BBI announces f-18c

[Beeavision]

If I'm not mistaken I believe BBI addressed the hike in prices due to the rise in petroleum/oil/gas and the ever increasing demands set by workers in China to earn more in wages. Some factories are paying their workers any where from between $18-25 an hour. Not sure about BBI though but it is happening according to what I've heard/read in the news. Since the majority of the process in manufacturing these models relies heavily on petroleum based products anytime the cost goes up per barrel so does everything else. From the plastics they use to construct the models to the fuel powering the factories and ships to get them here. Its like a never ending domino effect of disappointment that neither you or me have any control over. I wouldn't blame BBI but I wouldn't be surprised at all if big oil companies aren't to blame for capitalizing on us all. On the other hand blaming doesn't create solutions just more trouble.

[King O' Fools]

Considering the MSRP for BBI's 160th SOAR Blackhawk, which is essentially an inaccurate repaint (of an outdated mold to boot, only with some minor tweaks here and there), the latest F-18 price hike is just par for the course for BBI.

But insisting that we call this 'rose' by any other name so it doesn't stink to high heaven is absurd.

If it really is fine with you to pony up that kind of moola for a repaint, I'm sure you'll have no problem paying more for a brand new Dauntless that's never been produced before in this scale.

Besides, a highly detailed 1/18 scale Dauntless with movable flying surfaces screams high-end collectible. Another repaint with a few but very noticeable shortcomings, not so much.

[CW4USARMY]

I have a curse of being a completist collector and have the Blue Angels Version, The Black Jolly Roger version and the low vis gray as well as light blue versions, but I'll have to admit, Im not really excited about this scheme, but hey, its someting new so I'll be picking one up to support the cause.

[snake]

People have been wanting BBI to do these F-16's and F-18's for years now.

BBI does this, and lots of posts here slamming BBI for the price on these. Not only complaining about the price, but also criticizing the company itself.

Didn't see this with the F-16, which was only $20 cheaper.

If you don't want to spend $190 on a brand new F-18, then don't. Go spend $300+ on some of their older releases.

Some members here need to realize that the "Walmart days" are long gone. And should be happy that something in 1/18 is being released at all. If it is too expensive for you, guess you won't be buying it. But to call the company a bunch of names, just because you don't like the price, is being overly negative. Something that this forum seems to be becoming lately.

Can't wait for the howls of protest when the upcoming BBI 1/32 F-4 Phantom isn't $49.99 or less.

[Yoxford]

Well said Snake...put my pre order in today...

[Beeavision]

"Why can't we all just....get along?"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eWopfEJq48

[iballdriver]

To review: if you disagree, then shut up and color. Got it.

[snake]

To review: if you disagree, then shut up and color. Got it.

You are fine to disagree with it.

And post as such.

Some of us on here are willing to get the F-18 at the price point that BBI has set. Others aren't. But just because they aren't, no reason to slam the company for providing something that has been asked for, for many years. Simply because it doesn't meet their own price expectations.

This is entirely in line with what I expected the F-18 to be priced at, and I never saw this backlash about the $170 F-16, which is smaller.

Why all the negativity about the highly anticipated F-18?

If it is too expensive, don't buy it. Although I am sure many others will be willing to spend this, to get a brand new F-18 from BBI.

The Dauntless is $150, and seems to be constructed of much thinner plastic, but has had nothing but positive posts.

Seems like just because once you could get these for $80 through Toys R Us, some people feel entitled to still paying these same rock bottom prices, that BTW, caused 1/18 to go under in the first place.

[gburch]

My two cents about the price. As a buyer, naturally I'd like the price to be lower. But, as has been pointed out, I have a choice -- buy or not buy. In hindsight, it seems pretty clear to me that the prices of 1/18 models back in the Golden Age were too low in the only sense that one can ever judge a price: is the price at a level that is low enough to attract enough buyers to generate enough revenue to make the cost of production and sale worth it to the seller. Based on what happened to the producers in the Golden Age, the answer seems pretty clear for those prices.

The fact that we saw the Monkey Depot clearance shows that there was a LOT of unsold product left over from when prices were much lower. Just as with the real estate market now, you couldn't know what the "right" price was until all the overhanging inventory from a period of lower prices cleared out. That left-over inventory had much different economics than new product: What MD was selling didn't have to bear the cost of production, because that was sunk cost for someone else. Now we're dealing with newly produced product of two kinds -- completely new product like the F-14 and the Dauntless, and product that has at least some cost already recaptured, i.e. the "repaints" like the BBi releases from existing molds.

It will take a while for a new price environment to be completely established. But what's now very clear based on the fact that we've seen a second run on the F-14 and another new entrant with the Dauntless is that this new price regime will have NOTHING to do with what was available back in the Golden Age. That, in hindsight, was "irrational exuberance" -- a classic boom-and-bust in a new and unexplored market.

[Phaid]

Of course prices have gone up, mostly because people are spending less on collectibles while at the same time the fixed costs like designing the product and its packaging, securing a production run, advertising, paying employees, etc, have not gone down. So we're paying $170 instead of $80 for the same product so that BBI can make money on a limited production run. It's not hard to understand this.

However, the notion that this is in some way tied to petroleum costs is simply nonsense. If it were true, the cost of every plastic toy would also have doubled. So would the cost of shipping things. But it obviously has not.

[Beeavision]

One of my sources....

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 109430.htm

[King O' Fools]

Seriously, guys, you don't need to root for the home team all the time. Just vote with your wallet, like you kindly advise other people to do.

I say this because there are comments on this thread where those who disagree with this new upward pricing spiral have been labeled "BBI haters".

Justifying the outrageously inflated price for what is basically a repaint of an 8+ year-old model with fully amortized mold tooling costs is fine. You don't need to slam those who might disagree with you. We get it: you think the price is right and you'll gladly pay it.

By that logic, however, the Dauntless (a brand new offering which has a pretty decent pre-order price) should retail for well over $189 (probably $250, if not more), given the level of detail shown in the pictures. What it lacks in sturdiness it makes up for in detail and movable flying surfaces. Heck, it even comes with two pilots. That's a STEAL these days.

So what say you? Are you self-appointed BBI fans willing to pay that much more for the Dauntless — just for consistency's sake?

Or are you simply going to explain away BBI's price hike ex post facto because, if you want an F-18 repaint these days, you don't have any other option but to bite this bullet or get scalped on e-Bay?

[Phaid]

@Beeavision - sure, a 6 or 7 percent hike due to a combination of higher petroleum costs and wage pressure. But that hardly explains tripling the price of a plastic helicopter. On the other hand, a down economy is definitely going to impact the market for $30-50 military collectible toys. As in, impact them to the point that mass market stores don't stock them and they become a niche collector item, which means tremendously higher prices due to low volumes etc.

[iballdriver]

I am not a bbi hater.
i am not stomping my feet.
I am not a complainer, whiner, wailer, or nasher of teeth.
i looked at the pics, liked what i saw, but then saw the price.
Where in any of my statements did i become a crusader against bbi?

[Coreyeagle48]

King of Fools:

I find it funny you make the comments you do because it seems to me the only time you show up on this forum and make comments is in one of three scenarios 1.) you are upset with the QC of a product 2.) the price of a product is too high or 3.) you just feel like having a bitch fit to someone else about something (anyone remember the Raiderad6 incident...I sure do).

That is EXACTLY what some members of this forum are sick of, the constant negativity here from some people, which only seems to show up when a new product is released or something gets someone's panties in a bunch. It is getting old and it is getting old fast. Constructive criticism and comments to improve things are always welcome here and always have been, but this constant crying and whining is just getting ridculous, and it is an utter embarassment to a once proud forum that discussed 1/18 products with dignity and respect.

This isn't about the Dauntles (which you are wrong by the way once again...no crew members come with the Dauntless). This isn't even about the Hornet or the Blackhawk. It goes way deeper. It is how there are some members of this board do not respect this hobby and only want a bunch of cheap crap. People here don't even have respect for the history of these aircraft or the people that flew them. A select few do, but most people again just want a cheap toy to get a rise out of their jollies. It is utterly ridculous. Period. Bottom line is if you don't want to buy this for whatever reason, then don't buy it. End of the story.

The point being made here was that there are certain members who constantly want this and that, but then when it comes out they sit here and have a bitch fit. It's either one way or the other. The issue with the BBI Haters is the fact everytime BBI comes out with a new product, there are certain members who come running to this forum complaining. And they are rarely seen here any other time. Search former posts and you will see it is nearly the same people on EVERY BBI thread complaining about every product they make.

Look around this fourm and look at the members. You will notice a lot have left. It is very clear to see why. They are sick and tired of the garbage and nonsense here and moved on. It's old.

I don't care if I get torched for this post or not. Aferguson can even ban me for all I care. I'm just fed up with the poor attitudes here and the idiotic comments here. I know other people are thinking it because other members have told me much of the same, and I am fine with being the one who has the guts to say it. Just sick of all the negative here and the crap!

Corey

[tmanthegreat]

I have to agree with you there, Corey. The griping and complaining about everything that comes out gets old... Its one thing to offer constructive criticism, but another to go off the deep end. I do agree that it seems like the whining and complaining has gotten to be epidemic as of late and that this has likely driven many long-standing members away.

The high prices (for whatever their cause) are a fact of this hobby now and we have to live with it, even when they come on 8 year old toolings. Quite frankly, the prices we are seeing now are probably a better reflection of the "actual" cost of these items as they were sold below cost during the "golden age" and they also reflect their nature as collectables - not cheap Wal Mart toy aisle toys.

If you can't live with the prices, then don't, or at least save and budget your expenses so you can get the item. I know that if I get an F-18, that will be my "toy" budget for at least a couple months, so I have to hold back on other items and plan accordingly.

As for constructive criticism, that is OK. Noting that BBI got the numbering misaligned on the paint master or that antennas are still wrong, or that the engine nacelles suck on the F-18 is OK, but don't rant on and on about it to the point that you are dissing the company, the product, and the hobby itself. Heck, even noting that the price is high for the item is fine, but don't dwell on it. It just wastes time, energy, and computer memory.

[Tinman]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I feel that this is an expensive release, but I'm getting it anyway. Naturally, there are many other areas of my life that are clamoring for that money. But the thing is, I've been looking online for months for a Hornet, especially the black, Jolly Rogers version. And they were just more money than I was willing to pay (always well over $200).

So I've been hoping and hoping that bbi would release this plane again, and now they have. I'm very excited about it. I love the paint scheme, I think it looks really cool! It's back to my usual problem of space, but I don't care, I WANT this thing, I've been waiting for it, and I'm grateful that I could find a way to pay for it.

And by the way, I also love the bbi Night Raid Black Hawk. Totally worth the price, in my book. Not perfect, but so what. It's really, really cool with the grayish paint and the miniguns.

[King O' Fools]

King of Fools:

I find it funny you make the comments you do because it seems to me the only time you show up on this forum and make comments is in one of three scenarios 1.) you are upset with the QC of a product 2.) the price of a product is too high or 3.) you just feel like having a bitch fit to someone else about something (anyone remember the Raiderad6 incident...I sure do).

That is EXACTLY what some members of this forum are sick of, the constant negativity here from some people, which only seems to show up when a new product is released or something gets someone's panties in a bunch. It is getting old and it is getting old fast. Constructive criticism and comments to improve things are always welcome here and always have been, but this constant crying and whining is just getting ridculous, and it is an utter embarassment to a once proud forum that discussed 1/18 products with dignity and respect.

This isn't about the Dauntles (which you are wrong by the way once again...no crew members come with the Dauntless). This isn't even about the Hornet or the Blackhawk. It goes way deeper. It is how there are some members of this board do not respect this hobby and only want a bunch of cheap crap. People here don't even have respect for the history of these aircraft or the people that flew them. A select few do, but most people again just want a cheap toy to get a rise out of their jollies. It is utterly ridculous. Period. Bottom line is if you don't want to buy this for whatever reason, then don't buy it. End of the story.

The point being made here was that there are certain members who constantly want this and that, but then when it comes out they sit here and have a bitch fit. It's either one way or the other. The issue with the BBI Haters is the fact everytime BBI comes out with a new product, there are certain members who come running to this forum complaining. And they are rarely seen here any other time. Search former posts and you will see it is nearly the same people on EVERY BBI thread complaining about every product they make.

Look around this fourm and look at the members. You will notice a lot have left. It is very clear to see why. They are sick and tired of the garbage and nonsense here and moved on. It's old.

I don't care if I get torched for this post or not. Aferguson can even ban me for all I care. I'm just fed up with the poor attitudes here and the idiotic comments here. I know other people are thinking it because other members have told me much of the same, and I am fine with being the one who has the guts to say it. Just sick of all the negative here and the crap!

Corey

Well, the release of the Dauntless is an interesting development in 1/18 scale, and all the more relevant because it gives the lie to the often voiced excuse that our beloved manufacturers have been forced to jack up their prices by the current economic downturn.

As far as voting with your wallet, fine. Go ahead, but stop lecturing people on how they "don't even have respect for the history of these aircraft or the people that flew them." That's a crude non sequitur (and a load of hooey), and you know it.

See, this putting your money where your mouth is cuts both ways, Corey. You can be a cheerleader for BBI, but other people have the right to disagree with you without being chided for it (or being accused of disrespecting the memories of fliers and aviators whose boots NONE OF US are fit to shine) by the conformist brigade, whose charge you seem to be leading.

And since we're discussing the "bitch fits" of yore, let me remember your meltdown from a couple of years ago on this B/S/T thread:

http://www.warbird-photos.com/gpxd/view ... =3&t=14895

Boy, that was epic. The title of the thread was "Dropping the Scale: 1/18 For Sale, Authentic Models". You didn't respond to a single PM. Talk about being "an utter embarassment to a once proud forum that discussed 1/18 products with dignity and respect."

And, despite your last minute change of heart and not deigning to reply to anyone on this board for weeks, you keep lecturing us on the subject of courtesy and civility and railing against the "BBI haters". Maybe it's just me, but the over-the-top drama sounds rather silly and laughable.

BTW, the Dauntless figures can be clearly seen on this promo picture, but I guess we will find out whether they are included or not in due time.

http://www.merit-intl.com/month/1-27-12 ... 002pts.JPG

[DropTank]

Back to the Hornet, I am on the fence on this release. I think BBI offers decent copies of the F-18 and it actually falls close to the price I would expect. After snagging many of them when BBI and Badcat offered them for much less, do I really need to add another hornet for $200 is my dilema.
Do I need it, no. would I like to have one, yes. Perhaps others will have to decide
just as me on this release and as the saying goes, "to each his own". I am just happy we have a 1/18 release to ponder over.

[Beeavision]

Hey, it looks like BBI has their store up on online. Check it out....

http://www.collectiblestation.com/main/index.php

[astronut1885]

This thread is all revved up. Corey, I'm not sure who you are aiming your comments at, but I sure do have respect, knowledge, and passion for these vehicles and the men who used them. I also have been collecting one thing or another for a long time, and I know when I see a company throttling it's market for all it's worth. The molds and R+D for the hornet were paid for the first time. The supplies aren't that much more expensive, and the details just aren't that good to warrant $200+ by the time you factor in shipping and such. On top of that, they had a golden opportunity to really justify that price, like by fixing a few small details, or maybe even just tidying up those nozzles a little. At least then I could see spending JSI Tomcat (even the Spotcat is more deserving of the price IMO) money on one. I'm not sure what your situation is like, but I'm balancing rent, two car payments, paying off a wedding, paying of a way overpriced education, and still trying to enjoy my life. That means budget, and getting the most for your money. At least if this thing had an attractive paint scheme on it, something historical or even just stereotypical USN Hornet, I can almost justify ordering it. Instead I have to settle on an underwhelming, ugly, rather abstract, over-priced item that is really inferior to previous releases because the manufacturer is well aware of the supply/demand (monopoly) situation they have going on here. That's called getting screwed man, and we have a right to call it as we see it. I'm not hating BBI, I'm just calling BS where I see it and that price is BS.

[NWarty]

Agreed. Good post Astronut

[snake]

Once again, I don't understand the backlash about this F-18, specifically the price.

Even more so, because when the "Enduring Freedom" F-16 came out it was $170, and was warmly greeted for the most part. And got good reviews from those who purchased it, myself included.

This F-18 is only $20 more, and yet some people are jumping all over the company for this, and has caused some heated responses on his forum.

I would like it to be cheaper myself, but put into context, especially with the F-16's $170 price tag, don't think this is out of line. Any new 1/18 release, even repaints, are not going to be cheap, and that is just the reality.

It wears pretty thin when people expect the prices they were paying many years ago, and then start attacking the company because the latest release doesn't meet their price expectations. It is fine to complain about the price, but the price gouging, rip off, etc comments, are over the top, and add a negativity to this forum, which has come to a boil, recently.

You are free to vote with your wallet as well, and if this release is too expensive for you, then don't buy it. Not everybody can afford everything that they want. These are "disposable income" items, and should be treated as such.

New 1/18 has a much higher price than in the past, and not everybody is going to be able to afford it. But ranting against the company providing something that has been wanted for many years, isn't going to change the price, and gets pretty tiresome, pretty quickly.

Some of you guys need to realize the price of other scales to put this into perspective. I recently got a HM CF-18 in 1/72, and that was $70, plus shipping. So, $190 for a 1/18 example doesn't seem unreasonable in the least to me.

I am a member at another forum, and we have interaction with Hobby Master, to provide input, suggestions, and corrections to upcoming models, and schemes. It is all done in a positive, constructive way, and that manufacturer responds, and has a forum presence. Simply saying that dumping on BBI here, and on their facebook page, will not really cause them to pay attention to legitimate concerns, put forward in a less confrontational way.

[astronut1885]

I don't think comparing this to a really nice HM 1/72 CF-18 is fair. That HM model is superbly detailed, painted, accessorized, and is made of heavy diecast metal. This thing is a hair beyond toy, made of plastic, and is very basic in composition. Justifying a scaled up price for a not-equal scaled up product is very slanted. We're not getting a 1/18 scale metal highly detailed hornet here. If BBI knew that their marketing and pricing strategies had shifted from the broad market shelves of WalMart and TRU to the more limited higher end hobby market and it's many E-tailers, than you think maybe they would have upped the ante in terms of detail like HM does to justify the price since many of us are quite picky. Seriously, they put cheap lipstick on a pig and they're selling it at top dollar prices. This thing isn't on par in terms of QUALITY and DETAIL compared to other items in the 1/18 world, so for BBI to presume that their product should command the same prices is just plain off. They basically said "well, we're still the only source for a Hornet, so let's get what everyone else is getting." This is like the George Clooney Batman movie, milking it to death. Problem is, they're just not bringing it like the few other recent 1/18 offerings out there. I'm honestly worried about dropping $200 on the impulse to get a 1/18 Hornet only to watch them actually release an attractive scheme some time around the holidays, and then I'm stuck with this ugly overpriced camo nightmare.

[Coreyeagle48]

Greetings:

With all due respect Astronut, if you were getting a Hornet in 1/18 scale the quality of a Hobbymaster diecast, you'd be paying probably about $1,000 for it. A metal 1/18 Hornet would be extremely expensive and the tooling would be expensive. You would be getting into some very big dollars for that model that many people may not want to pay.

The basic point in my post was that some folks here seem to want it both ways. They want a Hornet, demand it on the Facebook page, demand it here and so forth. Then BBI responds to the clear demand for the Hornet (there is CLEAR DEMAND...Ebay prices, requests to dealers like Badcat and requests to them on the Facebook page have showed them this) and announce it and people go crazy about the paint scheme and the price. It is clear that people want the Hornet and are acceptable with the way it is or they wouldn't be asking for it and preordering it. It is very simple supply and demand. If people do not like it or do not have the money, then they shouldn't buy it. That should be the end of it.

I think BBI might be willing to listen to their collector base if the collector base could control themselves, another point I was trying to make. Putting forth good suggestions such as improving the detail in the engines, making the landing gear stronger and fixing some of the errors would be intelligent and justified communication from the colllector base to BBI. BBI would more than likely welcome that, if, once again, the collector community could control themselves. That part isn't happening. People are cursing, being rude and being disrespectful. Given some of the comments I have seen on the BBI Facebook page, if I were the CEO of BBI, I would have shut the damn thing down and that'd be the end of it. There is a difference between constructive commenting and just being rude and ridculous. And unfortunately I have seen a lot more of the latter lately in this thread and on BBI's Facebook page.

The bottom line is they are going to charge what they want. If you don't like it, you will not be buying it I guess. Some people will be fine with it and will buy it. I am guessing if Ebay demand and pricing is any indication, BBI will be selling some of these Hornets at the announced price. People seem to want them and the level of detail seems acceptable to most because a Hornet can easily be sold on Ebay for a nice price. They may come out with another scheme, we just don't know.

The point Snake and I were/are making is that this negative and rude commenting is getting no one here anywhere. It is not constructive and it will not change the price of the Hornet. BBI doesn't really care what some of the loudmouths think because they blew it years ago when the BBI rep used to visit and they made endless complaints to him about detail, price and totally unrealistic wish lists. It is unfortunate because maybe if the comments had been in a more constructive manner, BBI may have been more willing to listen to the customer base and make positive changes to their products.

Corey