Who and what should we believe about 21st now?

hotrodrock · Post by **hotrodrock** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:45 pm

Once again, MD has stated in a post in the MD Deals thread that they are simply clearing out their warehouse space and that the sale has nothing at all to do with 21st and that MD has no first hand knowledge of 21st's financial situation.

And yet, other etailers are indicating that 21st is folding up their tent and that the MD items are coming from 21st's liquidation of items in the 21st warehouse. I realize that may just be a marketing ploy to get us to buy from them as oppesed to MD and maybe not.

Really confusing as to what to really believe as everything right now seems to be all speculation with no hard evidence that 21st has folded. I'm going to keep hoping that the KT will suddenly appear out of nowhere and suprise us all. Of course in the meantime, I am constantly checking MD's site which I am sure ia irratating as hell to other etailers.

hworth18 · Post by **hworth18** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:49 pm

That's just it, this is all just speculation. We won't know anything until 21st actually closes its doors or doesn't, but I think all the signs say it will.

Dauntless · Post by **Dauntless** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:08 pm

Yeah, whatever, no use frettin' about it.
Pretty much got everything from 21st they had to offer. I did my small part in their success. Not much more I can do.
It's been fun, it's been real, it's been real fun while it lasted.
Hope they can pull themselves together, if not, oh well thanks for the memories.

tmanthegreat · Post by **tmanthegreat** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:35 pm

We have recieved bits and pieces of info (and a whole lot of panicking) in regards to the situation of 21c. As Hworth18 said above, we cannot know anything for certain unless we get official word from 21c and all the signs currently do not seem too good from our vantage point.

Indicators of 21's troubles have been surfacing since this summer:

* They let Roy Sutherland and the design and marketing team go
* There were rumors of poor management on the part of 21c's executives (rumors that seem very much like fact now)
* The level of new releases dropped off sharply and we only got what was left in the pipeline.
* Increasingly poor QC issues
* The fact that places like TRU and KBs got older figures for clearance prices
* The fact that Wal Mart (21c's main financial backer) has dropped their contract and liquidated any remaining 21c stock.

Part of me wants to say that this is a lot like 2003, when TRU droped its first contract with 21c and they nearly went under. That was actually during steady economic times, however, and now things are worse. Heck if the banks, auto manufacturers, and major retail companies are having trouble, little (and poorly managed) companies like 21c also do not have much of a chance.

Personally, I am not up in arms and panicking like a number of other board members. While I love 21c's products, my life is not dependent on them. It is sad to see 21c's troubles, but I will go on with life, and have a ton of planes, tanks, and figures to remember the good times with

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:41 pm

Very good points tmanthegreat.

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:00 pm

jeez I am sorry that I tried to get some of you to do something....

It's true that life will go on but the thought of loosing a company that helped established the 1/18th line hurts a bit.....

chunks · Post by **chunks** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:29 pm

VMF115 wrote:jeez I am sorry that I tried to get some of you to do something....

It's true that life will go on but the thought of loosing a company that helped established the 1/18th line hurts a bit.....

Nothing to be sorry about. The possibility of losing a major player in this hobby is not a good one. But what can we do beyond buying what they release that we like?

coreystinson · Post by **coreystinson** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:55 pm

hotrodrock wrote: And yet, other etailers are indicating that 21st is folding up their tent and that the MD items are coming from 21st's liquidation of items in the 21st warehouse. I realize that may just be a marketing ploy to get us to buy from them as oppesed to MD and maybe not.

That's pretty silly. It's clear that if MD is liquidating inventory that the customer is going to go where the best price is. There isn't going to be anything said to circumvent that.

hotrodrock wrote: meantime, I am constantly checking MD's site which I am sure ia irratating as hell to other etailers.

I'm not really that bothered. What I have left is selling, and I don't have a whole warehouse full of 21st Century inventory any more anyway as I started paring it down last summer when an obvious slowdown was observed.

FieroDude · Post by **FieroDude** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:06 pm

And I stand by the theory that if 21st IS gone or going, Smalljoes nnd others will have no problem selling their stock at regular full price once the MD sale is done. I am sure MD's sales is getting some new people hooked that will want to go back and fill in things they missed out on. Just like those of us who would order stuff on-line if we couldn't find it locally, even if it cost more, other etailers will do just fine - and they will turn what should be a decent profit on their stock, not break even or just above it. If MD is selling their own stock (and that is a huge IF - who sits on that much stock, especially when they didn't have most of it on their website at all 3 weeks ago?), then they are definitely not making much, if anything, on it.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:13 pm

I sell 21C and have thier last stock list. its funny that every single thing they have at MD site is the only things 21C has left in stock. there is no doubt 21C is using MD to help liquidate inventory. MD's prices are below wholesale price. even at the largest discount 21C has ever offered. they are still below that. its one thing to move inventory but 50 to 70 % below wholesale pricing NO WAY! THey would be stupid! I talked to one of my distributors and there is no doubt 21C is trying to cut costs by closing thier AZ warehouse and just using northern california now. This doesnt mean they are done but just in trouble. i spoke with M.Cordero just a few days ago of course he was very closed lipped. but he couldnt explain nor did he try to. why they have no stock.

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:34 pm

so it seems that the situation is bad but not terminal.....yet. Warehouse space is probably expensive to rent and a bunch of inventory sitting there, moving slowly is probably cheaper to blow out than transport to Ca. where it will still sit, costing more money. So they blow out several hundred items and raise some quick cash in the process to pay the bills for a while.

For all we know the KT production has already been paid for and part of this money is to cover interest on bank loans. Maybe not.

But regardless, i don't think they're done quite yet and hopefully with a bit of luck and some well thought out repaint releases and the KT they can struggle through and start to prosper again, in time. They have proven remarkably resiliant over the years.

They really, really need a mass retailer..although AT and now BBI seems to get along fine without one.

Anyway, i'm starting to eye the Matorro King Tiger, so i hope we get some news soon. If they 21c KT isn't here by summer i'm taking the plunge..

Jesse James · Post by **Jesse James** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:54 pm

My belief, and this has always been my belief, is until you read that they've filed for bankruptcy and they're liquidating in a reliable news source (which is not an only retailing website), or until an official from the company comes in to tell you the scoop (and it's a verifiable member of the company), then you shouldn't believe speculation and conjecture... That's all that's out there right now on this situation.

Monkey Depot and nobody else out there has the answer here... So speculation is all there is, and how informed said speculation is, is of much debate.

Until something's officially said BY the company, I'm not paying attention to the rampant "21st is going away!" claims. Maybe MD is just really wanting out of 1:18 scale stuff? Maybe they see it as a dying hobby, and they need to move things fast for a variety of reasons? All their stuff they're moving is current stock... Like I pointed out before, they sold out of a ton of D-Day figures, but it was all the pegwarmers, so does that mean 21st unloaded just a bunch of D-Day tankers to MD? Nah, that fits in line with what they said... That they're cleaning out THEIR warehouse to make room.

My guess right now is that 21st is 21st, and slow, if they have a pulse at all... Nothing new. MD is maybe dumping 1:18 as a scale they're interested in carrying. 1:32/1:35 seem more popular, as does 1:6, so can you blame 'em?

No sense freaking about it though. I'm just enjoying the deals, and if the 1:18 pipe runs dry and 21st is dead, then at least we've got FOV and BBI (to an extent) to maybe keep it going. Maybe other companies at some point too... You never know.

Timbo · Post by **Timbo** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:24 pm

For those of you that have never actually been to Monkey Depot the place is a repository for 21st 1/18 and smaller stuff so it's not a suprise that they've got a ton of merchandise to clear out. They do this type of sale every year. Speculate away.

Gusthebus · Post by **Gusthebus** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:48 am

I just received my 88 and on the back of the box is a picture of the KT. Is there any way we could use any of our connections here on the board to find out if this is ever going to be released?

I'm not talking about bothering 21c about their current financial state or even asking for a date of release for the KT but I would be happy just knowing that it is going to be released eventually someday.

Maybe 21c is selling off stock at MD to try and pay for the KT?

Col.Pickle · Post by **Col.Pickle** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:32 am

VMF115 wrote:jeez I am sorry that I tried to get some of you to do something....

Care to explain?

VMF115 · Post by **VMF115** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:36 am

Col.Pickle wrote:
VMF115 wrote:jeez I am sorry that I tried to get some of you to do something....

Care to explain?

trying to get folks to write to WM.......

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:09 pm

Obviously someone is selling at a loss, and I don't think it is MD. Tman summed up the 21C state of affairs nicely and JJ's statement makes sense as well. Everyone is cutting overhead right now and closing a DC would make sense for 21C. There is a hard cost to concolidating inventory locations and they may have decided to sell at a loss rather than pay shipping costs. Of course this would hirt their relationship with their other dealers, but you do what you have to do. I don't buy tat MD had thousands of 21C in inventory though. I have always thoght 1/6 was their core business unlike other etailers. Despite all our speculation there is not much to do but wait and see. And buy like hell from MD!

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:37 pm

Holy crap my spelling stinks! I am not dumb, just posting using my Crackberry!

Post by **aferguson** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:44 pm

it's a sort of 'win win' situation, i guess. By selling at a loss through MD you raise some operating capital and at the same time save the shipping costs of moving it all to another warehouse (although the shipping would probably only have been a few hundred to move it all).

I think the main reason they did it is they need cash now. To pay bills, pay creditors or maybe just to have some get away cash.

It's clearly a very bad sign and i doubt it has anything to do with raising money for the KT. I am hoping by some miracle that production run has already been paid for and this crisis to raise cash happened subsequently....but i think i'm dreaming.

I don't know if the volume that MD sold would represent everything 21c had left in that warehouse or not. If so, they really didn't have all that much product left, considering production runs would be in the thousands.

Our best hope for the KT now lies in 21c pulling another rabbit out of their hat and staying afloat through this time until they can start to recover and order production once again.

We're all rooting for you 21c!

olifant · Post by **olifant** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:00 pm

aferguson wrote:it's a sort of 'win win' situation, i guess. By selling at a loss through MD you raise some operating capital and at the same time save the shipping costs of moving it all to another warehouse (although the shipping would probably only have been a few hundred to move it all).

I think the main reason they did it is they need cash now. To pay bills, pay creditors or maybe just to have some get away cash.

It's clearly a very bad sign and i doubt it has anything to do with raising money for the KT. I am hoping by some miracle that production run has already been paid for and this crisis to raise cash happened subsequently....but i think i'm dreaming.

I don't know if the volume that MD sold would represent everything 21c had left in that warehouse or not. If so, they really didn't have all that much product left, considering production runs would be in the thousands.

Our best hope for the KT now lies in 21c pulling another rabbit out of their hat and staying afloat through this time until they can start to recover and order production once again.

We're all rooting for you 21c!

Truckload of shipping class 55 (plastic pellets) from TX to WA is about $4500 with a great corporate rate. I am guessing you could fit 40 pallets of holding an average of 75 1/18 pieces totalling 3000 pieces from AZ to CA for the same price. These would be a more expensive shipping class and 21C would not get my negotiated rate. How many pieces did MD sell? two or three truckloads? Probably saved $15-20K in shipping and handling and if you are capital poor turning this expense into sales $s makes sense. Also, the loss will be a 2009 tax write off.

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:22 pm

hworth18 wrote:That's just it, this is all just speculation. We won't know anything until 21st actually closes its doors or doesn't, but I think all the signs say it will.

I believe i have some proof that 21C is using MD as thier close out at the AZ warehouse as Ive said before!
I ordered some marders "heidei" from MD and they arrived today in four star military target exclusive boxes. this proves they are selling off the 21C Arizona wharehouse stuff. even the 21C shipping boxes are stamped "TARGET EXCLUSIVE ONLY!" the heidei was a WM & Target only item. so conspiracy? no way!

gustav · Post by **gustav** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:18 pm

Interesting box story...I wish we could get a least a one sentence statement from 21st as to what is going on with the MD liquidation.

Sky Ray · Post by **Sky Ray** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:09 pm

Read this thread over at the Treefrog Treasures Toy Soldier forums, "21st Century - Rumors Persist!"

Stug45 · Post by **Stug45** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:24 pm

AMERICAN_GRENADIER wrote:
hworth18 wrote:That's just it, this is all just speculation. We won't know anything until 21st actually closes its doors or doesn't, but I think all the signs say it will.
I believe i have some proof that 21C is using MD as thier close out at the AZ warehouse as Ive said before!
I ordered some marders "heidei" from MD and they arrived today in four star military target exclusive boxes. this proves they are selling off the 21C Arizona wharehouse stuff. even the 21C shipping boxes are stamped "TARGET EXCLUSIVE ONLY!" the heidei was a WM & Target only item. so conspiracy? no way!

How does foxhole toys carry & sell the target exclusive bravo team stuff?
http://store.foxholetoys.com/118.html

Wouldn't target & Unimax be mad?

AMERICAN_GRENADIER · Post by **AMERICAN_GRENADIER** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:48 pm

Foxhole toys buys many items from large retailers and resells them
i know this since i once bought a few items 1/48 scale that still had walmart stickers on them

Small Scale Military Headquarters

Who and what should we believe about 21st now?

Who and what should we believe about 21st now?

Re: Who and what should we believe about 21st now?