couple times a year, and they CHOSE to put in production the same planes that the new kid, the family business, the customer-comes first company, has coming out for the express purpose of putting him out of business and reducing the products available to us even more. But then, since 21st just copies Admiral anyway, it's like we have one less company in the business now anyway.

So you can delude yourself into thinking that 21st REALLY had these planes scheduled this way all along, but ask yourself, how many months was it before we saw 21st's sabre after Admiral's came out? And how many months has it been since Admiral first announced the 262 back in Oct/November? And how many times have I read from TKO or his predecessor that it takes "about 6 months" for an item to go from tooling to production?

Ha, now we know why 21st won't announce what's on their upcoming schedule! Because ol' Roy don't know himself until he here's it from Jason!

We've all seen 21st's A-10 prototype, and I'm sure that if Admiral had announced one, tko would have that plastered all over their website. I'd have *really* loved to see Admiral fake an announcement of an A-10 at toyfair, wait until 21st announced theirs a few days later, and then go ahead with something else. Probably they only way we'll ever see an A10, I'm afraid. Remember - every dollar that goes to 21st instead of Admiral for the sabre, the 262, and now the Phantom means that many dollars less for new plane developments at Admiral. 21st is coming out with its planes on schedule regardless due to the big wallydollars. But those sales going to Admiral would have meant MORE planes available for me, and yeah, that cranks me off.

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm

Ok, I can see this. They've stuff waiting to introduce but can't find the right time. Someone else come along and announces it, and now they have it also!!

I'm not slamming 21c, I just wished if this stuff is in the wings that they'd make it available instead of waiting for someone else to announce it instead!!!

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:13 pm

chunks wrote:Ok, I can see this. They've stuff waiting to introduce but can't find the right time. Someone else come along and announces it, and now they have it also!!

I'm not slamming 21c, I just wished if this stuff is in the wings that they'd make it available instead of waiting for someone else to announce it instead!!!

A matter of timing and that's all....
21st may have intended to announce this plane at the NY toyfair all along and was taken by surprise when AT did it first..