POST F-104 FINDS AND DISCUSSION HERE

Quixote511 · Post by **Quixote511** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:37 am

Yeah--he had to sit in the cockpit for a 12 hour shift---so I was told. They were to be ready to scramble at a moment's notice.
Aaron

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:08 pm

did they have the little canvas tent for 104 pilots like we had for U-2s?
we had a cover on a trolly type cart that was to shade pilots while planing and deplaning

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:43 pm

i've been doing some reading. The F-104C was designed mainly for delivery of tactical nuclear weapons, generally at low level. The B28 or B43 nuclear weapon that it would carry had a ribbon drag chute. Yield on these bombs was between 70kt and 1.1 megaton, depending on the mission.

My question is this: what chance did the pilot have of surviving? Even if it was 'just' a 70kt weapon deployed, that was 3 1/2 times the yield of the Hiroshima bomb. Even with the retarding of the drag chute and travelling at top speed how could the Starfighter possibly outrun the effects of the detonation? I can't believe the delivery of tactical nukes was considered to be basically a suicide mission.

I could maybe see the plane outrunning the blast, which travels at the speed of sound i believe, but the heat travels at the speed of light (as does the radiation), so there is no way it could get away from that and given that it is deploying the weapon at low level it wouldn't have the advantage of initial distance from ground zero, with the subsequent reduction of the intensity of heat and radiation.

Can anyone fill in the blanks for me?

Folkwulfe · Post by **Folkwulfe** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 5:54 pm

I can answer part of that. The speed at which the blast wave travels depends on the air density. The higher the altitude, the thinner the air density. Lower to the ground and the density rises. Thermal radiation from the light travels at the speed of light, however, the thermal radiation deminishes greatly the farther from the blast you are. Again, it has to do with the air density. B29's Enola Gay and Bach's Car both escaped the heat/blast by dropping their bombs and making a diving turn to escape the immediate area before the blast. In the 50's, the USAF toyed with a drop called a "loft drop" in which the aircraft came low and fast to just short of the target area. It then exicuted an Emmelmann (pull up and over on it's back to a 180 degree heading change). During the pull-up, the bomb was lofted like an arcing basketball and exploded at a pre-set altitude upon falling back. By this time the carrier aircraft was at max power headed in the opposite direction and hopefully clear. Everything up to and including the B47 was tried in the loft bombing roll (the stresses on the B47 were found to be too great to practise but the option was retained). Hope that helps some to explain.

Post by **aferguson** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:07 pm

very interesting...i think i've heard of that technique before, now that you mention it. Makes a lot more sense than just overflying the target and dashing away. It would buy some extra critical seconds that could make the difference between survival or not.

I read on here that the wings on the F-104 were painted white to help reduce the effects of nuclear detonation, which i assume means the heat portion...the white reflecting the heat better than natural metal. I gather it was done only on the wings due to their large surface area and thinness, and the natural stresses that are on them inflight...which would make them more susceptible to higher temperatures..

I've seen other fifties and sixties era aircraft that were painted white overall, however..

airforcecop67 · Post by **airforcecop67** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:59 pm

If you look at many of the early nuclear bombers & fighter/bombers of the 50's & 60's you will find that white "anti-radiation" or "anti-flash" paint on the undersides of the a/c. Buffs had it, and even the British "V" series of bombers used it.

Dont know if it would have made a difference. In theory, I suppose, it seemed like an intelligent idea. Probably made the crew feel a little better, although I can picture a crew chief or two snickering at the idea....."See here Captain, we painted the whole bottom white just to keep you safe"

As an aside, since checking on a point for this post, I found that the Brits operated a model of the B-29, called the D model (dont know how much different it was compared to a regular -29....may be it flew on the left) and it was used as their interim nuc hauler until they got the first of the "V" series operational.

Yeah its got nothing to do with the 104, but up until today, I believed that noone but us operated our first nuclear bomber. Just thought I'd share.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:48 pm

airforcecop67 wrote:
As an aside, since checking on a point for this post, I found that the Brits operated a model of the B-29, called the D model (dont know how much different it was compared to a regular -29....may be it flew on the left) and it was used as their interim nuc hauler until they got the first of the "V" series operational.

Yeah its got nothing to do with the 104, but up until today, I believed that noone but us operated our first nuclear bomber. Just thought I'd share.

The RAF operated B-29's and named them Washington MkI's. From what I remember, they operated them from 1950-52 (maybe a bit longer). I remember getting a big kick out of it as a kid, looking through my plane books.

http://www.onmarkint.com/tmp_4/48902.jpg

-Ski

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:16 am

so why is it just the UPPER surface of the F-104's wings that are painted white?

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:58 am

because they'd be attacking at low level but the nuke would be airbursting above them, so the flash, heat etc would be coming from above, not below as in the case of bombers.

(yes, i know i just answered my own question)

JoeS · Post by **JoeS** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:22 am

Hi

I was at the Biggin Hill show yesterday, very enjoyable made more so that the weather was great and all the birds were flying. We had B-17 formation flying with a BBD P-51, another P-51 and a P-47. There was an F-86 too which made me hunger for the 21st release when it comes.

But I struck gold as I managed to pick up the German F-104G Marine jet at one of the stalls run by Aviation Retail Direct. It was nestled in amongst the F-16's. The proprieter told me it was the only one in the UK as it was sent to them for evaluation purposes. They'll be getting more in later in the year. The plane was in in the same Limited Edtion box as I think it was at Comic Con. Anyway it is even more pristine than my F-104C. It appears from what the owner of ARD said that Corgi will be supplying them the F-104 and he said that he was in negotiations with them for some limited runs on the jet. So it seems that there could specific versions for the Euro market. Fingers crossed.

Website · Post by **Teamski** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:29 am

JoeS wrote:Hi

I was at the Biggin Hill show yesterday, very enjoyable made more so that the weather was great and all the birds were flying. We had B-17 formation flying with a BBD P-51, another P-51 and a P-47. There was an F-86 too which made me hunger for the 21st release when it comes.

But I struck gold as I managed to pick up the German F-104G Marine jet at one of the stalls run by Aviation Retail Direct. It was nestled in amongst the F-16's. The proprieter told me it was the only one in the UK as it was sent to them for evaluation purposes. They'll be getting more in later in the year. The plane was in in the same Limited Edtion box as I think it was at Comic Con. Anyway it is even more pristine than my F-104C. It appears from what the owner of ARD said that Corgi will be supplying them the F-104 and he said that he was in negotiations with them for some limited runs on the jet. So it seems that there could specific versions for the Euro market. Fingers crossed.

Sweet! Great to hear that Corgi is still involved with the 1:18 line. What else did the dealer have?? Did he have the other Corgi 1:18 releases, i.e., Spitfire, P-40, Stuka, etc?? I'm happy that this stuff is at least seeing some sort of daylight in the UK and Europe. Well done on the find!

I take it that there was a mini Aero Jumble sale there as well?? Boy, what I would give to go!!

-Ski

JoeS · Post by **JoeS** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:45 am

Hi Ski

Yes I'm getting quite a warm feeling too that Corgi hasn't abandoned the 1/18th line. The dealer had the F-16 from BBi and also a few XD P-38 D-Day, Corgi Stuka, P-40 (RAF) and the F-4U Corsair. Other stuff consisted of Sky Guardians/Witty Wings, the small ready assembled Easy Models in plastic 1/72 WW2 planes- very good they are too. I bought a P-51 Mustang it has the look of a well made injection kit.
Yes right on the money there was much to be had for a few less pennies than your average High Street retailer. The Corgi 1/32 Mozzies were going for less than half price- £35 and the 1/32 P-51's for £20- they are a steal. I refrained from buying given my penchant for 1/18th felt it would be incongruous with mixing 1/32 and 1/18. Other goodies-boxes upon boxes of model kits, custom wooden models and some RC stuff too!

I had been to the Royal International Air Tattoo earlier but that wasn't as enjoyable as Biggin Hill- the atmosphere is far more exciting. I got in as press as my girlfriend is an aviation journalist and I took some snaps for her. We got close to the flightline and spoke to the Spitfire pilots and touched those beautiful planes as well. Felt very lucky snagging the F-104 and getting to touch a few Spitfires!

Take care Ski,

Joe.

JohnLumley · Post by **JohnLumley** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:50 pm

Not a single series 1 silver F-104 on E-bay. Guess they are all gone. 21st hit a home run with that one. There should be more on the way? I hope.

Can you tell I did not get mine yet

fredricchio · Post by **fredricchio** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:52 pm

I know what you mean, I held off buying online because I thought Wal-Mart would have them in by now. And I still haven't seen the Sky Captain P-40, either

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:23 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the F-104 release at Wal Mart did the same thing as the S1 ME-109G - with the planes showing up at WM months after they went to the small retailers. I like it when the releases are timed more closely.

digger · Post by **digger** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:51 pm

Tman is correct - it was a bone they threw to the small retailers I believe....first dibs on the Starfighter....I still can't believe these will be $40 some day....
Shame the small retailers didn't say get 'em or you'll be sorry when it was true. They were saying that about the bbi Corsair which is everywhere

Post by **p51** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:48 pm

For those of you who are not yet convinced to get a F-104 yet... here's some eye candy

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:10 am

O thank God for BadCat
I couldn't have waited for WM.
they are to much hit and miss at WM

Post by **aferguson** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:41 am

Lots of other online retailers carried the F-104 too, not just BCA. Toy Fed, Aviationut, and another place, whose name i forget, had them for around $45.

With SBP gone we need to spread our buying around a bit to keep competition crisp and thus prices lower..

And yes, the F-104 was released to online dealers a few months ahead of the WM release to give them (the etailers) some sales. A good idea on 21c's part and i hope they keep it up. We all need to have lots of healthy sellers around and i don't think any of us wants to be totally dependant on the whims of WM, even with their lower prices.

KAGNEW · Post by **KAGNEW** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:58 am

i know others had it. but Badcat seems to be most reliable and seem to have more exclusive stuff.
i started with SBP, then Big Boys War Toys, etc. but in end i go with best service.

digger · Post by **digger** » Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:11 pm

http://www.wartoyz.com/page/WT/PROD/TC-18/TC10182S1

http://smalljoes.com/21stcentury_xd_xtr ... raft.shtml

Both good places in my book....not to play favorites, but just for those people who don't want to wait for one....

digger · Post by **digger** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 5:10 am

I got a Starfighter in 2 days from Wartoyz. Could be b/c they are in NJ and I am in NY but it was damn fast turnaround. $6.99 to ship, and I got it in 2 days. Very nice.

As for the bird, we've all heard the reviews. I'm actually getting rid of a lot of my stuff but this one I had to order. It is striking, and the detail in the cockpit combined with the narrow wingspan means no reason to hang it; it has to go where someone can inspect it.

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:46 pm

Hi guys,

just find this on a german site. It seems 21st Century will have soon other surprise for us

They says it will be aviable for october.

Take care.

phil

Post by **aferguson** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:51 pm

we heard about that one a few months ago....i believe Ski has a profile of it on his website.

I don't think North America will be getting them as soon as over in Europe though..

Next one after that is the German Marineflieger version...

exether_mega · Post by **exether_mega** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:04 pm

the German version is already aviable for 99euros here in Europe.

Small Scale Military Headquarters

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