Arm Chair Quarterback what 21st should have done

[olifant]

I agree with parish here; it is easy to second guess but we really don't know the reality of 21C's business.

I think WM was both a blessing and a curse to the company. Without the contract they would not have survived but ultimately brought their failure. We can talk about them dictating terms to WM but lets face it, no supplier can get away with that nevertheless a small military toy company.

I think 21C could have addressed some quality issues, but lets face it, these were cheap toys and not museum pieces. I think less than 1% of what they put out was truly unacceptable. That is a pretty darn good quality record for most industries, nevertheless toys. KOF aside I think most of us have been pleased with the vast majority of our purchases.

Packaging smaller may have pleased the stores but I don't think this was anything other than a small issue.

Case assortment could have helped, but the reality is when they invested capital in a new mold they needed to run the bejeesus out of it. Could they really afford to carry inventory and make small production runs to mix four different planes to a case? Probably not. If they could have the discussion here would be how case assortment made finding elusive planes impossible killed the business!

The many varied product lines may have helped or hurt. It did seem 1/32 was very successful and I think a more sustainable scale. At $14.99 each I am not sure they made much money on each item though. As a manufacturer if you can make a buck you do it. My guess is cost to market on smaller scales was more reasonable. It could be 21C did this to try to carry the 1/18 business. Who can really say?

I agree with JJ that more figure releases and smaller, lower price point products would have helped move inventory. I think 21C did listen to the collectors and tried to accomodate us. The reality is we cannot carry this market. WM and TRU were a way to get this out to the masses. Without these big box contracts 21C would have remained an AT. No offense to AT but they haven't given us much in the way of product.

I am sad to see 21C go and I think they were very successful for the time they were in business. Without them my collection would be about 1/4 size.

[c44]

I'm sure somebody from 21CT could write a book on what happened, but they won't (only fellow board members would read it)...businesses vaporize all the time & don't even rate a nod in the local newspaper's business section......so we'll never know the intricacies of what when on behind the scenes (although everyone here seems to know exactly what happened )...but it's a little presumptuous to judge them as failures...they rode the wave, probably reached most of the market that was available in the retail world, put food on their table, & created some of the coolest toys since the days of Louis Marx...maybe they saw it had gotten as good as it was gonna get for mass market military toys and rode off into the sunset...

[Fritzkrieg]

Jesse James really hit the nail on the head.
More smaller price-point items like figures and small vehicles. Spead-out the big armor and aircraft pieces to a few a year. This would have given the line some longevity.

[Black Lion VF-213]

Television or movie plugs. Period. GI Joe, Transformers, Star Wars move toy product because these movies and comic books became part of our youth culture. They continue right on up to adulthood. Military airplanes and vehicles are part of our culture too. And they too move from childhood fantasy to adulthood appreciation. However, military airplanes and vehicles are still eclipsed in our culture in most areas of the USA by what Hollywood and television produce.
What started to sell black Trans Ams in the late 70's? Smokey and the Bandit. 80's Knight Rider...and on and on about certain product placements in entertainment.

The F-104 in Night at the Museum is nice but persons not in our hobby wouldn't have the slightest idea about who makes it much less where to get one. It's spotlight was too short lived.

Get one of 21st or BBI's models written in the script of a G or PG movie or tv show as some sort of a pivotal focal point of discussion and you will have many more witnessing kids asking their parents where on earth can I get a toy figher plane that friggin HUGE?!?! Parents will add that to the Christmas shopping list. Then when they see it at a big box store they will be surprised at how easy it was to find. Junior will end up knowing where they are at and will beg to go down the toy aisle at WM and find clever ways to get parents to go to TRU for little sister's birthday gift and ask parent can I have another one for my birthday next year??

Then 21st should have added awesome publications (inside the box, not printed on the back) on the plane and scheme containing many pictures, quotes, historical significance, air combat maneuvering, maintenance needed, and restored flying examples around today and references on where to see them.

Instead of the worn out amateur "collect all of them" pictures on the back of the box, write in the publication that the P-51 you are holding was part of the "....squadron...know for...and this particular pilot shot down....many BF-109's and became an ace...." Then have pictures and a teaser about the BF-109. Then the kid is hooked and wants the bad guy airplane for his P-51 just like the same kid back in the 1980's wanted a Tie Fighter to be the victim of the X-Wing fighter's attacks. That way 21st develops a beginning appreciation and love of military history that keeps them coming back for more as they grow up.

[c44]

...except none of the toy lines mentioned above (GI Joe, Transformers, Star Wars) break when you play with them...! I remember a review from a mom on Target's site complaining that her FOV toy broke almost immediately after her kid received it (oddly, the review was in a 21CT listing)...these really weren't kid's toys, and the market wasn't sustaining itself with adult collectors at the retail level...we may be horrified at the result, but FOV has adapted with the ugly but less breakable Bravo Team line, and I genuinely wish them luck...but for 21CT's business model there was no place left to go...

[tko211]

One of the single most important factors of what made 21C work was the Mass Retail business model. Much of the systems, project plans, investments, hired/trained personnel was centered around the understanding that Mass Retail was the big target for the company.

In it's early days TRU served as the role as the major distributor. in it's hey day nearly on half of an entire isle was set aside for 21C. This was also magnified at a time when TRU had more stores open than they do today. We all know that TRU changed a buying strategy and closed stores in early 2000's Effectively crushing 21C for a short period.

Then the second chance came around with WM. We all know how that went... it was all roses for the better part of 5 years and then it all stared to go down hill. Finally, it was another shift in buying strategy that caused the second and final collapse.

The failure of 21C is mainly centered on that fact. Yes there were other contributing factors, there were other decisions that could have been different. but all of those stacked up together could not have even measured on the richter scale in comparison to the shock wave of destruction that is caused when your business model is purpose built to rely on Mass Retail.

Do 5 seconds of research on the internet in regard to WAL-MART's effect on small business and you will see that there are plenty of other companies that have met the same fate as 21C. There is no secretive mystery here. There is no mysterious smoking gun waiting to be discovered. It's pretty black and white.

WAL-MART is a double edged sword and you are kidding yourself if you think otherwise. It's both a blessing and curse when you are a small independent company. When things are good things are good. But the minute that things get just a little fuzzy and bam! As a business owner your world can change in a matter of weeks. I work with another Toy Company doing package design that was also effected by the shift in WM policy. My point? It is much less of a 21C thing as much as it's a WM thing.

[VMF115]

Zach is right when I took business marketing a few years ago we studied WM business practices, both good and bad. there is a slew of destruction that WM left behind, there are many broken dreams and disappointment in dealing with WM, WM is always changing and when they do make a change its always the manau after that gets the memo last.....

[King O' Fools]

I think 21C could have addressed some quality issues, but lets face it, these were cheap toys and not museum pieces. I think less than 1% of what they put out was truly unacceptable. That is a pretty darn good quality record for most industries, nevertheless toys. KOF aside I think most of us have been pleased with the vast majority of our purchases.

Don't you just love the smell of a burning straw man in the morning?

So it's either a crappy cheap toy or a prohibitive museum piece? El Cheapo Knockoff Toys, Inc. vs HpH, Ltd.? Talk about a false dichotomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma).

Sorry to burst your bubble, buddy, but 21st had some serious QC issues which were simply undeniable (and unacceptable for any adult collectible, whether cheap or not, period).

I hate to think what kind of QC procedures your own hypothetical (toy) company would have in place if you were the one calling the shots with that sort of anything goes attitude.

But before you start calling me names (again), let's not get too personal, m'kay?

[VMF115]

KOF "Here we ago again same ole $hit again"

I am happy with all of my 21st stuff

[King O' Fools]

KOF "Here we ago again same ole $hit again"

I am happy with all of my 21st stuff

Well, maybe you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills, because from a casual perusal of this thread I can tell you in no uncertain terms that it was your firend Oli who came a-knockin' on my door.

BTW, I'm glad you like all your "toys" from 21st (maybe it is because you actually had a chance to visually examine each one of them before you actually purchased them). Too bad they're gone under because of poor management. Now, if you'll excuse me while I reach for my quantum violin....

Again, weren't you the guy who said a few months back that we here on this board were single-handedly killing the XD line because of our whining?

Funny, because I could have sworn it was you.

(And yes, you could do away with the gratuitious expletives too.)

[VMF115]

about 95 percent of my stuff was sent through the mail

I my not live in spain but where I live is a black hole when it comes to anything 1/18th.

[VMF115]

KOF ... I sure did was but there is a right way to whine and a wrong way to whine. I am sure TKO would have helped you out if you gave him the chance...Sure he my not get back to people right away but due to his busy schedule and other engagements but I bet he would have helped you out!

[c44]

End of round, back to your corners...Back to the subject at hand: Well spoken, TKO...

[norman888]

That's my opinion is all, but I really think blaming WM is too easy... Their distribution of THIS line sucks, no doubt, but 21st's to blame in part too. t

I might agree with you but WM generally tells a vendor what they want and how they want it.

Wal-Mart definately killed 21C.

[Grilledcheese]

You know, guys, we love our 1/18 toys, but it very likely could be that there simply isn't a large enough market for this stuff. Toys-R-Us and WallyWorld agreed to carry 21st. Lots of product got put on clearance because it didn't sell. 21st gets dropped and goes kaput---twice, no less, in two different scales.
I never had any serious quality control issues with any of the literally hundreds of 21st products I've bought in the last decade, 1/6 or 1/18, especially considering the prices of the product. Some people have. In the long run I really don't think it mattered. There just aren't enough interested consumers to support the amount of product 21st was trying to move.

Or maybe not...


Jeffrey

[STUKA]

I love reading all the opinions on here - I think we could have....just ...saved....her.

as for quality issues - sure there were plenty of problems - but so does every other toy company in my opinion - Starwars - springs in the missle launchers that dont work as well - landing skids - that dont last, paint jobs, etc.

GiJoe - paint jobs - some of the same above -
Transformers - well the new toys are horrible - fall apart - poor instructions - too many loose pieces that dont stay on - cheap plastic joints etc.

I think for the most all the compaines do their best to make the fans happy - we witnessed Hasbro fix some structural problems with the big walkers and mail out replacement parts -
For example I bought a barbie and Horse for my daughter last night - and she was almost in tears with frustration the morning - all the small things like straps for the helmet and horse started snapping or pulling out of tiny holes resulting in play as seen on theback of the box near impossible.

But to put things in perspective Im sure just the management in Hasbro's quality control dwarf 21st's whole entire crew including their lawn care.

I have called 21st in the past about a broken MG42 on the Tiger and did get a replacement - but understand that requesting a replacement for every found problem - would be the same as contacting Hasbro on every bad paint application on GiJoe -
KOFs I hear your frustration in not having the ability to see your product before the purchase. It would drive me mad to live in a location that isnt considered a market for the 21st product - forcing me to pay high shipping charges too. But for 21st to fix every flaw sent to out of market locations would be magic in my eyes. But as customer friendly as that sounds - it would also be a money drain and one of the many nails in the coffin for a small business. Honestly the retailer who sold the product already bought the items from 21st and would be in a better position to send you a replacement as long as the item wasnt taken out of the box.

As for WM - ...Hi mom!
who knows the fine print in the deal. Did it keep 21st from using other stores until the quota was delivered or sold? Did it limit 21st into what they could and could not make? Was an A-10 not made because of some fine print - did they make 21st employees wear kilts to important meetings? who knows....But WM kept 21st alive - remember there were already problems with 21st before WM's "help. I'm sure the 21st crew was fully aware of the possibilities, and all the pros and cons to the deal - but the hike in oil and economy problems probably forced a lot of people to make business choices that made business very difficult for 21st. We still got the 88 during this time but I'm sure all the details and papers signed occured before the economy problems.

It appears 21st did some good things in the end - we have a newly named company selling 21st items and new items comming out - I doubt they will make many of the same business mistakes 21st made - but they will make some mistakes - quality control will still be an issue - its just part of the bidness'

Keep the comments comming this was a great read -
Picklehaub is probably thinking he should hire the whole crew to start his own business -

[aferguson]

KOF: why do you have to be so abrasive and defensive all the time?? Nobody was calling you names. You were mentioned in one post as being disatisfied with the QC of many 21c products....which is an undeniable truth.

Instead of making an unemotional post, stating your point of view, you immediately go on the attack (again) with snide litlle remarks and insults.

Stop being so f**ing insecure and get a grip.

If you don't think you can do that, then maybe you should reconsider being a member here. I've had it with you.

capiche?

[Jesse James]

I might agree with you but WM generally tells a vendor what they want and how they want it.

Wal-Mart definately killed 21C.

I think you guys place way too much blame on the WM excuse... They didn't help, not by a longshot, but companies have dealt with them successfully and 21st could've as well I believe. They didn't adjust though, at all.

WM didn't tell 21st to never adjust case assortments. And WM didn't say, "We only want these paint schemes of these planes to ship over and over and over"... The way WM works internally is automatic renewal... It was 21st's job to improve assortments.

Now WM did a myriad of stupid things that hurt the line too... I know one Christmas they had a ton of XD stuff (Avengers, PAK-40's, Hanomag variants, etc.) and it NEVER went to the sales floor, then hit automatic clearance in January back in Lawn & Garden... THAT is WM screwing up in a huge way. But they simply aren't 100% at fault. I think it's more along the lines of 50/50 between the two. WM sucks though, so don't think I'm not on that side too.

I know some of you guys want to blame it all on WM and it's understandable because they're not easy to deal with all the time, their distribution p'd off many here (myself included, I missed a lot of things as well), but they dont' tell the manufacturer NOT to adjust cases... That's simply not true.

Like I said though, my opinion is 21st needed to build a less expensive base line that is easier to get to retail financially, and focused less on the larger ticket items (a few a year, tops, including repaints)... That's a pyramid type model that works for lines like this... Action figures are the anchor, small to mid-size items in the $10 to $25 range are the next tier, and anything over $30 is risky at retail and needs to be dealt with on a much more cautious level. Then adjust for the retail environment so you hopefully avoid huge back-ups.

Don't get me wrong, I love(d) 21st's stuff, and I really actually loathe WM, but I've got more than a little experience in both businesses and fault cannot be put to one or the other here. They both sucked at things that they needed to do better.

And for the record I always loved the stuff I got. QC issues or not, I was always pleased with a 21st item once they got out of the lame angle-cut articulation. This was the only thing I put a lot into besides SW collecting for the past 18 years or so.

[tko211]

21C certainly had it's own issues. I am not at all dismissing them. But the question was posted as this: What caused 21c to go under?

That answer is very simple and frankly has almost 100% to do with WM. It's not even really WM fault per say. I don't think WM started it's day one morning saying what can we do to ruin companies today... IT was a larger shift in buying strategy and 21C happened to be part of that cut.

Where 21C is to blame in their biggest demise was not over QC, or selection, or price point or anything like that. Yes those are all issues in and of themselves but the REAL BIG nail in the coffin is when you have all your eggs in a BIG BIG basket and the rung get pulled out from under you.

21C obviously understood the danger in having only one retail account and worked tirelessly to get into TRU, TARGET, K-MART and others. TRU showed signs of growing and TARGET never got out of a trial mode before things fell apart. Those efforts are not achieved overnight. The TRU revisit took 2+ years to get back in. Target was almost 3 years and K-Mart asked for lots of samples, looked and plans and never pulled the trigger. I know all of this because I was asked at times to make new package concepts to attract these retailers and I went the rounds over the years to help try to win business.

MY point is simply that 21c tried VERY hard. When the day is done it simply does in fact come down to WM pulling out, and the fact that when you are in bed with WM you have to structure your company and it's processes to meet their demands. When WM walked away it became utterly impossible for them to adjust quick enough. So again, we know 21C as having been the big producer with lots of offerings in many scales and at good price points. They tried every day to meet that promise through the means of mass retail.

The only other option is to be a cottage industry / specialty supplier... Like Admiral, Like JSI now! 300 bucks for a F-14 is CRAZY price if you are comparing it to a 21C mass retail business model. But if it's on-line sales or specialty only.... well 300 bucks makes lots of sense from a cost/margin perspective.

So what 21C was is very specific. Why they went out of business is also very specific. Other issues aside. make no mistake that without a large retailer behind them it was simply a top too large to spin.

It's a shame really. On one hand we demanded price. On the other we demanded quality, realism, and detail. They tried to give it all to us! Many times I think they accomplished just that! Yeah there were some stinker products, yes at times quality was disappointing. Distribution was crazy but that had more to do with WM and it's timing of submitting PO agreements and that in turn messed with future project forecasts. All issues.- All together they were but a drop in the well of troubles. A well that in fact singularly is filled with WM (or in the early days was TRU) pulling out, that filled up the rest.

[Dauntless]

Well there it is. Thanks tko.

Damn Wally World!

[tmanthegreat]

Poor business decisions, skipping the QC process, and ignoring their fan base should've been the no.1 choice.

My thoughts on the "21c should have..." question exactly

[NWarty]

Where 21C is to blame in their biggest demise was not over QC, or selection, or price point or anything like that. Yes those are all issues in and of themselves but the REAL BIG nail in the coffin is when you have all your eggs in a BIG BIG basket and the rung get pulled out from under you.

The definitive reason right there.

[digger]

Poor business decisions, skipping the QC process, and ignoring their fan base should've been the no.1 choice.

My thoughts on the "21c should have..." question exactly

Aren't 2 & 3 all under #1?

[norman888]

...but they dont' tell the manufacturer NOT to adjust cases... That's simply not true.

WM tells us how big a carton they want for the shelf, also how many cartons per case and also pallet height!! WM wants to avoid the cost of having to open 4 different cases to get an assortment on the shelves so they make the manufacturer do it. I don't know if this happened to 21C but I have my suspicions.

[vmf214]

My thoughts on the "21c should have..." question exactly

Aren't 2 & 3 all under #1?

If that'd make you happy. But actually no. CIA Huey imo, poor business decision as it was a total friggin' flop when it came out. Announcing countless items way premature and never following thru, poor business practice. Just to name a few examples. QC and ignoring fan base speaks for itself imo.